Upgrade to 70D vs 7D

Started Jul 21, 2013 | Discussions
TTMartin
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to asad137, Aug 16, 2013

asad137 wrote:

TTMartin wrote:

asad137 wrote:
. . .

NOW...

It's clear that the 70D has higher resolution than the 60D and 7D. But it is ALSO clear that the resolution in the horizontal and vertical directions is the same (otherwise the moire pattern you'd seen in the center of the target wouldn't be square). Thus, your assertion that the resolution increase is due to the extra photosites under each microlens is FALSE.

In your opinion

No, t's not an opinion. That the moire pattern would be asymmetric if there were increased resolution in one direction is a FACT. The photos show clearly that it's not. It's ok to be wrong, just admit it and move on. The fact that you're even arguing this point is mind-boggling.

Given that the 6D is a FULL frame sensor and the 70D is an APS-C sensor the perceived megapixels or apparent resolution should be much lower.

Um, NO, that is COMPLETELY wrong. I don't think you understand optics.

The photos of the test scene are taken with the same framing, different lenses (50mm f/1.4 @f/8 for the 70D, 85mm f/1.8 @ f/11 for the 6D), and with sensors of the same number of pixels.

What this means is that a given feature in the test scene (say, the resolution target in the middle or the coin on the bottle) will span the same number of pixels in both images. If each picture was taken with a perfect lens (no aberration), and each camera's AA filter was designed to cut off at the same spatial frequency (relative to each sensor's Nyquist frequency), then the resolution would be the same. Full-frame vs. APS-C is irrelevant.

Of course, that's not real life, just a toy example. In reality, we don't know how each camera's AA filter is tuned -- they could be slightly different. A more interesting effect comes from the lens itself -- because of the higher physical pixel density on the 70D sensor, the lens itself needs to resolve more detail (because it's projecting something of a fixed angular size onto a smaller physical area in order to match the framing). However, I think it's pretty safe to assume that, at least at the center at those apertures, the lens is outresolving the sensor in both cases.

Wow, you certainly seem like you know what you are talking about. I mean you even type things in ALL CAPS, so people know its true and everything.

So I figured I better test your statements. Problem is except for the 70D and the 6D Canon really doesn't have any current cameras where the crop sensor and full frame both have the same megapixels. Luckily Nikon does!

The Nikon D600 and the Nikon D7100, both 24 megapixels. Though it's not really fair since the D600 has a AA filter and the D7100 doesn't, so based on your assertions the D7100 should be sharper than D600. But, I pressed forward anyway. I downloaded the RAW files from both cameras and did the cropping and RAW conversion using Nikon View NX2 with all default settings.

Bringing up the two files side by side, I could immediately tell that one wasn't as sharp. Was it that nasty AA filter that plays such a central roll in your spiel taking its toll on the D600s sharpness? Imagine my surprise (I wasn't really surprised, but, I'm pretending I was for your benefit) when I found that the less sharp one was the D7100.

I mean that's terrible, you sounded like you knew what you were talking about, yet it seems you were so wrong.

And, guess what I didn't have to use all caps to make what I just wrote true.

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TTMartin
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to TTMartin, Aug 16, 2013

Oh in case anyone is interested here's the 70D and the D7100 together, again, hardly fair since the D70 is only 20 megapixels, and the D7100 is 24 megapixel and has no AA filter to boot.

Both RAW conversions were done with the manufacturer's included RAW converter (DPP and View NX2) using the default (as shot) settings.

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asad137
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to TTMartin, Aug 16, 2013

TTMartin wrote:

asad137 wrote:

TTMartin wrote:

asad137 wrote:
. . .

NOW...

It's clear that the 70D has higher resolution than the 60D and 7D. But it is ALSO clear that the resolution in the horizontal and vertical directions is the same (otherwise the moire pattern you'd seen in the center of the target wouldn't be square). Thus, your assertion that the resolution increase is due to the extra photosites under each microlens is FALSE.

In your opinion

No, t's not an opinion. That the moire pattern would be asymmetric if there were increased resolution in one direction is a FACT. The photos show clearly that it's not. It's ok to be wrong, just admit it and move on. The fact that you're even arguing this point is mind-boggling.

Given that the 6D is a FULL frame sensor and the 70D is an APS-C sensor the perceived megapixels or apparent resolution should be much lower.

Um, NO, that is COMPLETELY wrong. I don't think you understand optics.

The photos of the test scene are taken with the same framing, different lenses (50mm f/1.4 @f/8 for the 70D, 85mm f/1.8 @ f/11 for the 6D), and with sensors of the same number of pixels.

What this means is that a given feature in the test scene (say, the resolution target in the middle or the coin on the bottle) will span the same number of pixels in both images. If each picture was taken with a perfect lens (no aberration), and each camera's AA filter was designed to cut off at the same spatial frequency (relative to each sensor's Nyquist frequency), then the resolution would be the same. Full-frame vs. APS-C is irrelevant.

Of course, that's not real life, just a toy example. In reality, we don't know how each camera's AA filter is tuned -- they could be slightly different. A more interesting effect comes from the lens itself -- because of the higher physical pixel density on the 70D sensor, the lens itself needs to resolve more detail (because it's projecting something of a fixed angular size onto a smaller physical area in order to match the framing). However, I think it's pretty safe to assume that, at least at the center at those apertures, the lens is outresolving the sensor in both cases.

Wow, you certainly seem like you know what you are talking about. I mean you even type things in ALL CAPS, so people know its true and everything.

It's for emphasis. You know, so that the written word can better mimic the tone I'm trying to convey (that is, one of incredulous exasperation).

So I figured I better test your statements. Problem is except for the 70D and the 6D Canon really doesn't have any current cameras where the crop sensor and full frame both have the same megapixels. Luckily Nikon does!

The Nikon D600 and the Nikon D7100, both 24 megapixels.

The 6D and 70D are actually a better example, since they have literally the exact same output resolution. The D600 and D7100 are actually slightly different. Not that it matters much for this comparison, but it does point to your lack of attention to detail.

Though it's not really fair since the D600 has a AA filter and the D7100 doesn't, so based on your assertions the D7100 should be sharper than D600. But, I pressed forward anyway. I downloaded the RAW files from both cameras and did the cropping and RAW conversion using Nikon View NX2 with all default settings.

Do you think maybe that the default settings for the D600 and D7100 are different? Like, for instance, perhaps the D7100 defaults don't apply as much sharpening? Just a thought, as I'm not going to bother downloading NX2 to find out.

Oh, or maybe it might have something to do with the fact that the D7100 shot is taken at f/8 while the D600 shot is at f/11, meaning the D7100 shot will be (slightly) more affected by diffraction effects.

Bringing up the two files side by side, I could immediately tell that one wasn't as sharp. Was it that nasty AA filter that plays such a central roll in your spiel taking its toll on the D600s sharpness? Imagine my surprise (I wasn't really surprised, but, I'm pretending I was for your benefit) when I found that the less sharp one was the D7100.

I mean that's terrible, you sounded like you knew what you were talking about, yet it seems you were so wrong.

Actually...it doesn't mean I'm wrong. There could be plenty of reasons why one camera isn't as sharp as another (some of which I gave in my own post!). My point is that FF vs. APS-C has nothing to do with it. One example of a particular FF sensor that resolves more than a particular APS-C sensor with various differences in physical setup is not proof. (at any rate, to my eye based on the DPReview comparison tool, the D7100 looks to have ever so slightly more detail. But that's just an opinion).

Unless you can give a physical mechanism (that is...an explanation based on physics and optics) why a FF sensor will resolve more than an APS-C sensor, all else equal (and in this case, "all else" means including a lens that has equivalent resolution relative to the pixel pitch), then all your examples of comparisons between dissimilar setups are meaningless.

So, please, enlighten all of us with your deep and profound knowledge of optics. I'm sure we'd all love to hear it (and I hope your explanation doesn't include any 'magic' like your ridiculous theory about why the 70D is sharper than the 7D).

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WilbaW
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Re: I've figured it out.
In reply to WilbaW, Aug 18, 2013

WilbaW wrote:

The significant fault with the 60D Multi-controller FMPOV is the bumps are all the same, so occasionally I press the a diagonal one when I want left or right. I've thought about trying to build up every second one so that, for instance, the diagonal set are more prominent, but I haven't had the courage to paint nail polish on them yet (any other ideas, anyone?).

No other ideas... okay.

I put clear nail polish on the diagonal bumps and it makes a HUGE difference. Now I can tell immediately where my thumb is touching the Multi-controller. If I want to go to a diagonal point I press on the corresponding raised bump, and if I want to go to one of the left, right, up, or down points, I press evenly between the adjacent two raised bumps. No more feeling around for the orientation of indistinguishable bumps, or pressing the wrong one and having to correct.

My advice on how to do it is to dab drops rather than brush the polish onto the bumps, and repeat 3-5 times until the raised bumps are unmistakable.

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RedFox88
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to Chenezo5507, Aug 18, 2013

Chenezo5507 wrote:

People may not see major improvements in the cores specification that they want, since the AF system, Continuous shooting speed remains same, Canon 7D still shooters should wait for upcoming Canon 8D or 7D MkII camera, If you are a Still+Video shooter you must upgrade you DSLR to 70D.

but the 7D2 is rumored to be over a year away from being a product.

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Andy0x1
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to dgriffiths, Sep 20, 2013

dgriffiths wrote:

Hi,

I currently have a 40D. I have had it for years and love it! I'm looking at upgrading to a 7D or possibly a 70D (if only the 5D Mark III was affordable... sigh). I'm really excited to get better low light performance. I take my camera every where with me... from sea kayaking in California to trekking around Washington DC... to from the summit of Mt. Whitney to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. I mostly take pictures on wildlife/landscapes, sports and like to play around with macro. I am an avid enthusiast. I have been paid to do some event photography but I plan to keep it more as a hobby than a career.

I've read the spec sheets and a whole heap of articles... but I'm curious, which camera would you recommend?

Cheers,

Dan

Neither - buy a 'faster' lens if your looking for better low light.  the 7D/70D is not going to do much better in low light than your 40D.  It will however offer you faster ISO speeds (if you don't mind additional noise, and are more interested in freezing motion.)

Of course the upgrade comes with dozens of other improvements, just don't expect low-light to be one of them.

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Jone Chan
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to dgriffiths, 11 months ago

My recommendation is to go with the 70D. In terms of AF and speed it’s on a par with the 7D. It offers a slightly larger image and performs better at high ISO. Really the only advantage that the 7D has is 1FPS faster shooting speed, magnesium shell and a viewfinder that covers 100% of the image. Whilst I do love a 100% viewfinder, the 70D is 98% and likely this will not affect your image making abilities. See the detail difference here: http://thedigitalcamera.net/canon-eos-70d-vs-7d-whats-the-difference-between-them/

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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False statements...
In reply to Jone Chan, 11 months ago

Jone Chan wrote:

My recommendation is to go with the 70D. In terms of AF and speed it’s on a par with the 7D.

False on two accounts. First of all the 70D focuses slower and less deciside. Then the AF is crippled by the lack of spot AF and focus point extension modes. So in what way is the 70D on par with the 7D - only in number of AF points, in AF capabilities the 7D is far ahead of the 70D...

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timmer350
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Re: False statements...
In reply to Karl Gnter Wnsch, 11 months ago

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

Jone Chan wrote:

My recommendation is to go with the 70D. In terms of AF and speed it’s on a par with the 7D.

False on two accounts. First of all the 70D focuses slower and less deciside. Then the AF is crippled by the lack of spot AF and focus point extension modes. So in what way is the 70D on par with the 7D - only in number of AF points, in AF capabilities the 7D is far ahead of the 70D...

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Karl Günter Wünsch

This has me hesitating on upgrading from a 50D to the 70D... I really would have liked the spot AF for bird photography. And as of yet, no-one has posted anything about the size of the 70D center AF point, which is critical in tough situations (which happens a lot of the time).

T

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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Re: False statements...
In reply to timmer350, 11 months ago

timmer350 wrote:

This has me hesitating on upgrading from a 50D to the 70D... I really would have liked the spot AF for bird photography. And as of yet, no-one has posted anything about the size of the 70D center AF point, which is critical in tough situations (which happens a lot of the time).

As far as I can tell it's as big as the one on the 7D without switching it to spot - which happens to be larger than the one on the 50D...

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eremiya
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to dgriffiths, 11 months ago

I was looking for a 7D for bird photography, and I am thinking of making the step. I have found this one , that I actually found on this site . Anything in particuliar that I should be aware of?

Any advice would be apprieciated!

Thank you!

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shii
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to dgriffiths, 11 months ago

dgriffiths wrote:

Hi,

I currently have a 40D. I have had it for years and love it! I'm looking at upgrading to a 7D or possibly a 70D (if only the 5D Mark III was affordable... sigh). I'm really excited to get better low light performance. I take my camera every where with me... from sea kayaking in California to trekking around Washington DC... to from the summit of Mt. Whitney to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. I mostly take pictures on wildlife/landscapes, sports and like to play around with macro. I am an avid enthusiast. I have been paid to do some event photography but I plan to keep it more as a hobby than a career.

I've read the spec sheets and a whole heap of articles... but I'm curious, which camera would you recommend?

Cheers,

Dan

I went through the same deliberation lately. I have a 5D2 but want a crop camera for birding. I handled both the 7D and 70D in a local store. 70D is nice but eventually I decided on the 7D for the following reasons.

1. No difference in image quality between the cameras.

2. Better AF on the 7D

3. Much larger buffer depth on the 7D (This is important for actions.)

4. 7D has better handling, is better constructed and is more responsive (for me)

5. 7D balance better with my 100-400.

6. I do not need video or flip-out screen though they are very nice to have.

7. I can get a refurbished 7D with 1-year Canon warranty for $899. Based on my experience with my refurbished 5D2 and what I have read about refurbished 7Ds, I hope my copy will be practically brand new. I could have waited for the 7D2 but I do not know if and when it is going to come out. I believe a refurbished 7D will be a cost-effective way to get started on bird photography, not months down the road, but now.

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kcamacho11
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to SelSol, 11 months ago

SelSol wrote:

It's probably worth noting that despite being a few years old, the 7D is still amongst the top two or three APS-C cameras available, and I doubt you'll be disappointed with it.

You have got to be kidding. Maybe back then, but certainly not today.

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Christoph Stephan
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to shii, 11 months ago

shii wrote:

I went through the same deliberation lately. I have a 5D2 but want a crop camera for birding. I handled both the 7D and 70D in a local store. 70D is nice but eventually I decided on the 7D for the following reasons.

1. No difference in image quality between the cameras.

2. Better AF on the 7D

3. Much larger buffer depth on the 7D (This is important for actions.)

4. 7D has better handling, is better constructed

Everything else you say being correct, I would dispute this one. The extra weight and size of the 7D compared to the 70D is compelling for me alone. In my opinion, to much weight (pun inteneded) is placed on a magnesium body whereas modern compostie materials are just as sturdy. On birding and walking trips weight is very important, particularly as the telephotos aren't exactly lightweight as well.

If they could shave off sopme weight and size of the 7D (successor) down to that of the 70D while maintaing the same functionality and nice 100% viewfinder, this would be a dream camera.

and is more responsive (for me)

5. 7D balance better with my 100-400.

6. I do not need video or flip-out screen though they are very nice to have.

7. I can get a refurbished 7D with 1-year Canon warranty for $899. Based on my experience with my refurbished 5D2 and what I have read about refurbished 7Ds, I hope my copy will be practically brand new. I could have waited for the 7D2 but I do not know if and when it is going to come out. I believe a refurbished 7D will be a cost-effective way to get started on bird photography, not months down the road, but now.

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to Christoph Stephan, 11 months ago

Christoph Stephan wrote:

If they could shave off sopme weight and size of the 7D (successor) down to that of the 70D while maintaing the same functionality and nice 100% viewfinder, this would be a dream camera.

Not for me, the balance between camera weight and lens in use is as if not more important. We are talking about a few 100 grams, not kilograms in this context and the way the weight of the 7D balances with for example the 400mm f/5.6L USM makes it better to handle than the 70D...

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Christoph Stephan
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to Karl Gnter Wnsch, 11 months ago

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

Christoph Stephan wrote:

If they could shave off sopme weight and size of the 7D (successor) down to that of the 70D while maintaing the same functionality and nice 100% viewfinder, this would be a dream camera.

Not for me, the balance between camera weight and lens in use is as if not more important. We are talking about a few 100 grams, not kilograms in this context and the way the weight of the 7D balances with for example the 400mm f/5.6L USM makes it better to handle than the 70D...

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Karl Günter Wünsch

Hmmm... this argument comes up here everysooften. It does not really count for me. My EOS 300 (for slide film) is tiny and ultra lightweight compared to every digital body (including the Rebels) and I used it without any problems with my EF 100-400mm IS during a Namibia trip.

If there were a digital SLR with the  viewfinder size of my EOS300 (analogue) and similarly lightweight and small, this would really be a dream come true!

Why on Earth they made even the grip size of the 7D bigger than the (ergonomically already perfect) 20D, 40D or 50D, this was really not necessary!

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Nafees A Bazmi
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to dgriffiths, 11 months ago

dgriffiths wrote:

Hi,

I currently have a 40D. I have had it for years and love it! I'm looking at upgrading to a 7D or possibly a 70D (if only the 5D Mark III was affordable... sigh). I'm really excited to get better low light performance. I take my camera every where with me... from sea kayaking in California to trekking around Washington DC... to from the summit of Mt. Whitney to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. I mostly take pictures on wildlife/landscapes, sports and like to play around with macro. I am an avid enthusiast. I have been paid to do some event photography but I plan to keep it more as a hobby than a career.

I've read the spec sheets and a whole heap of articles... but I'm curious, which camera would you recommend?

Cheers,

Dan

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only articulated  + touch screen and less or more digic5 is the main difference comparing to 7d. if i dont want the screen options than what is the big upgrade?

7D is superb for those who have them and for those who dont have .. they can sure shot get the 70D. but the low light/ fast lens is must.

nBazmi

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Ranjan
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to shii, 11 months ago

shii wrote:

I went through the same deliberation lately. I have a 5D2 but want a crop camera for birding. I handled both the 7D and 70D in a local store. 70D is nice but eventually I decided on the 7D for the following reasons.

1. No difference in image quality between the cameras.

I neither own a 7D nor 70D but got a chance today to test both cameras for birding photography, the low light performance is way better on 70D than on 7D.

2. Better AF on the 7D

In my experience I got 50% success rate with 7D whereas 90% with 70D shooting bird in fight both camera had similar multi point AF, what I noticed is that 70D has larger focus & 9 (cross type) points whereas 7D has smaller focus 5 points. This test was done with a friend who actually own a 7D & his shooting experience also confirmed that 7D success rate is lower than 70D, we both shot birds in flight & had similar experience.

3. Much larger buffer depth on the 7D (This is important for actions.)

Again my experience differs here but that may be due to the different cards both cameras were using, 70D outperformed 7D

4. 7D has better handling, is better constructed and is more responsive (for me)

Agreed 7d has better handling, 70d is a bit smaller.

5. 7D balance better with my 100-400.

this is subjective I am sure if you get used to 70D you will like that balance too.

6. I do not need video or flip-out screen though they are very nice to have.

Flip LCD is great as you can shoot from unimaginable angles using wifi connection of phone/tablet that opens up a huge possibilities in wildlife & birding photography.

Will post results in a day or two once I process the raw files from 70D

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Kevin Coppalotti
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to Ranjan, 11 months ago

Ranjan wrote:

shii wrote:

I went through the same deliberation lately. I have a 5D2 but want a crop camera for birding. I handled both the 7D and 70D in a local store. 70D is nice but eventually I decided on the 7D for the following reasons.

1. No difference in image quality between the cameras.

I neither own a 7D nor 70D but got a chance today to test both cameras for birding photography, the low light performance is way better on 70D than on 7D.

2. Better AF on the 7D

In my experience I got 50% success rate with 7D whereas 90% with 70D shooting bird in fight both camera had similar multi point AF, what I noticed is that 70D has larger focus & 9 (cross type) points whereas 7D has smaller focus 5 points. This test was done with a friend who actually own a 7D & his shooting experience also confirmed that 7D success rate is lower than 70D, we both shot birds in flight & had similar experience.

3. Much larger buffer depth on the 7D (This is important for actions.)

Again my experience differs here but that may be due to the different cards both cameras were using, 70D outperformed 7D

Ranjan Sharma

Thanks Ranjan, this is what i was looking for, about to pull the trigger on a purchase.

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Gabebalazs
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Re: Upgrade to 70D vs 7D
In reply to Kevin Coppalotti, 11 months ago

I've been a member here for some time but mostly a reader and I rarely post.

But I felt I needed to post here regarding the IQ difference between the 7D and 70D.

I own both. I've owned the 7D (actually 2 copies for a while) since 2010. It was my main camera until I got my 6D a few months ago. I used my 7D mostly for wildlife shooting.

I got my 70D a month ago. Since then I have compared the 7D and 70D rigorously shooting test scenes with same lens, settings, lights etc and then analyzing the images side by side.

I found that obviously jpeg is much better from the 70D, by a significant margin, especially at higher ISOs. OK, that may not mean much other than jpeg processing and hardware has improved a lot since 2010, still I'm happy with the way jpegs look.

However, the 70D has better IQ even in RAW. Both in DPP and in ACR/CS6. It has less noise at all ISOs, though by a very small margin. However, the nature of the noise is also different, it is better, less blotchy in the 70D, more uniform in nature and can be dealt with in post more easily than the noise in the 7D. Deep shadow noise at higher ISOs in the 7D tends to have these annoying white specks too, which the 70D doesn't have. The biggest difference is in dark shadow noise.

Pushing shadows is also better in the 70D, less noise in the shadows and less pattern noise.

I have not tested AF speed and keeper rate comparing the 2 cameras directly but I've taken my 70D out to shoot birds in flight and I was impressed (I've shot probably 15-20K BIF photos with my 7D). I felt I had a better keeper rate than shooting with the 7D.  So the comment earlier that the 7D has a faster and more accurate AF system is simply false.

I welcome the size and handling of the 70D; it's similar to my 6D, as is the multi control pad. I liked the joystick on my 7D too, but it's just a matter of muscle memory. Since I've been shooting with my 6D and 70D, I find myself slightly lost on my 7D whenever I shoot with it.

Again, I do still have the 7D and still believe it's a great camera. I also recommend it to people suggesting purchasing it at low used or refurb prices. But I have to say that I am very impressed with the 70D in terms of IQ, AF and all the features (great AF microadjustment - both ends of the zoom, like the 6D. Flippy screen is very handy, so is touchscreen; VERY useful minimum shutter speed in AV mode with auto ISO - a great help at events; etc.)

I am an experienced semi-pro photographer shooting anything from engagement photos to events, pro real estate photos and award winning nature shots. Still, I could care less what and where the 70D is classified in the canon line-up (enthusiast?). All I care is that to me it is a great tool and I believe it is an upgrade, albeit a minor one, over the 7D for what I'm shooting and what matters to me.

 Gabebalazs's gear list:Gabebalazs's gear list
Canon EF-S 10-18mm f/4.5–5.6 IS STM
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