Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete Locked

Started Jul 31, 2013 | Discussions
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LincolnB
Senior MemberPosts: 3,734Gear list
Rather amusing math fail
In reply to James Pilcher, Jul 31, 2013

James Pilcher wrote:

seilerbird666 wrote:

Quite a while ago in fact.

However there still are a few people who watch Betamax tapes, listen to records and use a land line so there will always be a few people who refuse to come into the modern world. They hang on to past technologies like it is a winning lottery ticket. They refuse to admit that new technology is better and they refuse to even try it.

High ISO cameras, advanced shooting modes, Photoshop, and image stabilization have all contributed to making fast lenses a thing of the past.

The economics are amazing. A Canon 70-200 f2.8 L IS lens is $2500. The exact same lens in f4 costs $1000. While there might be a few people in the world that can justify spending $1500 for one more stop, the overwhelming majority would laugh at such an idea.

It never ceases to amuse me the kind of tripe that is served up here by the experts.

Jim Pilcher
Summit County, Colorado, USA

Clearly the OP doesn't shoot any sort of variety of lighting or movement conditions.

The difference between landscapes at noon and indoor sports is, by my calculations, sometimes as much as 12 stops. The other day I was shooting indoor sports with my G3 at ISO 1600, aperture f/4, shutter 1/160th on a tripod. What I REALLY wanted was to be shooting was 1/500th handheld with ISO quality equivalent to 400. Does the OP have any idea how much it costs to buy a camera body that looks as good at ISO 4000 as a G3 at ISO 1600, never mind ISO 400?

What the OP is really saying is that we don't need to shoot with fast lenses because we can't afford fast lenses. It's a really bad argument.

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amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,827
Re: A long thread from 2-3 days ago made this thread obsolete...NOT!
In reply to dougjgreen1, Jul 31, 2013

dougjgreen1 wrote:

All of this was covered recently

Only the naysaying bit.

New things keep coming up- For instance we are learning that the next lens for Sony NEX FF will be a Zeiss 35/2.8.

Just as predicted: no need for a fast lens if you have a fast sensor.

Not covered also de dematerialization of the lenses. Liquid adaptive lenses (Canon Patent) or light conversion directly by sensors with no need of lenses.

In fact all the progress appears to be sensor led. So how to think that this won't have consequences on traditional lenses? In fact even SW corrected lenses are dematerialized by processing.

Another important consequence is that lenses don't hold their value anymore, because they are superseded by improved ones. I.e., by linear motors that actually cost less to produce.

There's a whole new world there that you pretend to ignore. If you have the sensor horsepower it make perfect sense to reorient your choice of optics.

Am.

Extra3rd
Forum MemberPosts: 55Gear list
2 Min Exposures have made fast lenses obsolete - I AGREE HA HA
In reply to seilerbird666, Jul 31, 2013

If it was not for OMD EM-5 fast sensor with great ISO performance I could not use the gem of an f8 olympus body cap lens!

Im sorry but Photography is an mathematical equation of light.

Aperture and Sensor sensitivity both add different elements you can't substitute one for another.

Your statement is no different than stating longer exposures compensate for high ISO sensitivity.

Try to get your toddler to stand still or for that matter your mother in law or wife for 2 minutes.

I am aware that many people cant afford fast glass.

You push your equipment to the limits it has.  Some people get shots you don't its a fact.

I dont have a true Macro Lens 1x5 magnification.  Doesnot matter how many extension tubes I stack I will not get the same photos other will.

Keep Clam, keep shooting and making the most of the extra 3rd.

Extra3rd.

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nzmacro
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Congrats
In reply to seilerbird666, Jul 31, 2013

seilerbird666 wrote:

Quite a while ago in fact.

However there still are a few people who watch Betamax tapes, listen to records and use a land line so there will always be a few people who refuse to come into the modern world. They hang on to past technologies like it is a winning lottery ticket. They refuse to admit that new technology is better and they refuse to even try it.

Amazing, really.

High ISO cameras, advanced shooting modes, Photoshop, and image stabilization have all contributed to making fast lenses a thing of the past.

Garbage in, garbage out. Can you actually prove this. I see you take a few BIF shots. Try your idea on a dull day at F/32 ISO 6400, crop it and post it up

The economics are amazing. A Canon 70-200 f2.8 L IS lens is $2500. The exact same lens in f4 costs $1000. While there might be a few people in the world that can justify spending $1500 for one more stop, the overwhelming majority would laugh at such an idea.

So with the BIF shot I mentioned above, use a real cheap slow lens will ya. I want to see what details you can pull out with the feathers.

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Congrats on the strangest post that doesn't makes sense I've ever seen on DPR.

Danny.

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forpetessake
Senior MemberPosts: 3,894
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, Jul 31, 2013

seilerbird666 wrote:

High ISO cameras, advanced shooting modes, Photoshop, and image stabilization have all contributed to making fast lenses a thing of the past.

Apart from the other reasons people mentioned, you don't seem to understand the nature of noise.

As the sensor QE getting closer to 100% (already half the way there), at a given exposure time, the noise is determined by the lens (or mirror) aperture (disregarding losses in glass, filters, etc.) and nothing else -- not by the sensor technology, not even by the sensor size, but by the effective aperture -- that's the maximum amount of light the camera can collect. Both SNR and DOF are the functions of the effective aperture. Even more interesting, for the same DOF you get the same SNR, and v.v., doesn't matter what sensor size or how good the technology are, as long as they have sufficiently high QE.

Now, are we anywhere near the point when the noise performance is good enough? -- Not even close. Look at DXO results, for OM-D to get SNR of 32dB (the lowest level still considered good) it must work at ISO under 600 -- very low for many shooting situations. There are only two ways to deal with it: bigger lenses, and better noise reduction algorithms to hide all that noise.

Lights
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,405Gear list
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, Jul 31, 2013

Although with my style of shooting an Fstop or two or reduced noise would maybe equal an Fstop or two of faster glass (since I'm not much of a limited DOF shooter)..not 'everyone' is like 'me'. And for that matter I'd rather have fast glass, even if it were manual focus...and not because it would make me feel rich It's because of the options it gives you at the moment of collision between the reality in front of the lens and the sensor in the back. A lot of times fast lenses are designed with not only aperture in mind. To be honest I'd rather have both (in other words give me more options), and don't think either makes the other obsolete. There are times in certain situations where faster glass is beneficial, and yes there are workarounds for most things in photography, but 'work' is a part of the word "workaround". There are situations where a blurred background is necessary (even though I think the tool is overused for convenience at times by some, rather than using other compositional tools that require thinking, or intuition) when the background is extremely busy and can't be changed or has no relation to the subject. There are also many situations where faster glass helps keep shutter speed up when you need it, since there aren't any completely noiseless sensors yet. Making a statement that fast lenses are obsolete I think will get the thread to 150...probably pretty quickly.

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Moti
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,641
Re: Ding, ding, ding...
In reply to String, Jul 31, 2013

String wrote:

We have a winner in the Idiotic Post of the Week Award!

Not sure. I think the award should to the OP of thread version 1.0 of the same topic...

Moti

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maljo@inreach.com
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,696
High ISO does not equal low ISO
In reply to seilerbird666, Jul 31, 2013

Dynamic range diminishes a lot as ISO goes up.

Love fast lenses, low ISO and beautiful images.

maljo

amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,827
Making the same mistare twice?
In reply to sigala1, Jul 31, 2013

sigala1 wrote:

seilerbird666 wrote:

Quite a while ago in fact.

However there still are a few people who watch Betamax tapes, listen to records and use a land line so there will always be a few people who refuse to come into the modern world. They hang on to past technologies like it is a winning lottery ticket. They refuse to admit that new technology is better and they refuse to even try it.

High ISO cameras, advanced shooting modes, Photoshop, and image stabilization have all contributed to making fast lenses a thing of the past.

The economics are amazing. A Canon 70-200 f2.8 L IS lens is $2500. The exact same lens in f4 costs $1000. While there might be a few people in the world that can justify spending $1500 for one more stop, the overwhelming majority would laugh at such an idea.

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Agreed!

As sensors become better and better, the only use for fast lenses will be as very expensive special effects lenses, giving a shallow depth of field look that can't easily be duplicated in Photoshop.

Well, that was my take in the other post. A hard pressed photog. will always choose a fast lens, however a company knows v. well ho few fast lenses it sells.

There was an interview with an Oly top manager who said that they had all the problems of the world in selling one additional lens to the kit one, and it was the 45/1.8, which is relatively cheap.

So I contend that for the immense majority of users having a faster sensor is much more a direct experience than having a fast lens. And that it sells more cameras, which the company knows v. well. Look at Oly, by now it sells more camera models than lenses!

For the enthusiast the perspective is different but fast lenses are not really moving the industry. Fast sensors do. Remember how tragically ended the 4/3 experience, based on fast lenses... Would you make the same mistake twice?

Am.

EEmu
Forum MemberPosts: 69
Have you ever shot indoors?
In reply to seilerbird666, Jul 31, 2013

In my acceptably lit living room my GX1 at ISO1600 shooting at f/2.8 requires a shutter speed of 1/15 - 1/20 sec.  I have to push it to ISO12800 to get a shutter faster than 1/100 and then the image looks like it came from a point and shoot from 2003.

You have got to be kidding if you think that fast lenses became obsolete "a while ago".  Sure, I suppose if I was shooting a 5DIII the image wouldn't be that bad, but that's the current best of the best and it would still be weak.

Theoretically this concept is silly. Practically it is a sick joke.  When I can freeze motion in a dim room and get a nice image with a slower lens then we can start talking about this.  But I can't, even with a fast lens.  Maybe a 5DIII user can, but that's not the forum you posted this inanity on.

MrScorpio
Senior MemberPosts: 1,351Gear list
You're not a photographer, you're a gear owner...
In reply to seilerbird666, Jul 31, 2013

What about the pros like my wife who needs to process hundreds of photos in short time and must get it right from the start not to waste too much time by the computer in PP?

Or hobbyists like myself who uses lenses as tools trying to nail that wow-shot?

According to your posting a mobile phone Camera should settle your needs!

Just my thoughts and opinion on the subject...

BR

Marcus

seilerbird666 wrote:

Quite a while ago in fact.

However there still are a few people who watch Betamax tapes, listen to records and use a land line so there will always be a few people who refuse to come into the modern world. They hang on to past technologies like it is a winning lottery ticket. They refuse to admit that new technology is better and they refuse to even try it.

High ISO cameras, advanced shooting modes, Photoshop, and image stabilization have all contributed to making fast lenses a thing of the past.

The economics are amazing. A Canon 70-200 f2.8 L IS lens is $2500. The exact same lens in f4 costs $1000. While there might be a few people in the world that can justify spending $1500 for one more stop, the overwhelming majority would laugh at such an idea.

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riderfanreturns
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Silly dump and run post. (nt)
In reply to seilerbird666, Aug 1, 2013

nt

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I think I have GAS. (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)

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Lights
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,405Gear list
Re: High ISO does not equal low ISO
In reply to maljo@inreach.com, Aug 1, 2013

maljo@inreach.com wrote:

Dynamic range diminishes a lot as ISO goes up.

Love fast lenses, low ISO and beautiful images.

maljo

Yes, color rendition often suffers too.

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jackkurtz
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,298Gear list
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, Aug 1, 2013

The other view of that would be that fast sensors AND fast lenses have revolutionized photography.

I know my Canon 5D Mark III and 50mm f1.2 have certainly changed the way I do available darkness photography.

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brianric
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Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, Aug 1, 2013

seilerbird666 wrote:

The economics are amazing. A Canon 70-200 f2.8 L IS lens is $2500. The exact same lens in f4 costs $1000. While there might be a few people in the world that can justify spending $1500 for one more stop, the overwhelming majority would laugh at such an idea.

Nikon user. I actually spent$ 3,500 more for one stop with my 200/2.0 VR. Worth it for my use.

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brianric
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Re: Ding, ding, ding...
In reply to String, Aug 1, 2013

String wrote:

We have a winner in the Idiotic Post of the Week Award!

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Not quite. Go to Open Talk to see his idiot twin praise the virtues of a 18-200 as his only lens. Second time around.

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MightyMike
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Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, Aug 1, 2013

Yep! in the near future every camera will come with just one lens, a pin hole lens and that will do everything anyone needs. In the far future you won't even need to take the body cap off the camera, nor will it have a pinhole and you'll get perfect pictures with every shot.

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Mike from Canada
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amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,827
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to MightyMike, Aug 1, 2013

MightyMike wrote:

Yep! in the near future every camera will come with just one lens, a pin hole lens and that will do everything anyone needs. In the far future you won't even need to take the body cap off the camera, nor will it have a pinhole and you'll get perfect pictures with every shot.

-

Not in the future, lamer. Now:

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/07/31/canons-new-vixia-mini-mini-compact-person-camcorder-with-a-fisheye-lens/#more-48527

As predicted.

Am.

bacteria
Regular MemberPosts: 187
Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to Manip16, Aug 1, 2013

Manip16 wrote:

I didn't realise better ISO performance also allowed for shallower depth of field. Today I learned...

I came in here to post exactly this.

New technology is amazing!

Karaya
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Re: Fast sensors have made fast lenses obsolete
In reply to seilerbird666, Aug 1, 2013

seilerbird666 wrote:

High ISO cameras, advanced shooting modes, Photoshop, and image stabilization have all contributed to making fast lenses a thing of the past.

The economics are amazing. A Canon 70-200 f2.8 L IS lens is $2500. The exact same lens in f4 costs $1000. While there might be a few people in the world that can justify spending $1500 for one more stop, the overwhelming majority would laugh at such an idea.

Laugh away then. I have a Canon 5D MKIII and my only lens for it is a 85mm F1.2. Slow zoom lenses just don't do it for me.

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