Moiré disaster on the E-5

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
Barry Stewart
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Moiré disaster on the E-5
9 months ago

A friend needed some head shots for a new job he started and he asked me to do the shoot. I brought my E-5 with ZD-50 — as well as my E-PL5.

I stayed with the E-5, though once I got back to my computer, I saw that his suit was turned into wood grain from all the moiré. Rather than reshoot, I used a gausian blur on the suit.

A real pain... and I wonder if the E-PL5 would have been bothered by it. I know my E-1 or E-330 would have done just fine.

Others are forewarned about this potential problem, due to the missing AA filter. I only edited the best 12-15 shots... but I would cry if there were 5 guys wearing the same suit at a wedding!

Sorry... the moiré pattern only seems to show on certain magnifications. This, at least, shows that it was a fairly ordinary suit.

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Art_P
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Not the camera?
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Could it be your viewer program? Or monitor? I viewed the original you provided and saw no moiré.

I've had shots that don't view right under some zoom levels, but if the image displays fine full res or higher mag, the problem isn't with the image.

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veroman
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Re: Moiré disaster on the E-5
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Sorry, but I don't see it. I see a pattern to the suit that looks pretty normal ... I mean it simply looks like a patterned weave.  Is your post the corrected version?

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Airmel
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What disaster?
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Can you post an original uncorrected copy of the photo?

This one doesn't seem to have any problems.

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goblin
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Re: Moiré disaster on the E-5
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

This one is the most non-desastrous pic I've seen so far this year

Title should be changed by a moderator. While there is probably a problem with the viewer of the OP, the thread title gets indexed in all the search engines.

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alatchin
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Barry Here is the problem
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Monitors Cause Moire, if you magnification and detail interfere with the monitor, Moise is created. Downressing can also cause moire... Sometimes when you want to send a lower res file to a client, you have to blur the original before you downres, otherwise you get moire.

This file is perfectly fine as far as i can see.

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Great Bustard
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"Disaster" is a bit strong.
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Barry Stewart wrote:

A friend needed some head shots for a new job he started and he asked me to do the shoot. I brought my E-5 with ZD-50 — as well as my E-PL5.

I stayed with the E-5, though once I got back to my computer, I saw that his suit was turned into wood grain from all the moiré. Rather than reshoot, I used a gausian blur on the suit.

A real pain... and I wonder if the E-PL5 would have been bothered by it. I know my E-1 or E-330 would have done just fine.

Others are forewarned about this potential problem, due to the missing AA filter. I only edited the best 12-15 shots... but I would cry if there were 5 guys wearing the same suit at a wedding!

Sorry... the moiré pattern only seems to show on certain magnifications. This, at least, shows that it was a fairly ordinary suit.

I see color moire on the right (his left) of the suit, but it's relatively mild, in my opinion.  So, either I'm missing the disaster, or your standards are higher than mine.

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Barry Stewart
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Re: What disaster?
In reply to Airmel, 9 months ago

Please note my comment in the photo caption. What loaded onto DPR's site cannot show the pattern for some reason.

Other than cropping the head off (for privacy), that is an uncorrected photo.

The moiré shows up clearly in iPhoto or in PS Elements and in Apple's desktop viewer — but only under certain +/- magnifications. Curiously, in iPhoto, the moiré doesn't show up until you click on 'edit', then the pattern hits hard — at the same magnification.

Put the file on the desktop and open it with the viewer and the moiré is there again.

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Barry Stewart
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Re: Moiré 'concern' on the E-5
In reply to goblin, 9 months ago

goblin wrote:

This one is the most non-desastrous pic I've seen so far this year

I guess I'll take that as a compliment, LOL!

Title should be changed by a moderator. While there is probably a problem with the viewer of the OP, the thread title gets indexed in all the search engines.

I am totally fine with that, if the moderator wants to adopt the title I've used on this post. Moderator?

I have had the E-5 for 2.5 years now (using the same computer and software) and I have not seen this problem come up before. Perfect storm scenario? As I say elsewhere, I sure wouldn't want that to affect a whole wedding worth of shots.

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Barry Stewart
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Re: "Disaster" is a bit strong.
In reply to Great Bustard, 9 months ago

Great Bustard wrote:

I see color moire on the right (his left) of the suit, but it's relatively mild, in my opinion. So, either I'm missing the disaster, or your standards are higher than mine.

GB: No, your photo standards are generally higher than mine, I'd say — but yes, all of you guys and myself are unable to see — via DPR — what I've seen today, straight from my camera card.

Believe me, all of you would be saying "Whoa!" if you could see what I can see on the original JPEGs. It may be my monitor and/or software — but it hasn't shown me that in the last 2.5 years.

I'm still open to suggestions.

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Stacey_K
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Re: What disaster?
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Barry Stewart wrote:

Please note my comment in the photo caption. What loaded onto DPR's site cannot show the pattern for some reason.

Other than cropping the head off (for privacy), that is an uncorrected photo.

The moiré shows up clearly in iPhoto or in PS Elements and in Apple's desktop viewer — but only under certain +/- magnifications. Curiously, in iPhoto, the moiré doesn't show up until you click on 'edit', then the pattern hits hard — at the same magnification.

Put the file on the desktop and open it with the viewer and the moiré is there again.

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Barry

If it doesn't show at 100%, it's -not- the camera. Software editing programs can do this at various "magnifications" soft proofing.

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Barry Stewart
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Re: What disaster? Stacey
In reply to Stacey_K, 9 months ago

Stacey_K wrote:

If it doesn't show at 100%, it's -not- the camera. Software editing programs can do this at various "magnifications" soft proofing.

That's what I'm hearing from various people here. I guess I don't shoot a lot of suits like this one, because this is the first I've seen of this problem.

Are you saying that other cameras would be equally as likely to have this problem?

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OlyChamp
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Re: "Disaster" is a bit strong.
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Barry Stewart wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

I see color moire on the right (his left) of the suit, but it's relatively mild, in my opinion. So, either I'm missing the disaster, or your standards are higher than mine.

GB: No, your photo standards are generally higher than mine, I'd say — but yes, all of you guys and myself are unable to see — via DPR — what I've seen today, straight from my camera card.

Believe me, all of you would be saying "Whoa!" if you could see what I can see on the original JPEGs. It may be my monitor and/or software — but it hasn't shown me that in the last 2.5 years.

I'm still open to suggestions.

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Barry

Well it won't be your monitor playing up then, if you see it fine in DPR.  I'd go with an earlier suggestion it's your PP software.

OR

The pattern on the suit when viewed in differing circumstances makes it look like there is an issue, when plainly there isn't in some viewers.

Panic averted, don't shoot suits

Thane

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Barry Stewart
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Thane and all
In reply to OlyChamp, 9 months ago

I'll try loading a few files into my Mac laptop, with older software, (and certainly a different screen) and see what shows up there. I may even try my iPad.

I'll report back by tomorrow

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Dan
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Re: Moiré disaster on the E-5
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

Hi Barry - I took your suggestion and downloaded the original and opened up with Preview on a Mac.  At 100% I don't see anything that would be considered too bad and really need to squint if you know what I mean.

However, as I zoomed out at about 50% or so it popped out with a nasty wave on the guy's right hand side so I think it's just a what size you're looking at the photo...if you're sending him downsized images I can see where you might have some big issues...but I think any camera would have the same issue.

Anyhow, good luck...Dan

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Barry Stewart
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Dan, (and others) here's a photo of my screen
In reply to Dan, 9 months ago

Thanks for going the extra mile, Dan. See... I'm not crazy!

Tell me this guy's suit jacket isn't made of plywood!

I took this shot of my computer screen with my E-PL5, to show what I am seeing at times.

The wood jacket makes him stand up nice and straight, but he has to take it off to drive his car!

Results of my iPod test: I had to e-mail the file, as I couldn't read straight off my compact disk card (only have an SD card reader — and the iPad only seems to like freshly-shot photos... no copies. Stupid thing, but that's another story). It looks just fine at all sorts of sizes on the iPad, viewed from e-mail. I couldn't get it into iPhoto, as it wasn't from a freshly-shot camera card.

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Sergey_Green
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This can still occur in print
In reply to alatchin, 9 months ago

alatchin wrote:

Monitors Cause Moire, if you magnification and detail interfere with the monitor, Moise is created. Downressing can also cause moire... Sometimes when you want to send a lower res file to a client, you have to blur the original before you downres, otherwise you get moire.

This file is perfectly fine as far as i can see.

Or is this only a monitor thing?

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rovingtim
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As a known E5 file terrorist ...
In reply to Barry Stewart, 9 months ago

The moire you see at difference magnifications is the viewer, not the file. Moire like this can also be created by downsizing the file. It is not the fault of the E5.

However, there are colour distortions ... one of the most easily seen is just right of the lapel. You can see bands of colour running right to left that do not exist on other parts of the suit. Some of the worst magenta is near the pocket.

That is aliasing. A camera with a well engineered 'anti' would not have such colour distortions.

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erichK
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Re: As a known E5 file terrorist ...
In reply to rovingtim, 9 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

The moire you see at difference magnifications is the viewer, not the file. Moire like this can also be created by downsizing the file. It is not the fault of the E5.

However, there are colour distortions ... one of the most easily seen is just right of the lapel. You can see bands of colour running right to left that do not exist on other parts of the suit. Some of the worst magenta is near the pocket.

That is aliasing. A camera with a well engineered 'anti' would not have such colour distortions.

True.  And as a long time photographer, I do find the current trend toward weak anti-aliasing, and even models completely without them a little ironic.  After all, they were originally the way of dealing with this basic weakness of Bayer-type sensors.

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Great Bustard
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Ironically...
In reply to erichK, 9 months ago

erichK wrote:

rovingtim wrote:

The moire you see at difference magnifications is the viewer, not the file. Moire like this can also be created by downsizing the file. It is not the fault of the E5.

However, there are colour distortions ... one of the most easily seen is just right of the lapel. You can see bands of colour running right to left that do not exist on other parts of the suit. Some of the worst magenta is near the pocket.

That is aliasing. A camera with a well engineered 'anti' would not have such colour distortions.

True. And as a long time photographer, I do find the current trend toward weak anti-aliasing, and even models completely without them a little ironic. After all, they were originally the way of dealing with this basic weakness of Bayer-type sensors.

...the simple fix is more pixels. which so many fight against.  The more pixels the sensor has, the weaker the AA filter needs to be to avoid aliasing.

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