Any mft's shooters thinking of jumping ship for FF nex

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
Franka T.L.
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Adding , not jumping ship
In reply to optic67, 9 months ago

While I am always highly critical about many aspect of M4/3 I would not deny it had its own merits as a system and in the field as a setup. But for decades being a multiple system user I have also learn that one just do nto fit all. So yes the FF NEX would be very nice, but I see it as addition to the total mirrorless / DSLR system instead of keep trying to ask one system to do all thing right ( which none are actually able to ).

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dougjgreen1
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The sensor comparison is transient - lenses are forever
In reply to EEmu, 9 months ago

EEmu wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

You claim FF users accept bulkier systems for some benefit, but how does that explain all the APS-C users of the Canon/Nikon systems who use the same lenses in similar bodies? Or heck, how about Four Thirds, with it's, say, 35-100mm f/2.0 lens. It's more than double the weight of Canon's FF equivalent (70-200mm f/4) and 25% heavier than the f/2.8 version. And that's not cherry-picked: Aside from the 3 kit versions, every zoom for Four Thirds was over 400g, and often nearly 1000g.

Lenses like that are primarily used for shooting fast moving action at high shutter speeds. A two full f-stop difference means that the shutter must be open for 4 times as long at the same ISO - meaning, it will be much tougher to freeze action in all but very bright daylight, or very high ISOs.

Technically accurate, but not actually true because neglect the most important thing here: the sensor. Do you think that a 16Mpx fullframe sensor performs the identically to a 16Mpx FT or 16Mpx digicam when they are set to "ISO400"?

The fact that one camera's sensor is 2 stops more sensitive than one other camera's sensor is only of interest for those two cameras at the moment in time that both are sold as current products.  That changes all the time, but one will use their lenses consistently across generations of cameras.   The fact is, right now, The most sensitive Micro 4/3 sensors happen to be about equal in sensitivity to Canon's frame cameras.  (Nikon's and Sony's happen to be better at the moment).  But that simply exemplifies the transitory nature of this comparison - 5 years ago, Canon's Full Frame sensors were the leaders, and Nikon didn't have a full frame offering, and Micro 4/3 was not even in the ballpark - but then they hit a technology limit with their particular semiconductor process at the time - something that they will surely overcome in the future.  The fact is, people buy lenses as a long term investment in a family of products that they expect to significantly outlive one or two generation of camera bodies.  Who is to say when Sony's technology will hit a similar discontinuity as Canon's did?

And yes, for all intents and purposes, the noise performance at ISO 400 is equivalent for all of these interchangeable lens camera architectures as it is for all intents and purposes nonexistent.  Differences start to be barely visible somewhere around 1600 or so, and get more significant as the ISO gets higher from there.   So, for any speed from 1600 or below, the fact of the slower lenses remains that they are slower lenses.

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dmanthree
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Re: Yes...but...
In reply to SHood, 9 months ago

SHood wrote:

dmanthree wrote:

forest3 wrote:

With possible rumoured release of FF nex , anyone out there considering jumping ship for what maybe a smaller compact FF system with all the benefits of superior sensor , although i imagine it will be costly . Mft could come under more pressure if smaller FF systems come onto the market ,there have been rumours of such from fuji and pentax . we can all see what can be done with RX1 although not interchangeable yet .

I'm waiting for them to have a selection of quality native E mount lenses. I'd like to see a high quality wide, standard, and tele zoom, just like I have with my Panasonic GH3. And I want them to be small and light, too. Like my m4/3 lenses. And I want some high quality primes, as well.

No, not holding my breath.

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Not possible.

Ya got me!

I know, and my tongue-in-cheek answer didn't come across that way. I'm very satisfied with the gear I have now and won't change to a system with huge lenses. Been there, done that, and I"m not going back.

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optic67
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Re: Jumping to a non-existent camera ?
In reply to gsergei, 9 months ago

gsergei wrote:

Are doing photography or just bored to death ?

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Sergei,
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both  

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EEmu
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Re: The sensor comparison is transient - lenses are forever
In reply to dougjgreen1, 9 months ago

dougjgreen1 wrote:

EEmu wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

You claim FF users accept bulkier systems for some benefit, but how does that explain all the APS-C users of the Canon/Nikon systems who use the same lenses in similar bodies? Or heck, how about Four Thirds, with it's, say, 35-100mm f/2.0 lens. It's more than double the weight of Canon's FF equivalent (70-200mm f/4) and 25% heavier than the f/2.8 version. And that's not cherry-picked: Aside from the 3 kit versions, every zoom for Four Thirds was over 400g, and often nearly 1000g.

Lenses like that are primarily used for shooting fast moving action at high shutter speeds. A two full f-stop difference means that the shutter must be open for 4 times as long at the same ISO - meaning, it will be much tougher to freeze action in all but very bright daylight, or very high ISOs.

Technically accurate, but not actually true because neglect the most important thing here: the sensor. Do you think that a 16Mpx fullframe sensor performs the identically to a 16Mpx FT or 16Mpx digicam when they are set to "ISO400"?

The fact that one camera's sensor is 2 stops more sensitive than one other camera's sensor is only of interest for those two cameras at the moment in time that both are sold as current products. That changes all the time, but one will use their lenses consistently across generations of cameras. The fact is, right now, The most sensitive Micro 4/3 sensors happen to be about equal in sensitivity to Canon's frame cameras. (Nikon's and Sony's happen to be better at the moment). But that simply exemplifies the transitory nature of this comparison - 5 years ago, Canon's Full Frame sensors were the leaders, and Nikon didn't have a full frame offering, and Micro 4/3 was not even in the ballpark - but then they hit a technology limit with their particular semiconductor process at the time - something that they will surely overcome in the future. The fact is, people buy lenses as a long term investment in a family of products that they expect to significantly outlive one or two generation of camera bodies. Who is to say when Sony's technology will hit a similar discontinuity as Canon's did?

And yes, for all intents and purposes, the noise performance at ISO 400 is equivalent for all of these interchangeable lens camera architectures as it is for all intents and purposes nonexistent. Differences start to be barely visible somewhere around 1600 or so, and get more significant as the ISO gets higher from there. So, for any speed from 1600 or below, the fact of the slower lenses remains that they are slower lenses.

The sensitivity of the 5DIII and E-M5 are very similar. You could have found that easily enough, but you seem to want to just assume that I was wrong and launched into some irrelevant discussion from there. Heck, you just decided to ignore my question about whether a digicam (i.e. small sensor cam like the LX7) is at ISO 400. Or are you honestly trying to say that some magic tech is going to happen that overcomes two stops of physics for m43 but doesn't work for FF?

I thought about talking about how noise works, but as you are content to ignore what I have to say and tell me I'm wrong without even the slightest justification beyond some vague handwaving it's clear that would be a waste of time. I already pointed out why f/2 on FT and f/4 on FF are equivalent, so the only thing I can do is repeat myself unless you actually come up with some scientific argument.

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dougjgreen1
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You're correct - I ignored your question about a P&S like LX7
In reply to EEmu, 9 months ago

EEmu wrote:The sensitivity of the 5DIII and E-M5 are very similar. You could have found that easily enough, but you seem to want to just assume that I was wrong and launched into some irrelevant discussion from there. Heck, you just decided to ignore my question about whether a digicam (i.e. small sensor cam like the LX7) is at ISO 400. Or are you honestly trying to say that some magic tech is going to happen that overcomes two stops of physics for m43 but doesn't work for FF?

The reason I ignored it is that it's completely irrelevant.  The LX7's sensor is a tiny fraction of the size of a Micro 4/3 camera and  Point and Shoots are not optimized for performance with a range of lenses, they are tightly coupled to a single lens, and the performance of the sensor need only match the lens it's coupled with for life.  Interchangeable lens cameras are, inherently different animals.

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optic67
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Re: Any mft's shooters thinking of jumping ship for FF nex
In reply to optic67, 9 months ago

seems to latest sony alpha rumours, the nex FF had a lot of imput from olympus and zeiss , they are saying it will be announced september and available october , and only a bit bigger than nex 7 .

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dkadc
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Re: Any mft's shooters thinking of jumping ship for FF nex
In reply to optic67, 9 months ago

Nope. I can't imagine having a svelt ILC body with a gargantuan 35mm crop sensor lens attached. A royal PITA to use, and silly looking too.
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TakingHippo
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Re: Any mft's shooters thinking of jumping ship for FF nex
In reply to optic67, 9 months ago

If i manage to go pro with my photography I would consider it, I changed from aps-c to 4/3 because of the lower prices and lighter form factor, and thats what i need out of a camera at the moment, I shoot mostly portriats/ events with my 4/3 and it serves me fine, if im doing a landscape shot i take out my old russian DSLR or my ilford range finder, for now a ff sensor is out of my price range and more than i need. and if i did go to ff i would probibly go back to a DLSR and get more for my money and get a better balanced system out of it. so short answer not yet

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Omar Armas
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Re: Any mft's shooters thinking of jumping ship for FF nex
In reply to optic67, 9 months ago

I'm more worried about learning to take better pictures, understand people and light, that's more important to me than FF vs m43.

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