Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete Locked

Started Jul 31, 2013 | Discussions
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paul613
Senior MemberPosts: 1,634
Re: rather amusing
In reply to James Pilcher, 11 months ago

It's been a long time since I've seen such mean-spirited replies to an well-meaning post.

James Pilcher wrote:

It never ceases to amuse me the kind of tripe that is served up here by the experts.

Jim Pilcher
Summit County, Colorado, USA

-
Paul S. in Maryland

papillon_65
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Another philistine reporting in....
In reply to seilerbird666, 11 months ago

Well fast lenses won't be obsolete in my lifetime thats for sure, there'll always be a need for shallower dof in many types of photography, to dismiss it is to show a special kind of ignorance of the "my way or the highway" kind. I'm not sure when some people will learn that there isn't necessarily a right and wrong way, just different ways of doing things. Image quality is always best at base ISO, so if you want better quality then often you need faster lenses, or a tripod. I guess we'll be seeing "Tripods are dead" threads soon.....

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bluelemmy
Contributing MemberPosts: 794
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, 11 months ago

No, fast lenses enable you to restrict depth of field. And high ISO plus fast lens gives you the capabilty of working in lower light than high ISO plus slow lens.

Here is a picture of my black cat hiding in an unlit coal cellar, 60 seconds at f2. Imagine how much better it would have been had I had an f0.95 lens.

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David
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amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,625
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to bluelemmy, 11 months ago

bluelemmy wrote:

No, fast lenses enable you to restrict depth of field. And high ISO plus fast lens gives you the capabilty of working in lower light than high ISO plus slow lens.

Here is a picture of my black cat hiding in an unlit coal cellar, 60 seconds at f2. Imagine how much better it would have been had I had an f0.95 lens.

You must really have a great sense of (involuntary) humor.

That's the piece of conviction everybody was looking for

Am.

bluelemmy
Contributing MemberPosts: 794
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to amalric, 11 months ago

amalric wrote:

bluelemmy wrote:

No, fast lenses enable you to restrict depth of field. And high ISO plus fast lens gives you the capabilty of working in lower light than high ISO plus slow lens.

Here is a picture of my black cat hiding in an unlit coal cellar, 60 seconds at f2. Imagine how much better it would have been had I had an f0.95 lens.

You must really have a great sense of (involuntary) humor.

That's the piece of conviction everybody was looking for

Am.

Wow! I borrowed a f0.95 lens and took a picture in my cellar. Turns out it was so dark that I couldnt see it wasn't my black cat Edward but my my green pet praying mantis Chardonnay down there.

Here she is - thank goodness for high speed lenses, just shows you what a difference a couple of stops can make!

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David
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amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,625
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to bluelemmy, 11 months ago

bluelemmy wrote:

amalric wrote:

bluelemmy wrote:

No, fast lenses enable you to restrict depth of field. And high ISO plus fast lens gives you the capabilty of working in lower light than high ISO plus slow lens.

Here is a picture of my black cat hiding in an unlit coal cellar, 60 seconds at f2. Imagine how much better it would have been had I had an f0.95 lens.

You must really have a great sense of (involuntary) humor.

That's the piece of conviction everybody was looking for

Am.

Wow! I borrowed a f0.95 lens and took a picture in my cellar. Turns out it was so dark that I couldnt see it wasn't my black cat Edward but my my green pet praying mantis Chardonnay down there.

Here she is - thank goodness for high speed lenses, just shows you what a difference a couple of stops can make!

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David
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Chardonnay looks great. Must just have just eaten a husband. You know those two stops?

In addition to a nominal 25600 ISO the E-M5 offers also some 4 stops of IBIS. Perhaps you should try one, EVEN with a moderate aperture.

Doesn't Edward consider Chardonnay food?

Am.

John Motts
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,995
Re: rather amusing
In reply to paul613, 11 months ago

paul613 wrote:

It's been a long time since I've seen such mean-spirited replies to an well-meaning post.

To be fair the original post was pretty mean spirited towards those who buy fast lenses, by someone who thinks he knows more than he does.

I was going to respond to the OP with a full explanation of why he is completely wrong (on two counts), but quite honestly I couldn't be bothered.

sigala1
Senior MemberPosts: 3,205
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to bluelemmy, 11 months ago

bluelemmy wrote:

No, fast lenses enable you to restrict depth of field. And high ISO plus fast lens gives you the capabilty of working in lower light than high ISO plus slow lens.

Here is a picture of my black cat hiding in an unlit coal cellar, 60 seconds at f2. Imagine how much better it would have been had I had an f0.95 lens.

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David
www.dthorpe.net

There are already 10 million poorly exposed pictures of cats on Instagram. So I don't think it's of any global benefit that you have a $1000 lens so you can make that 10 million and one poorly exposed pictures of cats.

newmikey
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Are you for real?
In reply to seilerbird666, 11 months ago

Or is this just a joke? If the latter, I find it somewhat amusing but not wildly so.

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tko
tko
Forum ProPosts: 10,080
same old ignorance
In reply to seilerbird666, 11 months ago

Wasn't this explained before? There is no such thing as a fast sensor. There are sensors which may be better by  1/3 to 1/2 stop or so - say 30% better. There are lenses which are better by 800% - 3 stops or more.

It's ridulous to think a sensor can make up for a tiny lens.

seilerbird666 wrote:

Quite a while ago in fact.

However there still are a few people who watch Betamax tapes, listen to records and use a land line so there will always be a few people who refuse to come into the modern world. They hang on to past technologies like it is a winning lottery ticket. They refuse to admit that new technology is better and they refuse to even try it.

Or maybe they tried it and died laughing? Did you ever think I can use all that new technology AND a fast lens and beat any performance you can dream of?

High ISO cameras, advanced shooting modes, Photoshop, and image stabilization have all contributed to making fast lenses a thing of the past.

Photoshop and IS have been around forever. What do you think has suddenly changed? IS doesn't stop subject motion, or change DOF.

The economics are amazing. A Canon 70-200 f2.8 L IS lens is $2500. The exact same lens in f4 costs $1000. While there might be a few people in the world that can justify spending $1500 for one more stop, the overwhelming majority would laugh at such an idea.

Amazing I'll tell you. Simply amazing. Do you think maybe that's why they gave people a choice, so they can match budget to performance and needs?

amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,625
Whose ignorance?
In reply to tko, 11 months ago

tko wrote:

Wasn't this explained before? There is no such thing as a fast sensor. There are sensors which may be better by 1/3 to 1/2 stop or so - say 30% better. There are lenses which are better by 800% - 3 stops or more.

You seem to ignore the basic facts.

Fact one:

http://www.pekkapotka.com/journal/2012/4/27/olympus-e-m5-dynamic-range-raw.html

A difference of *2* stops between old and new sensor.

Fact two:

Oly rates its new 5 axis IBIS four stops

Fact three:

DPR rated the increase of sensitivity of the E-M5 two stops.

So all together from one model to the other we had an increase in performance between 6 and five stops.

That is the reason - for me - why a lot of slower apertures became 'good enough'. No lens could give you additional 6 stops from a moderate aperture.

Additionally Lensrentals Cicala found that the star lens of m4/3 the PL25/1.4 had about half definition at 1.4, compared to 2.8, which is close to one Sigma 2.8 lens.

These are facts to which you are opposing mere guesses, or obfuscations. Not nice.

Am.

tko
tko
Forum ProPosts: 10,080
Re: A long thread from 2-3 days ago made this thread obsolete...NOT!
In reply to amalric, 11 months ago

amalric wrote: Only the naysaying bit.

New things keep coming up- For instance we are learning that the next lens for Sony NEX FF will be a Zeiss 35/2.8.

So, that gathers 500% less light than a F1.4 lens. Are you saying the sensor is 500% more efficient? Must be that Sony fairy dust.

Just as predicted: no need for a fast lens if you have a fast sensor.

So, if the kit lens for a Canon FF is F4, does that mean Canon sensor are better than Sonys because the camera comes with a slower lens? Don't you think that's pretty silly? And the Sony kit lens should tell us what we need for our circumstances?

Not covered also de dematerialization of the lenses. Liquid adaptive lenses (Canon Patent) or light conversion directly by sensors with no need of lenses.

It's always good to refer to non-existent technology in an argument. Do you know how many patents Canon has that never came to market?

In fact all the progress appears to be sensor led. So how to think that this won't have consequences on traditional lenses? In fact even SW corrected lenses are dematerialized by processing.

So, in the film days, did higher speed film allow slower lenses? Did we all throw our fast glass away because someone came out with ASA 800?

Another important consequence is that lenses don't hold their value anymore, because they are superseded by improved ones. I.e., by linear motors that actually cost less to produce.

My 20 year old lens performs better than anything dreamed of outside a Canon or Nikon system, and retains value just fine.

Ring ultrasonic motors have never been beaten. Linear motors are cheap imitations for the mass market designed to lower cost.

There's a whole new world there that you pretend to ignore. If you have the sensor horsepower it make perfect sense to reorient your choice of optics.

Sensors don't have horsepower. All sensors are basically the same to within 20-40%. There is no fairy dust you can sprinkle on a tiny lens and make it work like a larger one.

Am.

Kabe Luna
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I'll agree with you
In reply to seilerbird666, 11 months ago

when fast sensors come with the ability to limit depth of field.

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MightyMike
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Re: Whose ignorance?
In reply to amalric, 11 months ago

IBIS cannot stop subject movement - so bad argument

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amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,625
Re: Whose ignorance?
In reply to MightyMike, 11 months ago

MightyMike wrote:

IBIS cannot stop subject movement - so bad argument

Only in your mind. IBIS helps in most cases, and 5 axis IBIS helps even more. That is why Sony and Panasonic will adapt it.

BTW I overstated since the E-P3 had already 2 stop of IBIS, so in one generation only we earned two stops.

Add 2 stops of SNR, and we have *4* stops more available. No fast lens full open is going to give you that, especially not at full resolution.

Of course this doesn't mean that you cannot use fast lenses at full aperture, but there will definitely be less of a need.

Am.

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MightyMike
Forum ProPosts: 30,237
Re: Whose ignorance?
In reply to amalric, 11 months ago

amalric wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

IBIS cannot stop subject movement - so bad argument

Only in your mind. IBIS helps in most cases

IBIS only helps stop user shake when the shutter speeds are slower then the 1/FL*2 (*2 for m43rds)

In most cases suggests over 50% of your photography are at shutter speeds slower than 1/600th sec assuming you own the longest first party lens for the m43rds system. Now if you only own a slow 14-42 lens then over 50% of yours photos would have to be under 1/84th sec.

1/84th sec is too slow to stop most action, even 1/600th sec is too slow to stop plenty of action. Also i suggest you don't consider using flash to freeze motion as an argument as that would negate the need for IBIS too!

So, given that we can assume (perhaps not correctly) that you use shutter speeds under 1/100th sec a lot then you must be shooting still scenes, in such scenes a cell phone camera would probably work. oh wait you're singing the praises of high ISO, this means still scenes in low light, either that or long exposures at night with deliberate subject blur. Sorry but all that is just a small segment of photography and there is a hell of a lot more out there that can be photographed better at faster shutter speeds where no IBIS is necessary.

I have a camera with IBIS, and i use its feature a lot, but I also shoot plenty of subjects where if i were at a shutter speed requiring IBIS the photo would be ruined regardless as the subject moves too fast for that shutter speed even at bright F1.4 apertures. This isn't to say i don't also use F8, F11 and F16 also for different circumstances.

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Mike from Canada
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amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,625
Re: A long thread from 2-3 days ago made this thread obsolete...NOT!
In reply to tko, 11 months ago

Not commenting on your patent lack of m4//3 knowledge, but it made me curious, only to discover that your whole photography here is shot with a Canon.

LOL we only needed some Canonites to come and tell us the error in our ways. 

Am.

slimandy
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Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, 11 months ago

If you can't afford fast lenses then don't worry about it, but why waste time trying to convince people that know better? It's nothing to do with not accepting modern technology. A faster lens will always give you and advantage both for low light and for shallow depth of field.

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slimandy
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Re: Whose ignorance?
In reply to amalric, 11 months ago

amalric wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

IBIS cannot stop subject movement - so bad argument

Only in your mind. IBIS helps in most cases, and 5 axis IBIS helps even more. That is why Sony and Panasonic will adapt it.

How can IBIS prevent subject movement blur? 'Only in your mind'? My mind boggles!

BTW I overstated since the E-P3 had already 2 stop of IBIS, so in one generation only we earned two stops.

Add 2 stops of SNR, and we have *4* stops more available. No fast lens full open is going to give you that, especially not at full resolution.

Of course this doesn't mean that you cannot use fast lenses at full aperture, but there will definitely be less of a need.

Do you spend all your time studying specs or do you sometimes go out and take pictures? You might work out how this stuff actually works in doing what it was designed to do.


 
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bluelemmy
Contributing MemberPosts: 794
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to amalric, 11 months ago

>Doesn't Edward consider Chardonnay food?

Tragically, you were right all along. Both Edward and Chardonnay were in the cellar it seems, and yes, Edward has eaten Chardonnay. Thank goodness for someone with a sense of humour, Am!

The black picture was a new file in Photoshop filled with....blank black.

Sometimes discussion here seems like a bunch of inflated ego scientists bickering over whose turn it is to buy the biscuits.

Have fast sensors made fast lenses obsolete? If you don't bother about the maximum aperture of a lens because you just turn up the sensor gain, and shallow depth of field is not something you worry about, yes.

If you require shallow dof and/ or any avoidable noise on a image bothers you, no.

Any sensible discussion starts with a question - not a statement s this one did.

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David
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