RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!

Started Jul 31, 2013 | Discussions
2eyesee
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RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
Jul 31, 2013

As a previous NEX-6 owner, I loved the camera but found excessive moire it exhibited in video so aggravating I sold it 6 weeks ago. I was intending picking up a Panasonic G6, but around the same time the RX100M2 was announced which resolved 2 of the big issues I had with the RX100 - no tilt screen and inability to attach an external mic.

I liked what I saw with RX100 video, so I decided to pickup an RX100M2 and finally received it today (yes, I've been without a camera for 6 weeks).

The first thing I couldn't resist doing was comparing the moire to what I experienced with the NEX-6 - and the improvement is dramatic. Here are 100% crops of a corrugated iron roof (1080p AVCHD):

Now I have seen criticism in some quarters of moire in RX100 video (e.g the EOSHD review), but I'm delighted with what I see here compared to the NEX-6.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony RX100 Sony RX100 II
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Tapper123
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to 2eyesee, Jul 31, 2013

Wow, that is impressive. I'm not a video person, but it's nice to know that I can take good quality video with my RX100 II.

2eyesee wrote:

As a previous NEX-6 owner, I loved the camera but found excessive moire it exhibited in video so aggravating I sold it 6 weeks ago. I was intending picking up a Panasonic G6, but around the same time the RX100M2 was announced which resolved 2 of the big issues I had with the RX100 - no tilt screen and inability to attach an external mic.

I liked what I saw with RX100 video, so I decided to pickup an RX100M2 and finally received it today (yes, I've been without a camera for 6 weeks).

The first thing I couldn't resist doing was comparing the moire to what I experienced with the NEX-6 - and the improvement is dramatic. Here are 100% crops of a corrugated iron roof (1080p AVCHD):

Now I have seen criticism in some quarters of moire in RX100 video (e.g the EOSHD review), but I'm delighted with what I see here compared to the NEX-6.

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jbwong
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to Tapper123, Jul 31, 2013

not really impressive

M1 was already way ahead in terms of moire than NEX

NEX is a joke in handling moire it's pretty ridiculous

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2eyesee
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to jbwong, Jul 31, 2013

jbwong wrote:

not really impressive

M1 was already way ahead in terms of moire than NEX

I wasn't suggesting the RX100 Mk2 was any better than the RX100 Mk1 at handing moire. I would expect results to be similar with the Mk1.

NEX is a joke in handling moire it's pretty ridiculous

You're right there. The NEX-6 was a terrible disappointment in this area - I only had it for 2 weeks before deciding to sell it.

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Vlad4D
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to 2eyesee, Jul 31, 2013

Yes, difference is huge. By some reason cameras with bigger sensors usually have much more aliasing and moire than cameras with small sensors. Anybody knows why?

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SHood
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to Vlad4D, Jul 31, 2013

Vlad4D wrote:

Yes, difference is huge. By some reason cameras with bigger sensors usually have much more aliasing and moire than cameras with small sensors. Anybody knows why?

It is probably related to read-out speed of the sensor.  Generally, the larger the sensor the slower the read-out speed.

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Sean Nelson
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to SHood, Jul 31, 2013

SHood wrote:

Vlad4D wrote:

Yes, difference is huge. By some reason cameras with bigger sensors usually have much more aliasing and moire than cameras with small sensors. Anybody knows why?

It has to do with how the image is downsampled to the 1920x  1080 resolution of HD video.   For example the Panasonic GH cameras do pixel binning on the sensor itself, and rather than simply discarding some of the pixels they actually do averaging of the binned rows and then the binned pixels in a row in order to keep these kinds of artifacts to a minimum.   In other words the sensor was designed from the ground up to produce good results in video mode.

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2eyesee
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to SHood, Jul 31, 2013

SHood wrote:

Vlad4D wrote:

Yes, difference is huge. By some reason cameras with bigger sensors usually have much more aliasing and moire than cameras with small sensors. Anybody knows why?

It is probably related to read-out speed of the sensor. Generally, the larger the sensor the slower the read-out speed.

And I think it's for this reason that NEX and DSLR cameras don't scale down a full size image to generate a frame of video, but instead they skip lines. So an NEX-6 with its 16MP sensor is probably only reading every 3rd line to generate 1080p video, and this results in the aliasing of the lines that are close to horizontal in the image, which in turn causes the moire pattern.

You can see in the top left corner where the lines are more at a 45 degree angle the frame is much better.

To test this out, when I had my NEX-6 I took a test video of a printed page with a hard near vertical line and hard near horizontal line. Here is a 200% crop of the frame - enlarged 2x so you can clearly see what I mean. Notice how the near-vertical lines don't have the aliasing of the near-horizontal lines:

200% crop from NEX-6 video frame

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Vlad4D
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to Sean Nelson, Jul 31, 2013

Sean Nelson wrote:

SHood wrote:

Vlad4D wrote:

Yes, difference is huge. By some reason cameras with bigger sensors usually have much more aliasing and moire than cameras with small sensors. Anybody knows why?

It has to do with how the image is downsampled to the 1920x 1080 resolution of HD video. For example the Panasonic GH cameras do pixel binning on the sensor itself, and rather than simply discarding some of the pixels they actually do averaging of the binned rows and then the binned pixels in a row in order to keep these kinds of artifacts to a minimum. In other words the sensor was designed from the ground up to produce good results in video mode.

So it means that Panasonic GH and Sony RX-100 (and BTW cheap 20MP Sony HX models) - all managed to support pixel binning on very small sensor with very little space for additional electronics, but APS-C sized NEX (and also FF A99 and RX1) by some reason did not get binning supported. I thought it should be easier to support it on big sensors than on small ones...

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SHood
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to Vlad4D, Aug 1, 2013

Vlad4D wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

SHood wrote:

Vlad4D wrote:

Yes, difference is huge. By some reason cameras with bigger sensors usually have much more aliasing and moire than cameras with small sensors. Anybody knows why?

It has to do with how the image is downsampled to the 1920x 1080 resolution of HD video. For example the Panasonic GH cameras do pixel binning on the sensor itself, and rather than simply discarding some of the pixels they actually do averaging of the binned rows and then the binned pixels in a row in order to keep these kinds of artifacts to a minimum. In other words the sensor was designed from the ground up to produce good results in video mode.

So it means that Panasonic GH and Sony RX-100 (and BTW cheap 20MP Sony HX models) - all managed to support pixel binning on very small sensor with very little space for additional electronics, but APS-C sized NEX (and also FF A99 and RX1) by some reason did not get binning supported. I thought it should be easier to support it on big sensors than on small ones...

The APS-C sized sensor cannot be read fast enough to read all lines @ 60p.  So they cheat by line skipping.  FF is even worse.

But one day sensors will get fast enough so that APS-C can support 1080p60 without any line skipping, but by then the smaller sensors will be doing the same at 120p.  

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captainkevin
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to 2eyesee, Aug 1, 2013

I was intending picking up a Panasonic G6, but around the same time the RX100M2 was announced which resolved 2 of the big issues I had with the RX100 - no tilt screen and inability to attach an external mic.

What made you decide to go with the RX100M2? Thinking about getting a G6 or a more compact camera mainly for videography. Thoughts?

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jbwong
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to captainkevin, Aug 1, 2013

depends on what you shoot

if you need tele shots of course you have to buy G6 with 35-100mm lens

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2eyesee
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to captainkevin, Aug 1, 2013

captainkevin wrote:

I was intending picking up a Panasonic G6, but around the same time the RX100M2 was announced which resolved 2 of the big issues I had with the RX100 - no tilt screen and inability to attach an external mic.

What made you decide to go with the RX100M2? Thinking about getting a G6 or a more compact camera mainly for videography. Thoughts?

I chose the RX100M2 over the G6 for the following reasons:

1. A more compact package - I'm more likely to get photo/video opportunities in places I wouldn't take the G6.

2. You can tilt the built-in flash to bounce it.

3. I previously owned a G5 and experienced shutter shock  - so I was a bit wary of going back to micro four thirds. (Between NEX moire and M43 shutter shock I think I've had it with mirrorless!)

4. I'm not interested in changing lenses, so if I got the G6 it would only be with a kit lens. The RX100M2 therefore has a 2 stop advantage at the wide end and is still 1/2 stop faster at the tele end.

5. The Sony sensor is more advanced than Panasonic's, which is showing its age. If you look at the DXOMark scores you can see it has significantly more dynamic range and colour depth. It's smaller than m43 though so it loses out by around 1/2 stop for ISO performance, but the faster lens more than makes up for that at the wide end and is its equal at the tele end. And impressive achievement when you consider it's a pocketable camera we are talking about.

6. Silent shutter = more discrete. I know the G6 has an electronic shutter, but it has limitations.

7. I find a tilting screen more useful than a fully articulating one where you have to flip it out and twist it around to use.

I think that covers it all!

Having said all that, if I was serious about video I would unquestionably go with the G6. The ability to add fast lenses for nice bokeh, touchscreen AF, standard mic input make it a more complete package for video work. Have a look at the EOSHD G6 review.

My requirements were for casual video use though, so the RX100M2 suits me fine. It is also said that the RX100M2 stabilisation is better than Panasonic's OIS lenses in handheld video - which is what pretty much all my video is.

I hope that helps.

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Sean Nelson
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to 2eyesee, Aug 1, 2013

2eyesee wrote:

7. I find a tilting screen more useful than a fully articulating one where you have to flip it out and twist it around to use.

There's no reason you can't just leave a fully articulated LCD with the panel in the "out" position.   You don't have to close it all the time.

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ET2
ET2
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to Sean Nelson, Aug 1, 2013

Sean Nelson wrote:

2eyesee wrote:

7. I find a tilting screen more useful than a fully articulating one where you have to flip it out and twist it around to use.

There's no reason you can't just leave a fully articulated LCD with the panel in the "out" position. You don't have to close it all the time.

No, it's not the same. A "fully articulated LCD" sticks to the side. It's awkward. You are looking at side instead of in line with the lens. The waist level shooting is better on tiltable screen than on screen that stick out to the side.

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2eyesee
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Re: RX100M2 has solved my NEX moire in video woes!
In reply to Sean Nelson, Aug 1, 2013

Sean Nelson wrote:

2eyesee wrote:

7. I find a tilting screen more useful than a fully articulating one where you have to flip it out and twist it around to use.

There's no reason you can't just leave a fully articulated LCD with the panel in the "out" position. You don't have to close it all the time.

Yes, but to tilt it up again (which is how I like to shoot) you have to flip it out to the side of the camera again and twist it around again.

This is just a personal preference. I realise fully articulating LCD's are more versatile as they face the front and be used in portrait orientation, but after using both over the years I've just found a tilting LCD serves me better.

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