Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?

Started Jul 13, 2013 | Discussions
Jefftan
Senior MemberPosts: 1,112
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Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
Jul 13, 2013

If not why it can't capture any detail when it is suppose to use the same Nikon Coolpix A?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-a/nikon-aA.HTM

These images are best quality JPEGs straight out of the camera, at default settings including noise reduction. All cameras in this comparison were shot with our very sharp reference lenses.

Is it because of noise reduction?

Tom Caldwell
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Re: Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
In reply to Jefftan, Jul 13, 2013

Jefftan wrote:

If not why it can't capture any detail when it is suppose to use the same Nikon Coolpix A?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-a/nikon-aA.HTM

These images are best quality JPEGs straight out of the camera, at default settings including noise reduction. All cameras in this comparison were shot with our very sharp reference lenses.

Is it because of noise reduction?

Over at the Nikon forum they are probably worrying about "but the Ricoh does better with fine detail in the mosaic crop".

I have no idea why these guys had so much trouble with the reds but it has been thrashed to death already.

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Tom Caldwell

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Mattoid
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Re: Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
In reply to Jefftan, Jul 13, 2013

That is really weird. It does seem to have a problem telling the difference between bright red and dark red.  If you look at the difference between the GR and the d7100 it's astonishing.  It's not even a resolution or a focus issue.  I can't understand that at all!  Although one consolation is that the GR has more detail on the black fabric than the d7100 in the full size images.

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cptrios
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Re: Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
In reply to Mattoid, Jul 13, 2013

Ugh, this again? Interestingly, I've never actually looked at the JPEGs in this comparison...and they're an even more extreme example of my original conclusion. Yeah, the Ricoh doesn't seem to differentiate much between the light red and dark red on the cloth - but the level of detail in the cloth itself is much, much better than on the A. The A's detail is totally fuzzed out. It's almost as though Ricoh overcorrected for the tendency of pretty much every digital camera I've ever used to saturate reds way too much.

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Tom Caldwell
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Re: Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
In reply to cptrios, Jul 13, 2013

cptrios wrote:

Ugh, this again? Interestingly, I've never actually looked at the JPEGs in this comparison...and they're an even more extreme example of my original conclusion. Yeah, the Ricoh doesn't seem to differentiate much between the light red and dark red on the cloth - but the level of detail in the cloth itself is much, much better than on the A. The A's detail is totally fuzzed out. It's almost as though Ricoh overcorrected for the tendency of pretty much every digital camera I've ever used to saturate reds way too much.

The GR had a serious "flogging" for its  "reds" when there was only a few in captivity.  Now that "everyone" has one the problem seems to have gone away.

We must draw our own conclusions.

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Tom Caldwell

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photoreddi
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Re: Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
In reply to Tom Caldwell, Jul 14, 2013

Tom Caldwell wrote:

cptrios wrote:

Ugh, this again? Interestingly, I've never actually looked at the JPEGs in this comparison...and they're an even more extreme example of my original conclusion. Yeah, the Ricoh doesn't seem to differentiate much between the light red and dark red on the cloth - but the level of detail in the cloth itself is much, much better than on the A. The A's detail is totally fuzzed out. It's almost as though Ricoh overcorrected for the tendency of pretty much every digital camera I've ever used to saturate reds way too much.

The GR had a serious "flogging" for its "reds" when there was only a few in captivity. Now that "everyone" has one the problem seems to have gone away.

Wasn't it primarily a problem for Adobe software users that went away* when better support was finally added for the GR?

*the problem, not the users.

.

We must draw our own conclusions.

Conclusion - we trifle with the Red Queen at our peril.

The Queen of Hearts is a character from the book Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by the writer and mathematician Lewis Carroll. She is a foul-tempered monarch, that Carroll himself pictured as "a blind fury", and who is quick to decree death sentences at the slightest offense. Her most famous line, one which she repeats often, is "Off with their heads!"

The Queen is referred to as a card from a pack of playing cards by Alice, yet somehow she is able to talk and is the ruler of the lands in the story, alongside the King of Hearts.

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Tom Caldwell
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Re: Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
In reply to photoreddi, Jul 14, 2013

photoreddi wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

cptrios wrote:

Ugh, this again? Interestingly, I've never actually looked at the JPEGs in this comparison...and they're an even more extreme example of my original conclusion. Yeah, the Ricoh doesn't seem to differentiate much between the light red and dark red on the cloth - but the level of detail in the cloth itself is much, much better than on the A. The A's detail is totally fuzzed out. It's almost as though Ricoh overcorrected for the tendency of pretty much every digital camera I've ever used to saturate reds way too much.

The GR had a serious "flogging" for its "reds" when there was only a few in captivity. Now that "everyone" has one the problem seems to have gone away.

Wasn't it primarily a problem for Adobe software users that went away* when better support was finally added for the GR?

*the problem, not the users.

.

We must draw our own conclusions.

Conclusion - we trifle with the Red Queen at our peril.

The Queen of Hearts is a character from the book Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by the writer and mathematician Lewis Carroll. She is a foul-tempered monarch, that Carroll himself pictured as "a blind fury", and who is quick to decree death sentences at the slightest offense. Her most famous line, one which she repeats often, is "Off with their heads!"

The Queen is referred to as a card from a pack of playing cards by Alice, yet somehow she is able to talk and is the ruler of the lands in the story, alongside the King of Hearts.

Quite.

At the time it sounded like it was the end of the GR even before it was in users hands.  And here it is back on another thread like the ghost in a haunted house. Right from the start it was acknowledged that it only showed in raw files processed off camera and never in the Ricoh in-camera processed jpg files.  If the camera could get them right in-camera then it must be the beloved pp software that got it wrong.  Not really interested but did the initial reviewer check the in-camera jpg files against each other or wwas it "just test the pp software and pretend they were testing the camera?" I seem to bang my head against the wall as regards in-camera jpg files, there seems to be some current of thought that what is reviewed in playback is the raw file data.  There is so little confidence in the in-camera capability to process raw files that many would prefer to dispense with jpg capture entirely and go off and wrestle with work arounds for their reds.

I am not a "jpg shooter" as such and understand that raw files are capable of tweaking but how come running raw files through Adobe default settings can be any better than accepting the jpg files on default settings that Ricoh has specifically tuned its in-camera raw file processor to make?  Now that Ricoh includes a basic raw file adjustment set of tools in camera there is even less need to back the basic default settings of Adobe against the cameras capability. That Adobe can be wrong is shown by the heat (incorrectly initially put on the camera) over the reds issue.

So I only look for acknowledgement that cameras can process reasonable raw to jpg in-camera even if many quite reasonably choose to process raw 100%.  Otherwise Ricoh might reasonably remove all firmware sophistication, most of the adjustment capability on their cameras, no need for playback as it needs a jpg to do so (and an unadjusted jpg is going to look pretty iffy), and everyone can simply fix everything up in raw.  Seems like back to the days of film when you never really new for sure what you had until it came back from the lab.

Back in the days of my early ownersip of Canon dslr cameras - like D60 and 10D I was utterly amazed at how good the jpg files were ex-camera.  Then I found that I made mistakes and the in-camera jpg files were not so good but I could make them better if I processed the raw file.  Remarkably better.  But on other occasions I had the lucky shot and hardly needed to touch the raw file version and in truth could not make the camera created jpg any better.

I guess we all make mistakes and we can make improvements from the raw file data.  I do raw, its a good insurance policy.

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Tom Caldwell

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Ray Sachs
Senior MemberPosts: 9,229Gear list
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Re: Is this red cloth thing a real proble of GR?
In reply to photoreddi, Jul 15, 2013

photoreddi wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

cptrios wrote:

Ugh, this again? Interestingly, I've never actually looked at the JPEGs in this comparison...and they're an even more extreme example of my original conclusion. Yeah, the Ricoh doesn't seem to differentiate much between the light red and dark red on the cloth - but the level of detail in the cloth itself is much, much better than on the A. The A's detail is totally fuzzed out. It's almost as though Ricoh overcorrected for the tendency of pretty much every digital camera I've ever used to saturate reds way too much.

The GR had a serious "flogging" for its "reds" when there was only a few in captivity. Now that "everyone" has one the problem seems to have gone away.

Wasn't it primarily a problem for Adobe software users that went away* when better support was finally added for the GR?

FWIW, that wasn't the same thing. That was just a fairly gross mis-representation of the COLOR red under certain circumstances using Ricoh's "embedded" color profile before there was an available (or until we figured out how to install) ACR updated profile. It didn't show up with fairly small amounts of not all that bright red, but with a lot of bright red, it was pretty bad. My example shots that showed me the problem were a basket of bright orange peppers and another of bright red tomatoes - these came through horribly dull and washed out compared with the jpegs and corrected raw shots.

This red detail thing is something entirely different. I never saw it, but I also never looked for it (the detail in fabrics has never been the kind of thing I care about in my shooting) and it wouldn't tend to show up in a shot of peppers or tomatoes where the color was so off. So I don't know anything about how valid it is or isn't, what the cause may or may not be, etc. but I do know its NOT the same thing that was identified when using the un-fixed color profile in the early days.

FWIW

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

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