If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?

Started Aug 10, 2013 | Discussions
CFynn
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to RhysM, Aug 10, 2013

RhysM wrote:

My prediction is one day we'll buy bodies with no sensor at all and the sensor will be built in to the lens. So for example, a super-wide lens will be fitted with a full frame sensor, a telephoto with a micro four thirds, a walk around with an APS-C, etc...

Ricoh already had that idea. I can only see it taking off on a larger scale when the cost of producing sensors falls considerably. You would also neeed to update all your lenses to get the latest sensor technology - instead of just updating the camera body. If the rest of the image processing is still contained in the body it also needs to to be designed to handle a bunch of different lens-sensor modules.

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RhysM
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to CFynn, Aug 10, 2013

All true, but the way sensor manufacturing technology is progressing they will be akin to RAM in a PC, once the most expensive part, now one of the cheapest!

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CFynn
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to RhysM, Aug 10, 2013

RhysM wrote:

All true, but the way sensor manufacturing technology is progressing they will be akin to RAM in a PC, once the most expensive part, now one of the cheapest!

The difference is that RAM gets smaller and smaller - while you can't shrink  a sensor of a given size (though you can cram on more and more pixels)

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RhysM
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to CFynn, Aug 10, 2013

It's just a broad comparison, maybe a more relevant one is PC monitors or TV's a quality IPS panel for professional image editing was a minimum of £600 as little as four years ago, now the same can be bought for £/$200.

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gerard boulanger
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to RhysM, Aug 10, 2013

Sensor bult into the lens? Sensor, whatever its size, has be in the "projection plan" to receive the focused image. That is as we speak, away from the back of the lens.

I guess you mean what has been done by Ricoh.

My prediction is that one day the shutter will disappear while the sensor will capture the image at the proper speed. Speculations.....

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RhysM
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to gerard boulanger, Aug 10, 2013

gerard boulanger wrote:

Sensor bult into the lens? Sensor, whatever its size, has be in the "projection plan" to receive the focused image. That is as we speak, away from the back of the lens.

I guess you mean what has been done by Ricoh.

My prediction is that one day the shutter will disappear while the sensor will capture the image at the proper speed. Speculations.....

Yes, you've taken what i said too literally, i mean a lens/sensor module that mounts to what could be considered in today's language the body of the camera, as opposed to the sensor being within the "lens" itself.

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jfriend00
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

People who want a full frame camera aren't looking at X today.  They'd be shopping for other brands.  The price range, the size, the lens selection are all completely different for full frame vs. APS-C.  If you already knew you wanted full frame, you wouldn't be looking at X today - you'd already would have been shopping elsewhere.  So, I don't think Sony introducing a full frame camera will really affect X sales one way or the other.

Personally I don't think Fuji should dilute their efforts by making a full frame camera.  They'd have to produce an entirely new lens line for the full frame bodies when they haven't even filled out their X lens line yet.  Fuji needs to establish a base of success in the X platform, fill out the lens product line, bring out X-Pro2 and X-E2, solve some of the weaknesses of the X line such as AF speed for action and AF accuracy in low light and then, and only then, should they think about branching out.  As it is today, the X line is a work-in-progress.  It shows promise so far, but still involves a lot of compromises so it is not yet established against the higher performing dSLR world.

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to jfriend00, Aug 10, 2013

To add to it the rumours and these seem substantial and very likely given the AF system of the A99 is that Sony has developed a PDAF sensor system much like the Canon 70D's. Canon appears to have gotten to market first.

So what if that FF Nex had the first proper mirrorless AF system that was equal or better than DSLR in all ways?

That certainly sweetens the deal and seems to be the one last reason people get a DSLR over mirrorless - the AF is better in DSLRs. That seems to be about to change. Even if only Canon releases an updated EOS M mirrorless with their new dual pixel sensor tech for super AF performance. Someone is going to win big market share here.

Fuji's best hope on good AF performance is if Sony sells these new super AF sensors to them for use in X series. I imagine they will.

Greg.

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glacierpete
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Re: Square format sensors
In reply to CFynn, Aug 11, 2013

CFynn wrote:

NJOW wrote:

I'm a fan of the idea of a square sensor too (albeit not knowing how practical it is). It would really make Fuji's offerings stand out form the crowd, when even FF is a bit me too.

With reference to the OP, it read as yet another 'Why aren't Fuji doing FF?" post. There's certainly some danger it becoming one ;-). What did the Sony RX1 do to the X100(s) sales? And should they then do a FF fixed compact version themselves? Seems analogous, although I don't have an answer!

Nick

The square format made a lot of sense with Rollei TLRs, Hassselblads, and the like, because it meant that you could use a lightweight folding waist level finder on those cameras and avoid the use of a large, heavy eye level prism. Given that most people crop their photos to a rectangular format, the costs of making larger sensors, and EVFs, a square sensor doesn't make too much sense now - unless you are one of the few people that likes to make square prints.

I had a 6x7 back on my baby linhof and later a Mamiya 7. 6x7 was a very pleasing format/ratio. Fuji used to make a GSW670 and 645 cameras.

The idea behind a square 24x24 with a 24 or 32mp sensor is to have enough power to slightly crop it to this format. (4:3 or 7:6 ratio).

Built in options for multiple in camera crop modes would be cool. This way the camera could be held in a stable horizontal postion in order to get a vertical image.

Funny thing is Sony filed a patent for a sensor that can be rotated between horizontal and vertical orientation. I think a square sensor with enough power for cropping would be an easier way.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/patent-crazyness-sensor-and-lcd-rotation/

Maybe one day one of the camera makers will introduce a macro (not micro) four thirds sensor, based on a slightly cropped down 24x36 sensor with a 4:3 or 7:6 ratio in order to avoid qualtiy problems with wide angle range finder lenses and cuts down production costs based on the higher waver yield of this format.

Images used commmercially in ads and mags are mostly vertical images and rarely in a 2:3 format.

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NTNphoto
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to uniball, Aug 11, 2013

Depends on the lenses offered at launch. If its anything like the NEX series, probably won't hurt Fuji at all.

Also understand that many do not want an FF sensor. While they have their advantages, the larger body and lens and the less dof one has to work with in low light situations work against FF.

The world of electronics is focused on miniaturization. That's where their R&D is going these days. I feel perfectly comfortable in an APS world. Between my X100 and xe1, I bought a D800 for a friend. Used it about 3 weeks before he picked it up. Fantastic camera but hauling it around was a total drag. Way bigger and heavier than my D80. People have come to realize you don't need to lug around a stone like than to get great IQ. That D800 was the catalyst for my buying the xe1.

Leica makes a very small full frame camera so ill never understand the size argument all the anti FF folks have. The RX1 is very small so it can be done the whole idea that FF always equals larger everything isn't really true. If fuji had designed it that way you could probably fit a FF sensor in the xpro body.

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dotborg
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to glacierpete, Aug 11, 2013

glacierpete wrote:

The professional film format for decades used to be 6x6 (Hasselblad) or 6x7 medium format or 4x5 large format. These formats are great for people, wedding, advertising, editorial, stock, or landscape etc.

The 24x36mm small film format was always considered a bit longish and results from Oskar Barnak cutting movie film rolls for the Leica.

The longish 2:3 or 24x36 in a digital world puts a lot of stress on the outer area of lenses and needs a very good micro lens on the sensor. Sony managed that with it's Nex5n but blew it with the Nex7.

I do have my doubts that a Sony 24x36mm sensor will work with most of existing wide anlge range finder lenses. It does not make a lot of sense for me to put a big DSLR lens and adapter on a small system camera.

I wonder whether Fuji's existing lens line would work with a square 24x24 mm full frame sensor with 16mp or better 24 or 32mp. This would give real a professional "full format" and a lots of room for cropping.

The diagonal of the Fujifilm X-Tranny sensor is ~28.3mm. To fit into that image circle, a square sensor would need to be ~20x20mm.

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mr moonlight
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to dotborg, Aug 11, 2013

There are already quite a few FF sensor cameras on the market. I'm sure they all effect each other in one way or another, but I don't see another camera that's not in direct competition with the Fuji cameras being much more of an issue. If Sony threw on a hybrid viewfinder, manual controls and retro styling, Fuji would definitely feel a hit. Without those features, the cameras are too different.

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dotborg
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What will it do to the sales of their current NEX linup? [nt]
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 11, 2013

nt = no text.

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grumpycat
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Re: What will it do to the sales of their current NEX linup? [nt]
In reply to dotborg, Aug 11, 2013

Exactly! If Fuji releases the X-Pro2, X-E2 what will this do to NEX sales?

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alexzn
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Nothing...
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 11, 2013

This is why those lines are system cameras.  People buy into them long term and only DPR crazies switch systems every 6 months after the new best thing comes in.  The price for switching is too significant for a normal sane person, and for every crazy switcher, there will be a new X-system user, courtesy of E-Bay.

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cosmonaut
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 11, 2013

I doubt it will do much. Most that own the X series are all about the X tran sensor. I think Fuji with its rumored organic sensor will be fine.

Sony appears in their own league right now and their only competition are themselves.

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D Cox
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to glacierpete, Aug 11, 2013

glacierpete wrote:

The professional film format for decades used to be 6x6 (Hasselblad) or 6x7 medium format or 4x5 large format. These formats are great for people, wedding, advertising, editorial, stock, or landscape etc.

The 24x36mm small film format was always considered a bit longish and results from Oskar Barnak cutting movie film rolls for the Leica.

The longish 2:3 or 24x36 in a digital world puts a lot of stress on the outer area of lenses and needs a very good micro lens on the sensor. Sony managed that with it's Nex5n but blew it with the Nex7.

A good proportion would one that matches the A paper sizes.

On the other hand, many people now view their photos on computer monitors or TVs with various wide screen shapes, longer than 2:3.

I do have my doubts that a Sony 24x36mm sensor will work with most of existing wide anlge range finder lenses. It does not make a lot of sense for me to put a big DSLR lens and adapter on a small system camera.

SLR lenses with manual focus and aperture rings work best on the NEX series. Size is not important in practice. DSLR lenses with electronic controls are more trouble than they are worth, in my opinion.

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Al Valentino
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 11, 2013

I suspect an Nex FF would do lilttle to fuji sales. Aside from the difference in DOF the same argument for fuji glass, fuji colors, fuji camera control layout remain the same.  Personally, i have zero interest in the so-called full frame and have no desire to pay more and have heavier lenses to do the same thing. If I wanted FF i would never have left the Nikon family. I already have plenty of pixels, enough to make 16x24 prints and if I need a bigger file I simply shoot a series and stitch. Also, statistics show that the majority of IL cameras are APS not FF.

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uniball
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 11, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Fuji's best hope on good AF performance is if Sony sells these new super AF sensors to them for use in X series. I imagine they will.

Greg.

Have you used an XTrans Fuji with the latest firmware? My non-PADF xe1 feels just as quick as my now departed NEX-7 with the Zeiss.  With the 18, faster and not all that slower than my, also now departed, D80 and a D800 I had for 3 weeks (no, it does not hold a candle to the D800 for rapid shooting).

The slow lens is the 35 and it gets most of the press. Take that out of the equation and Fuji does not need help with AF, they need to replace the 35.

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Samaistuin
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to jfriend00, Aug 12, 2013

jfriend00 wrote:

People who want a full frame camera aren't looking at X today. They'd be shopping for other brands. The price range, the size, the lens selection are all completely different for full frame vs. APS-C. If you already knew you wanted full frame, you wouldn't be looking at X today - you'd already would have been shopping elsewhere. So, I don't think Sony introducing a full frame camera will really affect X sales one way or the other.

Personally I don't think Fuji should dilute their efforts by making a full frame camera. They'd have to produce an entirely new lens line for the full frame bodies when they haven't even filled out their X lens line yet. Fuji needs to establish a base of success in the X platform, fill out the lens product line, bring out X-Pro2 and X-E2, solve some of the weaknesses of the X line such as AF speed for action and AF accuracy in low light and then, and only then, should they think about branching out. As it is today, the X line is a work-in-progress. It shows promise so far, but still involves a lot of compromises so it is not yet established against the higher performing dSLR world.

Fully agree with that.

I'll just add that there surely are people who do hope that Fuji will eventually jump the FF wagon. I'm one of them; wouldn't buy any other brand (besides Leica) for Fuji has been intelligent enough to put an aperture ring on its lenses.

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