Want to buy a phone for camera..

Started Aug 8, 2013 | Questions
Menneisyys
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Hulamike, Aug 9, 2013

Hulamike wrote:

Not seeing it Alupang. But keep on beating that horse anyway. You still haven't answered my question, does Nokia have an App Store or are you stuck with the camera they supply? Does if allow various aspect ratios? Color film modes? Volume shutter? Lossless TIFF, etc? Variety's the name of the game these days. Pixel counting is soo yesterday!

Much as the iPhone has tons of camera apps, feel free to show me ONE camera app that

- allows for directly setting the shutter speed, other than extending it to 1s (Nokia's Camera Pro can on many WP handsets)

- allows for directly setting the ISO other than en/disabling ISO 800...3200 on the iPhone5 (Nokia's Camera Pro can on many WP handsets and Android / Symbian supports this too even in their stock Camera apps)

- allows for manual focus (not speaking about touch-to-focus automatic focus)

- allows for exposure setting (not speaking about touch-to-set automatic exposure)

- allows for true exposure bracketing with dialed-in over/underexposure values

and the list continues...

So, how many apps do support ANY of the above on iOS? NONE. As it's simply not possible via the API - and won't be possible in iOS7 / on the iPhone 5S either.

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bigley Ling
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Menneisyys, Aug 10, 2013

Menneisyys wrote:

Hulamike wrote:

Not seeing it Alupang. But keep on beating that horse anyway. You still haven't answered my question, does Nokia have an App Store or are you stuck with the camera they supply? Does if allow various aspect ratios? Color film modes? Volume shutter? Lossless TIFF, etc? Variety's the name of the game these days. Pixel counting is soo yesterday!

Much as the iPhone has tons of camera apps, feel free to show me ONE camera app that

- allows for directly setting the shutter speed, other than extending it to 1s (Nokia's Camera Pro can on many WP handsets)

- allows for directly setting the ISO other than en/disabling ISO 800...3200 on the iPhone5 (Nokia's Camera Pro can on many WP handsets and Android / Symbian supports this too even in their stock Camera apps)

- allows for manual focus (not speaking about touch-to-focus automatic focus)

- allows for exposure setting (not speaking about touch-to-set automatic exposure)

- allows for true exposure bracketing with dialed-in over/underexposure values

and the list continues...

So, how many apps do support ANY of the above on iOS? NONE. As it's simply not possible via the API - and won't be possible in iOS7 / on the iPhone 5S either.

Menneisyys, I think the idea of IOS is to be easy to use. This is the reason for the simplicity in the default IOS camera app. The idea is you do not have to be a rocket scientist to capture an image with the iPhone. So you are correct, IOS 7 and probably all future IOS will not have that flexibility you crave for that you can find in the Nokia 1020.

Hulamike, do not try to validate that the iPhone 3rd party apps can compete against the Nokia Pro camrea app, as it will lose everytime when it comes to manual control feature set. Who needs lossless TIFF for such a tiny sensor. I guarantee you put any IOS camera app image that gives out lossless TIF against the Procamera app with standard JPG, and you will find the iPhone losing everytime. I believe the Nokia pro camera app does support 2 aspect ratio's 4:3 and 16:9.

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Menneisyys
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Re: iPhone
In reply to bigley Ling, Aug 10, 2013

Yes, Apple always ships barebones, as-simple-as-possible built-in apps not to alienate technophobes / people not wanting myriads of settings. This is not only true with the stock Camera app, but also with the stock Videos app, which lacks several features the API, otherwise, would allow for - for example, 0.5...2x slowdown / speedup.

Unfortunately, camera programming in iOS via Apple's API's don't help this situation. It's significantly inferior to that of any competing OS, including dead ones like Symbian. There is simply no way of doing anything manually I've listed - and I'm talking of the API accessible to third-party apps.

All in all, Hulamike's referring to the seeming lack of apps on WP8 while iOS has tons of apps is very-very unfounded when it comes to imaging. No matter how many camera apps iOS has, NONE of them is capable of the same (manual settings) than Nokia Camera Pro and NONE will be as of iOS7 either, that is, in the next 13-14 months. Quantity over quality...

I know what I'm talking about: I know both the API and most third-party apps. I'm a pro iOS programmer / lecturer and have published tons of articles on programming the camera under iOS, including iOS7's new API features. I'm also written several iOS photo/video-related articles and will continue to do so (just working on four new ones: Panorama / HDR / low light / action shooting bibles.) See http://www.iphonelife.com/werner.ruotsalainen for my articles if interested.

bigley Ling wrote:

Menneisyys, I think the idea of IOS is to be easy to use. This is the reason for the simplicity in the default IOS camera app. The idea is you do not have to be a rocket scientist to capture an image with the iPhone. So you are correct, IOS 7 and probably all future IOS will not have that flexibility you crave for that you can find in the Nokia 1020.

Hulamike, do not try to validate that the iPhone 3rd party apps can compete against the Nokia Pro camrea app, as it will lose everytime when it comes to manual control feature set. Who needs lossless TIFF for such a tiny sensor. I guarantee you put any IOS camera app image that gives out lossless TIF against the Procamera app with standard JPG, and you will find the iPhone losing everytime. I believe the Nokia pro camera app does support 2 aspect ratio's 4:3 and 16:9.

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Menneisyys
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Wait for LG G2?
In reply to Si14, Aug 10, 2013

Si14 wrote:

Hi all,

I am looking for a smart phone with good camera. Can you suggest some:

I am aware of Nokia N8, 808, and 1020 which have relatively good cameras, however, 808 and 1020 are big!

While it's also big, the first published full-res images from the LG G2 are pretty good. You might want to wait some weeks to find out whether it's worth purchasing - whether the OIS is any good etc.

My quick evaluation of the now-available shots (cross-post from MacRumors at http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1608234&page=6 ):

Four full-res photos at http://blog.gsmarena.com/lg-g2-camera-samples-arrive-show-what-its-13mp-ois-shooter-is-capable-of/

- the lens seems to be very good - good sharpness along the entire area and little chromatic aberration
- of course, on the pixel level, even non-shadows are noisy even at base ISO. At screen sizes (zoomed out) noise isn't annoying in ISO 100 shots.
- no slow shutter photos so it's still impossible to assess the efficiency of the OIS - the only one using a somewhat longer shutter ( http://cdn.gsmarena.com/pics//13/08/lg-g2-camera-samples/camera/thumb/gsmarena_001.jpg ) is 1/24s, while using ISO300. This may also mean the camera doesn't really want to use "dangerous" shutter speeds (unlike most other phones - most of other phones go down to 1/15s to keep ISO as low as possible); instead, they start bumping up ISO early.

If it produces excellent footage in the 1080p60 mode, I'll surely get this. Particularly if it also records audio in stereo.

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Hulamike
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Menneisyys, Aug 10, 2013

Well I get your drift but KitCam allows for live exposure modification via a slider that overrides the touch auto exposure feature and I believe it is possible to select various shutter speeds in 645Pro MK II but not as easily as with a DSLR Or perhaps a Nokia.

im really not anti anything but I find so much available in the App Store for iPhone its hard to get excited about hardware. I get that a larger sensor equates to higher IQ when printing 11x14. But as for cleaner files or better color? Dynamic range? I haven't seen any compelling images that are better than iPhone yet. Please point me to some convincing examples.

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Hulamike
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Jeff Peterman, Aug 10, 2013

It's my understanding that its unprocessed Jeff.

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Jeff Peterman
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Hulamike, Aug 10, 2013

I did some searching and couldn't find anything that said that the app could access the unprocessed data from the camera. I did find this in DPREVIEW's review:

While you can export the TIFF to your Camera Roll at any time, in order to get the full size file, you have to access it through iTunes when your iPhone is plugged into your computer. The files are huge (mine were all at least 20MB), but their overall pixel count was no better than the maximum-quality JPEG output. When I brought the photos up in Photoshop and performed identical basic editing (levels and color balance), the photos performed exactly the same. It made me wonder if there is really much of a difference at all. Other than file size, how different are the max-quality JPEG and TIFF?

So, it suggests that the app can't access unprocessed data - as I would expect because most phone camera modules do the processing internally (in firmware) so that there is less load on the phone's processor/memory.

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Alupang
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Jeff Peterman, Aug 10, 2013

I would say with 99.9% certainty, that it's just saving JPG as TIFF. Something anyone could do with Photoshop and any JPG file from any camera.

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Jeff Peterman
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Alupang, Aug 10, 2013

That's my thought. It won't improve the quality of the original photo. BUT, if you open the file on the phone, edit it, and save it as TIF, you'll get better results than if you saved the edited file as a JPG. (One round of lossy storage instead of two.)

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Alupang
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Re: (Galaxy S4/iPhone 5) vs (Nokia 808, 1020)
In reply to Si14, Aug 10, 2013

Si14 wrote:

Alupang wrote:

Si14 wrote:

Anyways, I am wondering how much is the IQ difference between Nokia 808, 1020 and the SG4 and iPhone 5?

That's an easy question to answer: About five times better image quality because Nokia sensors are about 5 times larger.

This isn't rocket science. The size of the sensor is directly related to image quality. Period.

Don't believe me? OK fine. Read this please:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/08/02/sensor-size-is-what-matters-and-the-trend-is-for-larger-says-aptina

I have already read that article.

Do you have photo comparison?

Based on the following photo comparison, you can see here that the difference is not that much significant. If you have a photo comparison that shows the difference in action, that would be interesting to see.

http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=2&idPhone1=5125&idPhone2=4577&idPhone3=4910

Im sorry that I have little interest looking at these shots. Nothing could sway me from fact that 5 times larger sensor means 5 times more captured detail.

I see this as an absolute no brainer. Obviously it is a difficult concept for you to grasp.

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Alupang
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Jeff Peterman, Aug 10, 2013

Jeff Peterman wrote:

That's my thought. It won't improve the quality of the original photo. BUT, if you open the file on the phone, edit it, and save it as TIF, you'll get better results than if you saved the edited file as a JPG. (One round of lossy storage instead of two.)

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Yes of course but since the originals are JPG to begin with, there is no advantage converting to TIFF...unless you don't understand the difference between "save" and "save as" when doing multiple edits.

RAW into TIFF I can understand. But JPG intoTIFF? Senseless. Am I missing something here?

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Menneisyys
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Alupang, Aug 10, 2013

Alupang wrote:


RAW into TIFF I can understand. But JPG intoTIFF? Senseless. Am I missing something here?

Well.. marketability of apps like 645 and the ex-KitCam? (The latter could also save to "uncompressed" TIFF). Many really believe it's true RAW (without any noise reduction / white balance setting) and this does give these apps an advantage in the AppStore.

I'll also test this on the API level and report back.

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Menneisyys
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Hulamike, Aug 10, 2013

Hulamike wrote:

Well I get your drift but KitCam allows for live exposure modification via a slider that overrides the touch

It's basically PP. That is, it doesn't allow for directly setting the exposure before taking the shot - all it does is in/decreasing the exposure after taking the shot. There is simply no way to instruct iOS to take a shot with a specific, (in this case, via a slider) dialed-in decreased / increased exposure.

PP also means shadows will become much more noisier when shadow pulling (+EV values) / highlight clipping will be much more prominent when applying negative EV values. It really can't deliver the same quality as pre-shooting exp. compensation - including focusing to a dark /light area before shooting to dial down/up exposure.

I'll very soon publish an article on this - I've already shot some demo images clearly showing this.

auto exposure feature and I believe it is possible to select various shutter speeds in 645Pro MK II but not as easily as with a DSLR Or perhaps a Nokia.

No you can't. If you enable Night Mode in 645 and also let for a longer shutter speed, the camera (not the app!) will choose a shutter speed that still allows for base ISO. You can't force the camera to use a specific shutter speed. All you can do is telling the camera what speed should be the slowest, as opposed to the default 1/15s max.

im really not anti anything but I find so much available in the App Store for iPhone its hard to get excited about hardware. I get that a larger sensor equates to higher IQ when printing 11x14. But as for cleaner files or better color? Dynamic range? I haven't seen any compelling images that are better than iPhone yet. Please point me to some convincing examples.

This is probably because there are some hundreds of thousands of 808's in the hands of users, as opposed to tens of millions of iPhones?

Nevertheless, a recent photo contest was won (as second) by a 808 photo - it was also reported on here on the DPR frontpage.

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Jeff Peterman
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Re: iPhone and file formats
In reply to Alupang, Aug 10, 2013

OK, let's say I take a photo with an app - it will have gone through one round of JPG compression. Then:

1. I adjust the brightness and save the file.

2. Later, I open the brightness-adjusted file, crop the image, and save it under a new name.

3. Later, I open the cropped image and adjust the color saturation and save it.

If each save was done with a loss-less format, such as TIF, I'll only have the initial JPG compression artifacts. But if I saved as JPG each time, I'd have at least two extra cycles of JPG compression, which would degrade the image.

Personally, I'd avoid most of the above by just saving the image initially on the phone and then moving it to my PC to edit in PhotoShop. BUT, if you're going to do multiple edit cycles on a phone/tablet then saving as TIF is an advantage - assuming you have enough space (at 20 MB per image, you need a lot of memory if you often edit on the device).

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seeblue
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Re: iPhone and file formats
In reply to Jeff Peterman, Aug 10, 2013

Yes. It's sorta similar to the case where someone who shoots JPEG imports her images into a non-destructive editing environment like Aperture or Lightroom (which FYI, neither has a Save or Save As…but that's for another discussion).

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Alupang
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Re: iPhone and file formats
In reply to Jeff Peterman, Aug 10, 2013

With the Nok 808, it automatically "saves as" upon every edit so your original full res JPG is perserved. So no need for TIFF, even when doing multiple edits in-cam.

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bigley Ling
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Re: iPhone and file formats
In reply to Alupang, Aug 10, 2013

Alupang wrote:

With the Nok 808, it automatically "saves as" upon every edit so your original full res JPG is perserved. So no need for TIFF, even when doing multiple edits in-cam.

to ad to Alupang, there is a free open source editor called "Photproc" which allows powerful editing like variable highlight, shadow recovery, variable noise reduction algorithm, color saturation adjustment, etc, all with the ability to control JPG compression quality, all one package

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bigley Ling
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Re: iPhone and file formats
In reply to Jeff Peterman, Aug 10, 2013

Agree TIFF is preferable for rediting an image without lossy compression each time. B aware though the majority of iPhone photo editing apps will not necessarily have TIFF abiltiy to load or save. Basically once 645 pro creates the TIFF, it is prob best left for PC or MAC post processing

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Menneisyys
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Re: iPhone
In reply to Menneisyys, Aug 10, 2013

Article ready: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1621351

Sorry for the external link. I've tried pasting the full article here but the (external) image links just didn't work. Being REALLY tired and there being tons of inline images in the article, I couldn't manually edit the source.

Menneisyys wrote:

I'll very soon publish an article on this - I've already shot some demo images clearly showing this.

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Jeff Peterman
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Re: iPhone and file formats
In reply to seeblue, Aug 11, 2013

Yes, I know about Lightroom; I tried using it when version 1 came out, and it was terrible, BUT it's been my primary processing tool since version 3 (I just upgraded to 5).

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