If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?

Started Aug 10, 2013 | Discussions
Astrophotographer 10
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If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
Aug 10, 2013

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

gerard boulanger
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

I guess Sony and other brands are more than ever careful about a new line of product under the current market condition.

Even the mirrorless market share went down a lot last quarter... A NEX FF? Good luck

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

It wont look like the X bodies.  It wont have the same shooting experience.  It wont have the same color.

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glacierpete
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

The professional film format for decades used to be 6x6 (Hasselblad) or 6x7 medium format or 4x5 large format. These formats are great for people, wedding, advertising, editorial, stock, or landscape etc.

The 24x36mm small film format was always considered a bit longish and results from Oskar Barnak cutting movie film rolls for the Leica.

The longish 2:3 or 24x36 in a digital world puts a lot of stress on the outer area of lenses and needs a very good micro lens on the sensor. Sony managed that with it's Nex5n but blew it with the Nex7.

I do have my doubts that a Sony 24x36mm sensor will work with most of existing wide anlge range finder lenses. It does not make a lot of sense for me to put a big DSLR lens and adapter on a small system camera.

I wonder whether Fuji's existing lens line would work with a square 24x24 mm full frame sensor with 16mp or better 24 or 32mp. This would give real a professional "full format" and a lots of room for cropping.

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miro3
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales?

reduce them for sure.

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TThorne
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

Obviously it will take some sales away from Fuji, but I am not sure how many. There will be those who don't want to or can't spend $3K on body only. Also, there are those who generally dislike Sony's menus and controls. I can't wait to see what they do though. I expect terrific IQ, but hope for better controls and Leica lens compatibility.

Fuji will end up going there too. Perhaps not soon, but they will. I bet that will be quite a show when they do.

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NJOW
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to glacierpete, Aug 10, 2013

I'm a fan of the idea of a square sensor too (albeit not knowing how practical it is). It would really make Fuji's offerings stand out form the crowd, when even FF is a bit me too.

With reference to the OP, it read as yet another 'Why aren't Fuji doing FF?" post. There's certainly some danger it becoming one ;-). What did the Sony RX1 do to the X100(s) sales? And should they then do a FF fixed compact version themselves? Seems analogous, although I don't have an answer!

Nick

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sgoldswo
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

It might not affect them at all. I'm wondering if this is a bad move by Sony, unless they can produce this for cheaper than the RX1, I think the average person who wants FF will just buy a 6D or D600. Assuming it's in the usual NEX form factor and operating model, I'm just not sure anyone who buys Leica will get one and about the only people I can see buying one is current NEX owners upgrading. That's a small audience.

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uniball
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Depends on the lenses offered at launch. If its anything like the NEX series, probably won't hurt Fuji at all.

Also understand that many do not want an FF sensor. While they have their advantages, the larger body and lens and the less dof one has to work with in low light situations work against FF.

The world of electronics is focused on miniaturization. That's where their R&D is going these days. I feel perfectly comfortable in an APS world. Between my X100 and xe1, I bought a D800 for a friend. Used it about 3 weeks before he picked it up. Fantastic camera but hauling it around was a total drag. Way bigger and heavier than my D80. People have come to realize you don't need to lug around a stone like than to get great IQ. That D800 was the catalyst for my buying the xe1.

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Toccata47
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What's $4,000 minus 1,200?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Nex price estimates I've seen are $4,000 usd. Add in lenses.

Not a lot of folks have made the jump from x100 to rx1 and I doubt many xpro folks will do so.

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

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uniball
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to sgoldswo, Aug 10, 2013

sgoldswo wrote:

It might not affect them at all. I'm wondering if this is a bad move by Sony, unless they can produce this for cheaper than the RX1, I think the average person who wants FF will just buy a 6D or D600. Assuming it's in the usual NEX form factor and operating model, I'm just not sure anyone who buys Leica will get one and about the only people I can see buying one is current NEX owners upgrading. That's a small audience.

Agree. Its probably a tiny audience when you consider that those who may be lured by FF just recently spent a considerable amount of money for the few quality NEX lenses that are available. Recently because they had to wait years until Zeiss and Sony released them and actually had inventory on shelves.

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LaFonte
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

It all depends on what it is but FF nex sounds a weird. What about the lenses? Sony tested waters with rx1 and we see that it is an expensive proposition and not that "must have" but it seems worked for them. Whatever people want to buy, sony will produce.

On other hand sony undoubtedly makes good cameras, I am using rx100 and it is fantastic reliable camera with super fast AF. My fuji x100s broke after 800 pics in comparison. I also believe the sony has the best contrast based AF from all of them. I was using sony alphas since A700 and I got rid of them only after fuji xpro1.

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LaFonte
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Re: What's $4,000 minus 1,200?
In reply to Toccata47, Aug 10, 2013

Toccata47 wrote:

Nex price estimates I've seen are $4,000 usd. Add in lenses.

Not a lot of folks have made the jump from x100 to rx1 and I doubt many xpro folks will do so.

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

I think jumping from x100 to rx1 would be just throwing far more money for roughly the same type of camera. Many did jump from x100 to xpro1 and so going from xpro1 to ff-nex would be again the same unjustified move unless you are rolling in money.

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RhysM
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

To me the point of FF is that it delivers (short of medium format) the ultimate IQ for digital cameras, the sacrifice being weight/size.

Now, whilst the bodies may only need to be marginally larger, to get the full performance out of the system the lenses will need to be noticeably bigger and heavier than their APS-C counter parts, a lens with the same optical quality as the 18-55mm 2.8-4 on a FF setup would be bordering on the size of the Nikon 24-70mm 2.8. Therefore you're not that far off the overall size and weight of cameras like the Nikon D600.

The point of these mirrorless systems is to save weight whilst maintaining a generally acceptable IQ with APS-C being the sweet spot. In my mind if you're going to go full frame you might as well go the whole hog and get the D600 and have all the associated benefits of such a mature system.

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Mike Arledge
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

I have the x100, xpro1 and the Sony RX1.  Each have a different purpose in my workflow. The x100 to me is the ideal street and documetnary camera. The x-pro1 is my fav and the workhorse. I use the Sony when I want max MP and FF shallow DoF. I have thought about selling the x100 several times, but something always bring me back to it.  I think many users who can have variety will see strengths and weaknesses in each compact offering.  If you have to choose just 1 offering, you have to accept compromises in form and function with any of these offerings, the same will fog with a FF Nex.

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CFynn
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

APSC sensor cameras are more than enough for the needs of most enthusiast photographers. I expect the majority will discover that they don't need "full frame" any more than 20 years they found they needed medium format.

Fuji may make a larger sensor digital camera. They made quite a few medium format cameras in the past - but none of those sold to a large market.

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57LowRider
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to CFynn, Aug 10, 2013

I think that's the only response - jump over FF to something bigger. Much as I adore my X-E1, the IQ of medium format film still beats it into a cocked hat. However, that's the only advantage, although a pretty serious one. The baggage is expense and inconvenience.

With this way of thinking, Fuji could break the FF holy grail and rewrite the rules once again. Whether such a thing would be commercially viable is the biggest question. Heck, I don't even know if they're finding the X series commercially viable.

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CFynn
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to 57LowRider, Aug 10, 2013

57LowRider wrote:

I think that's the only response - jump over FF to something bigger. Much as I adore my X-E1, the IQ of medium format film still beats it into a cocked hat. However, that's the only advantage, although a pretty serious one. The baggage is expense and inconvenience.

With this way of thinking, Fuji could break the FF holy grail and rewrite the rules once again. Whether such a thing would be commercially viable is the biggest question. Heck, I don't even know if they're finding the X series commercially viable.

Since Fuji have a history with medium format At some point I could see them jumping over full farme and making a camera with a slightly larger sensor, maybe the size of the one in the Leica S2. A true medium format system would probably be too big and expensive, and have a pretty limited market.

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RhysM
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 10, 2013

My prediction is one day we'll buy bodies with no sensor at all and the sensor will be built in to the lens. So for example, a super-wide lens will be fitted with a full frame sensor, a telephoto with a micro four thirds, a walk around with an APS-C, etc...

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CFynn
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Re: Square format sensors
In reply to NJOW, Aug 10, 2013

NJOW wrote:

I'm a fan of the idea of a square sensor too (albeit not knowing how practical it is). It would really make Fuji's offerings stand out form the crowd, when even FF is a bit me too.

With reference to the OP, it read as yet another 'Why aren't Fuji doing FF?" post. There's certainly some danger it becoming one ;-). What did the Sony RX1 do to the X100(s) sales? And should they then do a FF fixed compact version themselves? Seems analogous, although I don't have an answer!

Nick

The square format made a lot of sense with Rollei TLRs, Hassselblads, and the like, because it meant that you could use a lightweight folding waist level finder on those cameras and avoid the use of a large, heavy eye level prism. Given that most people crop their photos to a rectangular format, the costs of making larger sensors, and EVFs, a square sensor doesn't make too much sense now - unless you are one of the few people that likes to make square prints.

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