If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?

Started Aug 10, 2013 | Discussions
Rod McD
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

I think that a Sony NEX FF would affect Fuji sales, but not emphatically if the price is as high as I think it will be (around $3K). If it's any good, it might have more of an effect on Leica! I'm one potential buyer who's waiting to see what Sony's FF looks like, and judging by other posts, I'm not alone.......

The Fuji XPro1 is undoubtedly a premium product but it isn't in that price league. Nevertheless, there will be some buyers who would both prefer FF and have the ability to afford it. Some key and as yet unknown factors are the design of the camera and the lens options that go with it. Obviously it has to appeal to an individual buyer as well as be affordable, and the lens system has to meet their needs.

I suspect that the same market forces that operate with DSLRs to push mpx and sensor size upward will operate in the mirror-less market. If the Sony camera sells well, I suspect Fuji will respond. We already know that they are considering an FF development. It looks from all the conjecture like Sony will be first. Fuji will watch and wait, but if it's good business, you can bet your boots they'll respond with their own model. That may not happen in the current economic situation.

BTW, would people please stop saying that all FF cameras are bigger and that all FF lenses are bigger. - It's getting like some sort of religion here in DPR despite all evidence to the contrary. It's simply not true all the time. The APSC X Pro1 is bigger (wider and higher) than a FF Leica. And there many FF lenses out there that are no bigger (and some are smaller) than similar APSC lenses. And that includes some AF lenses of reasonable speed - eg the Contax G lenses. Just consign the 'FF is bigger' mantra to the bin, at least if you're talking bodies and prime mirror-less lenses. It's all a matter of design. I acknowledge that fast 24-70 & 70-200 zooms and very long FF tele lenses are big, but if you're planning to use them, you're better off with a DSLR anyway.

Rod

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Keit ll
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Rod McD, Aug 12, 2013

I agree Rod on the issue of camera size & FF. The impact of a Sony FF is difficult to predict as far as Fuji sales go.

It might actually put them up as many  are going to be frustrated over Sony FF prices & if Fuji respond with a PRO-2 & XE -2 then sales could go up ! I Think Fuji should aim to improve resolution by having a new sensor in the region of 20 MP.

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sgoldswo
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

To add to it the rumours and these seem substantial and very likely given the AF system of the A99 is that Sony has developed a PDAF sensor system much like the Canon 70D's. Canon appears to have gotten to market first.

So what if that FF Nex had the first proper mirrorless AF system that was equal or better than DSLR in all ways?

That certainly sweetens the deal and seems to be the one last reason people get a DSLR over mirrorless - the AF is better in DSLRs. That seems to be about to change. Even if only Canon releases an updated EOS M mirrorless with their new dual pixel sensor tech for super AF performance. Someone is going to win big market share here.

Fuji's best hope on good AF performance is if Sony sells these new super AF sensors to them for use in X series. I imagine they will.

Greg.

I'm not convinced the on sensor PDAF canon has developed is equal to normal PDAF. If it is, why introduce it in a DSLR that has no need of the mirror? A fair amount of money says that normal PDAF is still faster on the 70D and that in on sensor PDAF mode the 70D has crappy high ISO performance...

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sgoldswo
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FF is larger
In reply to Rod McD, Aug 12, 2013

Rod McD wrote:

BTW, would people please stop saying that all FF cameras are bigger and that all FF lenses are bigger. - It's getting like some sort of religion here in DPR despite all evidence to the contrary. It's simply not true all the time. The APSC X Pro1 is bigger (wider and higher) than a FF Leica.

But the M9 is considerably heavier than an X-pro1 as are its lenses. In addition all of the lenses are primes that aren't that big on FF DSLRs. Even if a FF body were to be tiny (RX1 sized) it would still have to have proportionately larger lenses than an APS-C camera to cover the sensor. Once the lenses get bigger you might as well have a larger body. Have you seen a Leica M240 with an R zoom mounted? It looks ridiculous.

And there many FF lenses out there that are no bigger (and some are smaller) than similar APSC lenses. And that includes some AF lenses of reasonable speed - eg the Contax G lenses.

No. That simply isn't true. Lens designers still have to obey the laws of physics. So in a lens design that was otherwise identical but one version was designed to cover APS-C and one FF, the FF lens would be larger. It has to be, it's covering a larger sensor.

The only way to get FF lenses smaller will be to reduce the optical performance or to reduce the maximum aperture. See Voigtlanders SLII line of pancakes for FF DSLRs. They sacrifice corner performance at wider apertures and are generally slower in order to be smaller.

Just consign the 'FF is bigger' mantra to the bin, at least if you're talking bodies and prime mirror-less lenses. It's all a matter of design.

FF IS bigger - that's a fact. A FF lens on a non-DSLR camera can be smaller than a FF lens for a DSLR, but not by that much (it goes more to reducing width than length). Neither will be as small as a comparable lens for a non-DSLR camera with an APS-C sensor.

I acknowledge that fast 24-70 & 70-200 zooms and very long FF tele lenses are big, but if you're planning to use them, you're better off with a DSLR anyway.

Rod

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Rod McD
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Re: FF is larger?
In reply to sgoldswo, Aug 12, 2013

sgoldswo wrote:

But the M9 is considerably heavier than an X-pro1 as are its lenses. In addition all of the lenses are primes that aren't that big on FF DSLRs. Even if a FF body were to be tiny (RX1 sized) it would still have to have proportionately larger lenses than an APS-C camera to cover the sensor. Once the lenses get bigger you might as well have a larger body. Have you seen a Leica M240 with an R zoom mounted? It looks ridiculous.

I agree that the M9 is heavier than the XP1, but the fact remains that it's also slightly smaller. As is the RX1, though I acknowledge that it doesn't have a BIEVF. In practice I don't care a few millimetres either way - no-one does - but we're discussing a principle. What you're seeing is that the body designed around the sensor is as important in determining camera size as the sensor itself.

I'd agree that of two identical mirror-less cameras - one an APSC and the other adjusted only to take an FF sensor, the FF would be larger. However, the world isn't like that and manufacturers don't all choose to minimise size. I'll lay a friendly bet that the Sony FF NEX will be smaller and lighter than both the X Pro1 and the Leica.

I agree about the use of large DSLR lenses on mirror-less cameras. I can't see the point at all. I plan to use mirror-less primes for my WA lenses and for standard and up, my small DSLR lenses will be fine.

And there many FF lenses out there that are no bigger (and some are smaller) than similar APSC lenses. And that includes some AF lenses of reasonable speed - eg the Contax G lenses.

No. That simply isn't true. Lens designers still have to obey the laws of physics. So in a lens design that was otherwise identical but one version was designed to cover APS-C and one FF, the FF lens would be larger. It has to be, it's covering a larger sensor.

The only way to get FF lenses smaller will be to reduce the optical performance or to reduce the maximum aperture. See Voigtlanders SLII line of pancakes for FF DSLRs. They sacrifice corner performance at wider apertures and are generally slower in order to be smaller.

Sorry, but I mentioned the Contax G AF FF lenses...... In what way is it not true? I think your theoretical point is true - the laws of physics relate to the glass. However, a lot of lens design is also in the mechanics that surround the glass. Contax (and Pentax in relation to DSLRs) have shown that it's very possible to make some AF FF FLs quite small without sacrificing performance.

Yes there is a general slowing of maximum aperture as you go up in format size. But what's the reality? There are legions of wide AF FF lenses with f2.8, standard AF FF lenses with f1.4, and short tele AF FF lenses with f2, and all with 49mm filters and modest weight. I'm very happy with the combo of high res, large sensor, small size and those speeds. Others won't be. Slower and smaller doesn't mean poorer performance if they're high grade designs. And don't forget that other aspects of IQ are often sacrificed for a fast maximum aperture.

FF IS bigger - that's a fact. A FF lens on a non-DSLR camera can be smaller than a FF lens for a DSLR, but not by that much (it goes more to reducing width than length). Neither will be as small as a comparable lens for a non-DSLR camera with an APS-C sensor.

Like I said, FF may or may not be bigger. It depends whether a manufacturer chooses to build a small design or a larger one. I'd prefer an FF MILC over an APSC one the same physical size.

If you accept that FF delivers better IQ (and I don't feel the need to justify that here) I think the real issue is the size of the whole kit. I'm talking about a mirror-less body and, for me, a few prime lenses. I really don't believe that the difference between a small FF mirror-less and say three or four primes will be significantly greater than an APSC kit with equivalent lenses. The difference will be minor as long as the FLs and speeds aren't extreme.

Cheers, Rod

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57even
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Nothing at all.
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

Why do I want a camera larger or heavier than the Xpro1 for three times the cost?

If Fuji make one they will lose even more money, just like Sony will.

The market for such cameras is miniscule.

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uniball
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Rod McD, Aug 12, 2013

Rod McD wrote:

I think that a Sony NEX FF would affect Fuji sales, but not emphatically if the price is as high as I think it will be (around $3K). If it's any good, it might have more of an effect on Leica! I'm one potential buyer who's waiting to see what Sony's FF looks like, and judging by other posts, I'm not alone.......

The Fuji XPro1 is undoubtedly a premium product but it isn't in that price league. Nevertheless, there will be some buyers who would both prefer FF and have the ability to afford it. Some key and as yet unknown factors are the design of the camera and the lens options that go with it. Obviously it has to appeal to an individual buyer as well as be affordable, and the lens system has to meet their needs.

I suspect that the same market forces that operate with DSLRs to push mpx and sensor size upward will operate in the mirror-less market. If the Sony camera sells well, I suspect Fuji will respond. We already know that they are considering an FF development. It looks from all the conjecture like Sony will be first. Fuji will watch and wait, but if it's good business, you can bet your boots they'll respond with their own model. That may not happen in the current economic situation.

BTW, would people please stop saying that all FF cameras are bigger and that all FF lenses are bigger. - It's getting like some sort of religion here in DPR despite all evidence to the contrary. It's simply not true all the time. The APSC X Pro1 is bigger (wider and higher) than a FF Leica. And there many FF lenses out there that are no bigger (and some are smaller) than similar APSC lenses. And that includes some AF lenses of reasonable speed - eg the Contax G lenses. Just consign the 'FF is bigger' mantra to the bin, at least if you're talking bodies and prime mirror-less lenses. It's all a matter of design. I acknowledge that fast 24-70 & 70-200 zooms and very long FF tele lenses are big, but if you're planning to use them, you're better off with a DSLR anyway.

Rod

Well said. But it does raise the question why, in rangefinder forums are there more and more discerning photographers shooting Fuji's with Leica glass? Same on the Leica forums. Same on the FujiX forum (often pros).  Did they go out and buy a Fuji and then buy a bunch of very expensive lenses for it? Or did the lenses precede the Fuji. The latter would be my bet.

If I had a closet stuffed with an easy $10k+ worth of glass, does the cost of a new body really dissuade me from upgrading. Or, have these FF people already come to the conclusion the difference is not material to them?

No response needed but I already made my choice. My last three cameras were an X100, a D800 and an XE-1. I had been shooting Nikons for almost 40 years. The D800 was not mine, it was with me for 3 weeks and used/evaluated a lot before being handed over to a friend I bought it for. Cost -- irrelevant for me. Lenses, I already had them.  An XE-1 was ordered and all my Nikon gear has subsequently been sold.

FF cameras are expensive. It strikes me as odd that on a thread where price comes up constantly, FF is the holy grail. Yet with people where price is not an obstacle, people are moving from FF to APS.

FF cameras tend to be solid performers, its reflected in the cost. It can't be just the sensor as the Fuji's stand up quite well in many FF comparisons.  Buy the camera, the sensor is only one variable of many that come together to offer a good photographer the tool he needs. For those who believe FF, in and of itself, will help their photography, buy a medium format.

As far as Fuji is concerned, I think they can afford to lose a few cost concious buyers to a FF Sony and Sony's lens line-up.

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JackM
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It would have to be a very Un-Sony Sony.
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

That is, it would have to be designed more like a traditional camera, and not so much like a futuristic gadget/appliance like the NEXs.

But this is not beyond the realm of possibility - the RX1 is halfway there with its proper aperture ring. It's still missing a shutter speed dial and OVF though.

Even so, it would surely cost at least $2000 for the body only, so it wouldn't really be in the same market. And using Alpha mount lenses will be a size and weight disadvantage.

Fuji will not be making a FF mirrorless any time in the foreseeable future.  The X-system is their top-shelf offering and that is that.  They will not do anything to dilute its market or distract from it.

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Les Berkley
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

 But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors.

The difference in EyeCue(tm) would be equal to that between the D600 and D7100, which is to say, invisible on any reasonable size print or large monitor. Yes, you could pixel-peep images at ISO 6400 and find some differences, but otherwise I defy you to pick the "full-frame" from the "crop sensor" on a blind test.

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docvale
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

Since I haven't read the entire thread, I apologize whether my considerations have already been discussed by other members. Anyway, here there's my perspective.

I'd start with a big IF.... IF the FF Nex is going to be as the rumors say or not. If yes (slightly larger than the Nex7, IBIS, working well with rangefinder lenses - including WA - around $3k for the body), I think it would do nothing to the Fuji X market, but it would do something to the Leica M body market.

It wouldn't harm the X platform since it'd be on another category, price-wise and usage-wise. At the launch, even if supported by 2 Zeiss lenses (as another rumors says), the collection of FF e-mount compatible lens would be just made of manual focus ones (Samyang, SLR Magic and so on). A nice arsenal, but not sufficient to a AF user.

If the FF AF lens crowd would grow rapidly (i.e., exciting roadmap announced with the camera body), it would be successful also if the performance with WA rangefinder lenses were not at Leica level.

Finally, Fuji X cameras use Sony sensors. I would expect Fuji to jump on the train quite rapidly.

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Astrophotographer 10
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In reply to 57even, Aug 12, 2013

I doubt the market is minscule. DSLRs and FF DSLR sales were one of the brighter spots in camera sales this year so far.

There are a lot of Nex owners, much more than X cameras (no doubt due to marketing, the "Sony" brand which inspires confidence).

Not everyone likes lugging a large and heavy DSLR/lens around and smaller but same performance would be appealling to many if at a reasonably price. I can see a lot of current Nex 7 owners upgrading and a number of Canikon FF DSLR owners seriously considering one. Profitable? Look at long term trends. Aptina CEO says larger sensors are the trend for the future. DSLRs may even make a foray into medium format and mirrorless tend to dominate FF is a possible future scenario.

Greg.

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jfriend00
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In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Look at long term trends. Aptina CEO says larger sensors are the trend for the future. DSLRs may even make a foray into medium format and mirrorless tend to dominate FF is a possible future scenario.

Uhhh, the quote I saw from the Aptina CEO referred to 1" sensors as "large" sensors and was talking about moving the compact and P&S market up to 1" sensors.  This may have been as much of a self serving promotion (promoting their own 1" sensors) as an actual trend based on market data (hard to know).  I didn't seen any Aptina reference to FF sensors.

Certainly as costs come down, more price/functionality points become candidates for a FF sensor. But, FF sensors still cost significantly more than APS-C sensors so the customer has to be willing to pay more for the larger sensor's performance than an equivalent system with a smaller sensor in it or accept other feature compromises.  For example, the Nikon D7100 APS-C camera has better features than the Nikon FF D600 (D7100 has a much better AF system), but costs only about 1/2. So, in that case, you have to decide what you want to pay for.  Is the FF of the D600 and the $800 higher price more important to you than the AF of the D7100 with $800 more to invest in lenses.  Similarly, FF lenses may also be more expensive.

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BillyInya
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 12, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

When I see people lumbering around large and heavy cameras and monster lenses I sort of have a bit of a laugh to myself now. I know I shouldn't but I do.

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fluxism
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to BillyInya, Aug 12, 2013

unless we're using the 55-200—then we laugh at ourselves

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NTNphoto
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to uniball, Aug 12, 2013

Rod McD wrote:

I think that a Sony NEX FF would affect Fuji sales, but not emphatically if the price is as high as I think it will be (around $3K). If it's any good, it might have more of an effect on Leica! I'm one potential buyer who's waiting to see what Sony's FF looks like, and judging by other posts, I'm not alone.......

The Fuji XPro1 is undoubtedly a premium product but it isn't in that price league. Nevertheless, there will be some buyers who would both prefer FF and have the ability to afford it. Some key and as yet unknown factors are the design of the camera and the lens options that go with it. Obviously it has to appeal to an individual buyer as well as be affordable, and the lens system has to meet their needs.

I suspect that the same market forces that operate with DSLRs to push mpx and sensor size upward will operate in the mirror-less market. If the Sony camera sells well, I suspect Fuji will respond. We already know that they are considering an FF development. It looks from all the conjecture like Sony will be first. Fuji will watch and wait, but if it's good business, you can bet your boots they'll respond with their own model. That may not happen in the current economic situation.

BTW, would people please stop saying that all FF cameras are bigger and that all FF lenses are bigger. - It's getting like some sort of religion here in DPR despite all evidence to the contrary. It's simply not true all the time. The APSC X Pro1 is bigger (wider and higher) than a FF Leica. And there many FF lenses out there that are no bigger (and some are smaller) than similar APSC lenses. And that includes some AF lenses of reasonable speed - eg the Contax G lenses. Just consign the 'FF is bigger' mantra to the bin, at least if you're talking bodies and prime mirror-less lenses. It's all a matter of design. I acknowledge that fast 24-70 & 70-200 zooms and very long FF tele lenses are big, but if you're planning to use them, you're better off with a DSLR anyway.

Rod

Well said. But it does raise the question why, in rangefinder forums are there more and more discerning photographers shooting Fuji's with Leica glass? Same on the Leica forums. Same on the FujiX forum (often pros).  Did they go out and buy a Fuji and then buy a bunch of very expensive lenses for it? Or did the lenses precede the Fuji. The latter would be my bet.

If I had a closet stuffed with an easy $10k+ worth of glass, does the cost of a new body really dissuade me from upgrading. Or, have these FF people already come to the conclusion the difference is not material to them?

No response needed but I already made my choice. My last three cameras were an X100, a D800 and an XE-1. I had been shooting Nikons for almost 40 years. The D800 was not mine, it was with me for 3 weeks and used/evaluated a lot before being handed over to a friend I bought it for. Cost -- irrelevant for me. Lenses, I already had them.  An XE-1 was ordered and all my Nikon gear has subsequently been sold.

FF cameras are expensive. It strikes me as odd that on a thread where price comes up constantly, FF is the holy grail. Yet with people where price is not an obstacle, people are moving from FF to APS.

FF cameras tend to be solid performers, its reflected in the cost. It can't be just the sensor as the Fuji's stand up quite well in many FF comparisons.  Buy the camera, the sensor is only one variable of many that come together to offer a good photographer the tool he needs. For those who believe FF, in and of itself, will help their photography, buy a medium format.

As far as Fuji is concerned, I think they can afford to lose a few cost concious buyers to a FF Sony and Sony's lens line-up.

The x pro wasn't exactly cheap when it came out. A nikon D600 plus the very highly regarded new 50mm 1.8 G is not much more than the xpro1 plus fuji 35mm 1.4 when originally released. So when that cost argument gets thrown around along with the size argument I just shake my head. I'm willing to bet that the nikon 50 is a better lens than the fuji 50mm equivalent and it costs about $300 less.

A D600 is bigger and marginally heavier than the Fuji but the IQ is better, it has better and more accurate high ISO, and has affordable prime lens options that are very very good. Now slap a 2.8 zoom on the nikon and I agree it is way way bigger and heavier. It's the reason I bought a fuji, for the times when I don't want all that weight, but FF can had cheaply. A refurb D600 + that 50mm 1.8 can be had for about $1800 right now. A case can be made for the oil spot thing, but I haven't had it on mine after over 15k actuations so I think I probably don't have it and can't really comment.

I'm sorry but I have shot my FF Nikon alongside my Fuji X on assignment and quite honestly the FF output was superior at similar ISO. I feel like I keep putting the Fuji down when I really do rather like it, especially with Leica M mount glass in front of it, but there is some serious Fuji fanboyism on this board that is ridiculous. Sure the Fuji cameras are nice and I 100% enjoy using my Fuji more than my Nikon, but from a pure IQ standpoint my nikon is better and that's why I still have it even if I don't love using it.

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57even
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Re: Nothing at all.
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 13, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

I doubt the market is minscule. DSLRs and FF DSLR sales were one of the brighter spots in camera sales this year so far.

Thats because there are a lot more DSLR sales period, and because Nikon and Canon dominate the market.

But APSC DSLRs outsell FF ones by a large margin and are more profitable. Nikon and Canon really pushed the margins with the 6D and D600.

There are a lot of Nex owners, much more than X cameras (no doubt due to marketing, the "Sony" brand which inspires confidence).

Any any effect this will have on Fuji has already happened. An FF NEX will still probably have the same handling and lack of decent lenses.

Not everyone likes lugging a large and heavy DSLR/lens around and smaller but same performance would be appealling to many if at a reasonably price.

Reasonable price? Cameras over $2000 are a tiny percentage of the market.

I can see a lot of current Nex 7 owners upgrading and a number of Canikon FF DSLR owners seriously considering one. Profitable? Look at long term trends. Aptina CEO says larger sensors are the trend for the future. DSLRs may even make a foray into medium format and mirrorless tend to dominate FF is a possible future scenario.

Aptina is talking about large sensors in compact cameras, not FF sensors.

Sony FF NEX will take sales from Canon and Nikon, Alpha and NEX APSC.

Why would they take sales from Fuji? Fuji X will always be smaller and cheaper than NEX FF, and most owners already have (or had) a FF camera.

Fuji Xpro2 will have a 24MP sensor and on-chip CDAF, the same great lenses we have now. Its competing in the APSC space where the volume sales are.

If Fuji divert resources into a FF product and lenses which sell in 10% of the quantity and lower margin, they are not thinking straight.

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Samaistuin
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to BillyInya, Aug 13, 2013

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

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57even
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Samaistuin, Aug 13, 2013

Samaistuin wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Sure I would. I already have a FF camera, I wanted something small and good. Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses and I would have to start a whole new collection... for what? Another stop of DR?

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mr moonlight
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Rod McD, Aug 13, 2013

Rod McD wrote:

I think that a Sony NEX FF would affect Fuji sales, but not emphatically if the price is as high as I think it will be (around $3K). If it's any good, it might have more of an effect on Leica! I'm one potential buyer who's waiting to see what Sony's FF looks like, and judging by other posts, I'm not alone.......

The Fuji XPro1 is undoubtedly a premium product but it isn't in that price league. Nevertheless, there will be some buyers who would both prefer FF and have the ability to afford it. Some key and as yet unknown factors are the design of the camera and the lens options that go with it. Obviously it has to appeal to an individual buyer as well as be affordable, and the lens system has to meet their needs.

I suspect that the same market forces that operate with DSLRs to push mpx and sensor size upward will operate in the mirror-less market. If the Sony camera sells well, I suspect Fuji will respond. We already know that they are considering an FF development. It looks from all the conjecture like Sony will be first. Fuji will watch and wait, but if it's good business, you can bet your boots they'll respond with their own model. That may not happen in the current economic situation.

BTW, would people please stop saying that all FF cameras are bigger and that all FF lenses are bigger. - It's getting like some sort of religion here in DPR despite all evidence to the contrary. It's simply not true all the time. The APSC X Pro1 is bigger (wider and higher) than a FF Leica. And there many FF lenses out there that are no bigger (and some are smaller) than similar APSC lenses. And that includes some AF lenses of reasonable speed - eg the Contax G lenses. Just consign the 'FF is bigger' mantra to the bin, at least if you're talking bodies and prime mirror-less lenses. It's all a matter of design. I acknowledge that fast 24-70 & 70-200 zooms and very long FF tele lenses are big, but if you're planning to use them, you're better off with a DSLR anyway.

Rod

Agree 100%.

Another thing to note about the Fuji X-mount is that it will 100% work with a FF sensor. All you have to do is look at a Leica or Contax mount to see that a smaller mount works fine. Your frame size can even be slightly larger than your mount and it will still work fine. The lenses may need a slightly different design, but there's no reason why the mount itself wouldn't work. If Fuji needs to use a larger flange distance to make FF work, they can work that into the lenses design and keep the existing flange distance for the current line up of glass. They'll just work like Nikon and you'll have either vignetting or an APS-C crop option.

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sgoldswo
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Samaistuin, Aug 13, 2013

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Yes, I would. I need to sell one or two FF cameras, not buy another. Ironically, I think there was a far bigger market for the RX1 than there ever would be for a FF ILC.
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