More pick the E1 game

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
illy
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Re: If I'm wrong, I'll agree with you
In reply to veroman, 8 months ago

veroman wrote:

illy wrote:

the colour is fine in both of them that is my point, so looking for things like resolution and lens performance should help be a deciding factor in making a decision, the fact that not everyone is saying the same shot is the E-1 is proof alone that the E-1 magical colour myth is just that, a myth.....don't get me wrong the E-1 had great colour rendition, but it appears not that unique since it's not a 100% hit rate in the guesses.......or could something else be the cause of this

Color is the last thing anyone should be evaluating in an online forum or anywhere online. Monitors and settings vary wildly. Color-wise, what I see on my MacBook Air is different than what I see on my Apple 30" Cinema Display, even though both are calibrated to the best of my ability. Viewing online is ok for establishing a pleasing color, but I don't think it's the place for judging a camera's true color capability.

And I wish you'd stop referring to the E-1's color reputation as a "magical color myth." As with any camera, it is what it is, that's all. Some like it. Some love it. Some can't see it at all. But it's no more "mythical" than the color from another Olympus, Canon, Nikon or Fuji Super CCD Pro.

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yet you're the one doing endless threads online about this exact subject, i refer to it as mythical because as many of these threads have proved not every gets close to being right

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rovingtim
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It's not only the D200
In reply to illy, 8 months ago

illy wrote:

rovingtim wrote:

lord only knows what you did to make that happen, never seen that in the 1000's of pictures i've taken with the D200.

I put the two images over each other and then cut ribbons so you could see the colour difference.

Did you really not know that is what I did?

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illy
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to rovingtim, 8 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

illy wrote:

rovingtim wrote:

lord only knows what you did to make that happen, never seen that in the 1000's of pictures i've taken with the D200.

I put the two images over each other and then cut ribbons so you could see the colour difference.

Did you really not know that is what I did?

obviously not, was i supposed to guess that as well, and that showed they render greens differently....and what does that tell us....without knowing the actual scene it's a case of pick the green you like, rather than saying which is accurate or what isn't

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rovingtim
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to illy, 8 months ago

To my eye, the E1 colour looks more like grass. I said so, and described why, in advance of knowing which was which.

That you don't see the same thing would indicate that that kind of colour discernment is not important to you. As such, you would be just as happy with a D200 as an E1 in regards to colour. I'm not trying to say that you MUST see the E1 colour. I'm not even saying that you should.

However, I don't really appreciate you telling me that I can't see the difference ... especially when I've just demonstrated that I can. If I can see the difference, and in that discernment feel the E1 colour is much better, then perhaps the kind of colour generated by the E1 is important to me.

Furthermore, if you can't tell the difference, I really don't see how you have any credibility in informing me about colour differences or colour preferences.

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illy
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to rovingtim, 8 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

To my eye, the E1 colour looks more like grass. I said so, and described why, in advance of knowing which was which.

That you don't see the same thing would indicate that that kind of colour discernment is not important to you. As such, you would be just as happy with a D200 as an E1 in regards to colour. I'm not trying to say that you MUST see the E1 colour. I'm not even saying that you should.

However, I don't really appreciate you telling me that I can't see the difference ... especially when I've just demonstrated that I can. If I can see the difference, and in that discernment feel the E1 colour is much better, then perhaps the kind of colour generated by the E1 is important to me.

Furthermore, if you can't tell the difference, I really don't see how you have any credibility in informing me about colour differences or colour preferences.

lol, there is a uniform colour for grass? You have a preconceived idea of how the grass colour should be is all that you're telling me, even the time of day and time of year and which latitude your are at will affect the light and change the hue of the grass, of course i see a difference, but to say the E-1 grass colour is better because i know what colour that grass should be in the picture is simply hilarious

I have colour discernment, but is either better than the other? do i have no interest in colour because i like the D200, you like the E-1 colour and therefore are full of colour discernment? These are subjective matters unless you'd like to prove these statements with cold hard facts.

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Stacey_K
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Re: If I'm wrong, I'll agree with you
In reply to veroman, 8 months ago

veroman wrote:

Color is the last thing anyone should be evaluating in an online forum or anywhere online.

Yet you have posted dozens of threads about exactly this

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Stacey

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Stacey_K
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to illy, 8 months ago

illy wrote:

lol, there is a uniform colour for grass? You have a preconceived idea of how the grass colour should be is all that you're telling me, even the time of day and time of year and which latitude your are at will affect the light and change the hue of the grass, of course i see a difference, but to say the E-1 grass colour is better because i know what colour that grass should be in the picture is simply hilarious

I have colour discernment, but is either better than the other? do i have no interest in colour because i like the D200, you like the E-1 colour and therefore and full of colour discernment? These are subjective matters unless you'd like to prove these statements with cold hard facts.

What I find comical is the grass color has to be 100% accurate (can't have grass looking too nice) but "olympus blue sky" is preferred, even though the sky looked a lot more like the nikon shot. I'm not sure I have ever seen a real sky the color olympus renders them but they do look pretty.

BTW we have had a LOT of rain and that lawn is -really- green this year

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illy
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to Stacey_K, 8 months ago

Stacey_K wrote:

illy wrote:

lol, there is a uniform colour for grass? You have a preconceived idea of how the grass colour should be is all that you're telling me, even the time of day and time of year and which latitude your are at will affect the light and change the hue of the grass, of course i see a difference, but to say the E-1 grass colour is better because i know what colour that grass should be in the picture is simply hilarious

I have colour discernment, but is either better than the other? do i have no interest in colour because i like the D200, you like the E-1 colour and therefore and full of colour discernment? These are subjective matters unless you'd like to prove these statements with cold hard facts.

What I find comical is the grass color has to be 100% accurate (can't have grass looking too nice) but "olympus blue sky" is preferred, even though the sky looked a lot more like the nikon shot. I'm not sure I have ever seen a real sky the color olympus renders them but they do look pretty.

BTW we have had a LOT of rain and that lawn is -really- green this year

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Stacey

i always hear how Nikon grass is fluorescent, i was in Thailand with the E-1 ages ago and took some shots of cross billed storks in a rice paddy, the green was utterly intense and looked fake because of it, the E-1 has great colour i do agree with that, but i don't think it's a unique thing amongst cameras.

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rovingtim
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to illy, 8 months ago

illy wrote:

rovingtim wrote:

To my eye, the E1 colour looks more like grass. I said so, and described why, in advance of knowing which was which.

That you don't see the same thing would indicate that that kind of colour discernment is not important to you. As such, you would be just as happy with a D200 as an E1 in regards to colour. I'm not trying to say that you MUST see the E1 colour. I'm not even saying that you should.

However, I don't really appreciate you telling me that I can't see the difference ... especially when I've just demonstrated that I can. If I can see the difference, and in that discernment feel the E1 colour is much better, then perhaps the kind of colour generated by the E1 is important to me.

Furthermore, if you can't tell the difference, I really don't see how you have any credibility in informing me about colour differences or colour preferences.

lol, there is a uniform colour for grass?

No. That was one of my points in choosing the E1 file.

You have a preconceived idea of how the grass colour should be is all that you're telling me, even the time of day and time of year and which latitude your are at will affect the light and change the hue of the grass, of course i see a difference, but to say the E-1 grass colour is better because i know what colour that grass should be in the picture is simply hilarious

How can you say this when you're busy telling me the colours are the same?

I have colour discernment, but is either better than the other?

Obviously not to you. And I'm not trying to tell you any different either. What I'm still objecting to is that you are telling me that I can't either.

do i have no interest in colour because i like the D200, you like the E-1 colour and therefore and full of colour discernment? These are subjective matters unless you'd like to prove these statements with cold hard facts.

The cold hard fact is I'm 2 for 2. You are not. And yet you still feel free to lecture me on colour.

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rovingtim
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E1 is not colour accurate
In reply to illy, 8 months ago

illy wrote:

Stacey_K wrote:

illy wrote:

lol, there is a uniform colour for grass? You have a preconceived idea of how the grass colour should be is all that you're telling me, even the time of day and time of year and which latitude your are at will affect the light and change the hue of the grass, of course i see a difference, but to say the E-1 grass colour is better because i know what colour that grass should be in the picture is simply hilarious

I have colour discernment, but is either better than the other? do i have no interest in colour because i like the D200, you like the E-1 colour and therefore and full of colour discernment? These are subjective matters unless you'd like to prove these statements with cold hard facts.

What I find comical is the grass color has to be 100% accurate

I have already argued that the E1 colour is not scientifically accurate. It only looks accurate. There is a huge difference.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51907404

(can't have grass looking too nice) but "olympus blue sky" is preferred, even though the sky looked a lot more like the nikon shot. I'm not sure I have ever seen a real sky the color olympus renders them but they do look pretty.

BTW we have had a LOT of rain and that lawn is -really- green this year

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Stacey

i always hear how Nikon grass is fluorescent, i was in Thailand with the E-1 ages ago and took some shots of cross billed storks in a rice paddy, the green was utterly intense and looked fake because of it, the E-1 has great colour i do agree with that, but i don't think it's a unique thing amongst cameras.

Obviously not to you. Nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean that others can't see it.

And I don't mean this to be some kind of "colour ability contest". However, I really don't see how people who can't see the difference feels they have the right to lecture those who can demonstrate (ie. picking out the E1 files and saying why) that they can see the difference.

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illy
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to rovingtim, 8 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

illy wrote:

rovingtim wrote:

To my eye, the E1 colour looks more like grass. I said so, and described why, in advance of knowing which was which.

That you don't see the same thing would indicate that that kind of colour discernment is not important to you. As such, you would be just as happy with a D200 as an E1 in regards to colour. I'm not trying to say that you MUST see the E1 colour. I'm not even saying that you should.

However, I don't really appreciate you telling me that I can't see the difference ... especially when I've just demonstrated that I can. If I can see the difference, and in that discernment feel the E1 colour is much better, then perhaps the kind of colour generated by the E1 is important to me.

Furthermore, if you can't tell the difference, I really don't see how you have any credibility in informing me about colour differences or colour preferences.

lol, there is a uniform colour for grass?

No. That was one of my points in choosing the E1 file.

You have a preconceived idea of how the grass colour should be is all that you're telling me, even the time of day and time of year and which latitude your are at will affect the light and change the hue of the grass, of course i see a difference, but to say the E-1 grass colour is better because i know what colour that grass should be in the picture is simply hilarious

How can you say this when you're busy telling me the colours are the same?

I have colour discernment, but is either better than the other?

Obviously not to you. And I'm not trying to tell you any different either. What I'm still objecting to is that you are telling me that I can't either.

do i have no interest in colour because i like the D200, you like the E-1 colour and therefore and full of colour discernment? These are subjective matters unless you'd like to prove these statements with cold hard facts.

The cold hard fact is I'm 2 for 2. You are not. And yet you still feel free to lecture me on colour.

i never said the colours are the same, i never said you can't tell the difference, what i said was that the E-1 magical colour myth is just a myth, you recognised the E-1 by colour alone....well done, i liked the colours in both shots, i don't really shoot with the D200 anymore and not with an E-1 since 2007, i might be a bit rusty on picking it's colour signature up, unlike yourself.

If only colour was so black and white(see what i did there) it would be very simple, many things can change the way we perceive colour, hence people like to shoot during the golden hour, because it changes the hues in a fantastic way, there is no simple grass colour is as there is no single skin colour ...so on and so on, you can recognise an E-1 by it's colour signature....good for you........many others didn't

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rovingtim
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realism
In reply to illy, 8 months ago

illy wrote:

i never said the colours are the same, i never said you can't tell the difference, what i said was that the E-1 magical colour myth is just a myth

You keep saying this. And your proof is ... what ... that people who can't tell the difference don't see a difference?

, you recognised the E-1 by colour alone....well done, i liked the colours in both shots, i don't really shoot with the D200 anymore and not with an E-1 since 2007, i might be a bit rusty on picking it's colour signature up, unlike yourself.

How do you know that I'm in practice? The truth is I'm out of practice.

The way I picked it up is the grass. The colour looks too even in the D200 shot and it doesn't look right (to me). I honestly didn't know if I picked out the E1 or not. I hoped I had, but I stuck my neck way out and if I was wrong I would have agreed with you.

I just knew that shot 2 looked like grass to me while shot 1 looked like a good digital camera's rendition of grass.

Now, as things turned out as they have, I don't agree with you.

If only colour was so black and white(see what i did there) it would be very simple, many things can change the way we perceive colour,

Sure.

hence people like to shoot during the golden hour, because it changes the hues in a fantastic way, there is no simple grass colour

sure

is as there is no single skin colour

sure

...so on and so on, you can recognise an E-1 by it's colour signature

If the above is true, then how is it I can pick out a 'colour signature'? Your argument makes no sense.

....good for you........many others didn't

What I see is how colours relate to one another. I would surmise that after decades of working with film, Kodak really understood this. I would further surmise that this know-how went into the dies of the E1 sensor. It is the relationship that is so important, not the actual colour.

So, yeah, colour changes. So what?

EDIT: it is perfectly possible to ruin this relationship by using some third party RAW developers and/or messing up key colour parameters such as the white balance.

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illy
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Re: realism
In reply to rovingtim, 8 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

illy wrote:

i never said the colours are the same, i never said you can't tell the difference, what i said was that the E-1 magical colour myth is just a myth

You keep saying this. And your proof is ... what ... that people who can't tell the difference don't see a difference?

, you recognised the E-1 by colour alone....well done, i liked the colours in both shots, i don't really shoot with the D200 anymore and not with an E-1 since 2007, i might be a bit rusty on picking it's colour signature up, unlike yourself.

How do you know that I'm in practice? The truth is I'm out of practice.

The way I picked it up is the grass. The colour looks too even in the D200 shot and it doesn't look right (to me). I honestly didn't know if I picked out the E1 or not. I hoped I had, but I stuck my neck way out and if I was wrong I would have agreed with you.

I just knew that shot 2 looked like grass to me while shot 1 looked like a good digital camera's rendition of grass.

Now, as things turned out as they have, I don't agree with you.

If only colour was so black and white(see what i did there) it would be very simple, many things can change the way we perceive colour,

Sure.

hence people like to shoot during the golden hour, because it changes the hues in a fantastic way, there is no simple grass colour

sure

is as there is no single skin colour

sure

...so on and so on, you can recognise an E-1 by it's colour signature

If the above is true, then how is it I can pick out a 'colour signature'? Your argument makes no sense.

....good for you........many others didn't

What I see is how colours relate to one another. I would surmise that after decades of working with film, Kodak really understood this. I would further surmise that this know-how went into the dies of the E1 sensor. It is the relationship that is so important, not the actual colour.

So, yeah, colour changes. So what?

EDIT: it is perfectly possible to ruin this relationship by using some third party RAW developers and/or messing up key colour parameters such as the white balance.

you picked out a camera because of it's colour signature, that's a good skill, many didn't, the E-1 is described as having unique almost  magical colours, with a colour signature like thst surely it would be a 100% hit rate for the E-1....it wasn't, and every test i've seen like this has been the same.

People see a difference, it's just that the differences weren't so great or unique in regard of the E-1 to make it a sure fire choice........as has happened with every other test like this....i could throw the Big Ga one in for good measure if you like

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rovingtim
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I agree with this
In reply to illy, 8 months ago

illy wrote:

People see a difference, it's just that the differences weren't so great or unique in regard of the E-1 to make it a sure fire choice

Colour is a subjective experience. For example, pilots have to be tested for colour because a significant number don't have the ability to distinguish red and green enough to make them safe in the air (red and green are in-flight navigation colours and landing indicators).

Furthermore, most people aren't really looking for colour relationships. They just see big bold colour, like the flowers in the E3/E5 thread and declare great colour. Very few have noticed the blown reds, for example ... and I'm not going over there to make them see it either. They are happy. Let them enjoy.

I totally, 100% agree that the colour ability of the E1 did not distinguish it enough to make it a unique selling point. Olympus abandoned the E1 colours in favour of better noise performance on the next iteration.

However, in the E1's time, lots of people noticed the E1 colours and raved about them. Just as this forum is today peopled by those who best appreciate the E3/E5 body, back in the day, this forum was peopled by people who really appreciated colour.

The people left on this forum today are not here for colour. Therefore, when you test this forum for colour, most will simply shrug and move on. They don't really see any difference. This is good, because the E3/E5 don't really have anything special in terms of colour. They are good and Oly does have certain colour 'magic' in their jpgs, but their RAW colour 'signature' is much of a muchness with other cameras.

However, I would argue, it was not always this way in Oly-land.

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Stacey_K
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to rovingtim, 8 months ago

rovingtim wrote:


The cold hard fact is I'm 2 for 2. You are not.

And neither were others, even the guy who has been spamming the forum with the "E1 is the best" posts swung and missed. You even said "my guess is...".

Also you did have a 50-50 chance on being right or wrong. I never said there is zero difference, Just that the difference I see is minor between a D200 and an E1. They are much closer than either is to say a D7000 file in sunlight.

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Stacey

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rovingtim
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Re: It's not only the D200
In reply to Stacey_K, 8 months ago

Stacey_K wrote:

rovingtim wrote:

The cold hard fact is I'm 2 for 2. You are not.

And neither were others, even the guy who has been spamming the forum with the "E1 is the best" posts swung and missed. You even said "my guess is...".

Agreed. I hadn't tested my perception empirically. Because of your challenges, I am now feeling that perhaps what I'm seeing is more objective than subjective.

Also you did have a 50-50 chance on being right or wrong. I never said there is zero difference, Just that the difference I see is minor between a D200 and an E1. They are much closer than either is to say a D7000 file in sunlight.

I wouldn't disagree. I have little experience with D7000 files and I'm not accusing youof seeing things that are not there

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