Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF

Started Jul 10, 2013 | Polls
cpkuntz
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Re: Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF
In reply to coudet, Jul 11, 2013

Here I up-scaled the 5D Mark III to the same resolution as the D800 using the normal bicubic algorithm. The Canon looks a bit more washed out in the sky, perhaps due to smaller DR?  Details are pretty similar overall, but if you look at 100% there are a lot of instances of cleaner details in the D800E, such as the grating pattern in the vent on top of the buildings to the left, and the leaves in the woods.  Overall, though, closer than I might have expected.

Here is the upscaled 5D Mark III

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3769/9258160269_174875089f_o_d.jpg

And here is the D800:

I prefer the Nikon greens and less contrasty look, but of course this is just an artifact of DXO Optics default settings.  They could be adjusted, but I chose to use default so that the comparison is as close as possible.

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Rick Knepper
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Re: Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF
In reply to coudet, Jul 12, 2013

coudet wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

Perhaps what Mr. Coudet meant was that by providing a downsized Nikon jpeg, he would not be able to manipulate the file as he sees fit and he didn't have time to download the RAW.

What I meant was that by downsizing you threw away information. You asked to compare D800 and 5D Mark III, but by downsizing you threw away the advantage of D800 and influenced the results of such a comparison. Not a useful comparison.

This is one of the hallmarks of misunderstanding digital imaging. Captured detail i.e. the finer detail that has been captured as a rersult of more pixels horizontally and more pixels vertically on a given surface doesn't disapear when you throw away information (at least not the amount represented by the downsizing here) because you are not throwing away all of the additional detail captured.

Of course, Mr. Coudet chose to passive/aggresively denigrate

No.

What I did was point out the problem, but chose not to elaborate on it because I (incorrectly) assumed that it should be obvious why you shouldn't downsize. That was my mistake. Your mistake was taking offense to my comment, where none was intended.

Hopefully, you did see that I provided the full-size image below and I look forward to your thoughts on the actual comparison.

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Rick Knepper
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Re: Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF
In reply to jjnik, Jul 12, 2013

jjnik wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

3.) Focusing anomalies:

3c.) Focusing with Live View in bright sunlight is much easier with the Canon because the LCD glass is treated with an effective coating and in comparison, Live View visibility on the D800E is slightly to significantly washed out depending on light levels but, since I used focus confirmation for the Nikon image, Live View visibility will not or should not affect the outcome.

Doesn't this mean you used a more accurate magnified Live View manual focus for the 5D3 and and the potentially less accurate PDAF for the Nikon? I would think that could potentially have a noticeable effect on the outcome as folks will likely be pixel peeping (I'm on my phone so can't really look at the images in a useful way). Seems like a questionable approach for a comparison like this as it adds an extra unknown wrt focus?

Dude please. Why don't you get on a computer and download the files before you start attacking the methodology.

You didn't read 3a carefully enough and I admit to an error in how I characterized things in 3c.

I focused the lens on the Nikon in LV but the LCD did not present a sharp, visible image due to the bright sunlight hitting on the LCD so I sneaked a peek in the VF for the focus confirm light. A blind man can focus a Zeiss lens, if it is calibrated or adapted correctly, by turning the focus ring all the way to infinity and let it be, no need for LV or the VF really.

3c is not about focusing as much as it is a somewhat poorly written report on the quality of the back LCD.

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Carsten Pauer 2
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Re: Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF
In reply to Rick Knepper, Jul 12, 2013

I "Prefer" the Photo from the D800E.

But never seen so much green/red CA in a Photo.
And the Noise on the Water is to high for me @ ISO 100...

Regards: Carsten

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Glenn Haley
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Re: Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF
In reply to Rick Knepper, Jul 12, 2013

Thanks for posting the D800 and 5DIII raw images. I have been looking for a good way to compare the two cameras. I was very close in getting a D800E until some of the problems surfaced and decided to wait for a while.

I processed both files through Capture One Pro 7. After removing the Chromatic Aberrations and peaking the contrast a bit I found that although the D800E did have a slightly sharper image, the difference between the two was less than what I was expecting. I have read that the D800’s Exmor sensor has greater dynamic range but that was not tested in this scene. The Zeiss lens performed very well with both cameras.

I guess I'll hang on to my 5DII a little longer.

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just Tony
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Close, but still...
In reply to Rick Knepper, Jul 13, 2013

You hear so many people talk about how you have to choose between higher resolution or lower noise. But the D800 won on both counts even without downsampling. You can also downsample to match and the noise gets suppressed even further. Bring up shadow detail on the dark windows at the left to demonstrate.

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Flashlight
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Diffraction?
In reply to Rick Knepper, Jul 13, 2013

As we know from the DPReview comparison between D800 and D800E a difference in rendered detail between them is only noticable until f/5.6, so making this comparison @ f/8 means you're left with a little less detail for the D800 then would be possible. Of course, if you need to shoot @ f/8 that's that but f/5.6 would have been sufficient for this image IMO.

I made my own comparison from the RAW files. Loaded them into ACR where I upscaled the 5D image to 6144 wide (maximum) and opened the D800 natively @ 7360. I used all standard settings except sharpening which I set to 0.

Then upscaled the 5D image to 7360 using Bicubic Smoother (best for enlargement) and applied the same amount of sharpening to both. Here's the result @ 200% for real pixel peeping:

To my eyes there's a significant difference in detail, especially for those that choose the D800E over the D800.

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Philip

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: Diffraction?
In reply to Flashlight, Jul 13, 2013

The DPR studio comparison is at f11, slightly into the diffraction zone on the D800/e, but there is still a noticeable increase in detail with the "e."

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Rick Knepper
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Re: Diffraction?
In reply to Flashlight, Jul 14, 2013

Flashlight wrote:

As we know from the DPReview comparison between D800 and D800E a difference in rendered detail between them is only noticable until f/5.6, so making this comparison @ f/8 means you're left with a little less detail for the D800 then would be possible. Of course, if you need to shoot @ f/8 that's that but f/5.6 would have been sufficient for this image IMO.

I agree with you here about f5.6 but the images looked a tad better in the corners at f8 and I was trying to anticipate and dispell as much criticism as possible while providing a workable file in all 3 zones. When I do these comparisons or I am just testing a single new lens, I shoot these images at every aperture from wide open to f22 because IQ does change. For the future, it would take little or no extra effort to upload additional images made with the most commonly used apertures.

Even with the 5D3, the transition from f5.6 to f8 is noticeable so it is not like the Canon file wasn't degrading too. Actually, I thought f4 looked the very best at center frame but at 100%, as mentioned above, f8 looked better across the 3 Zones.

I don't understand the up-rezzing methodology. I could have predicted this outcome sight unseen.

I made my own comparison from the RAW files. Loaded them into ACR where I upscaled the 5D image to 6144 wide (maximum) and opened the D800 natively @ 7360. I used all standard settings except sharpening which I set to 0.

Then upscaled the 5D image to 7360 using Bicubic Smoother (best for enlargement) and applied the same amount of sharpening to both. Here's the result @ 200% for real pixel peeping:

To my eyes there's a significant difference in detail, especially for those that choose the D800E over the D800.

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Philip

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Carsten Pauer 2
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Re: Diffraction?
In reply to Flashlight, Jul 14, 2013
Here's the result @ 200% for real pixel peeping:

Missing some Details in the right Photo, looks to bright for me.
Should be look a bit more like this:

Regards: Carsten

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Rick Knepper
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Re: Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF
In reply to Zlik, Jul 14, 2013

Zlik wrote:

For some reason, the whole comparison ended up in the signature. Here it is :

Compared at two different senarios: A) big print (60MP export to magnify the differences, if any), B) moderate resolution (16MP):

A)

  1. Imported both raw files in lightroom
  2. No sharpening
  3. No noise reduction
  4. Exported to 60 MP with output sharpening set to low
  5. Opened both in photoshop, applied 0.7, 65% unsharp mask, cropped same portion:

B)

  1. Imported both raw files in lightroom
  2. Low sharpening (amount 50, radius 0.6, detail 25, masking 6)
  3. Low noise reduction (luminance 6, rest default)
  4. Exported to 16 MP with output sharpening set to low
  5. Opened both in photoshop, applied 0.4, 60% unsharp mask, cropped same portion. View:

Conclusion: there is a visible clear difference, even at 16MP. The detail from the D800E is finer.

It is understandable (to a degree) why some believe that comparing up-rezzed images is the only way to compare unequal images - they print big either sometimes or a lot. But 95% of all applications (percentage unscientifically derived by me) involve down-rezzing so it is important to compare the effect of throwing away pixels too. Dare I say it? Much of that 95% involves smaller pixel counts than 16 MP it would seem.  What does 16 MP equate to in terms of dimensions and DPI (no! I do not understand DPI ).

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TTMartin
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Re: Poll: D800E vs. 5D mk III w/ Zeiss 2/35mm ZF
In reply to Rick Knepper, Jul 15, 2013

As a Canon user, I normally don't post in the Nikon forums, and I apologize for the intrusion.

I'd like to thank Rick for providing the RAW for this comparison, and I though I'd post my results processing the 5D Mk III in Canon's DPP.

I processed the CR2 file, a little to my taste, and a little influenced by the look of the D800. I then output the file uprezing it to match the resolution of the D800, using DPP when it was converted to the JPG.

I will say my personal taste is not to oversharpen photos, which seems to be popular over on the Canon forums.

The dynamic range of the scene fell well withing the capabilites of both cameras. I did bring up the shadows slightly, and bring the highlights down slightly, which reduced the overall contrast of the photo.

Here's my result.

Again, I apologize for the intrusion.

I now return you, to your regularly scheduled Nikon programming.

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LMCasey
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After playing, Nikon definitely has more information in the file
In reply to Rick Knepper, Jul 15, 2013

I don't think you can come to any other conclusion other than that the Nikon file does indeed contain more information. This is especially evident when playing both files scaled to 7360 long side. So, nothing really surprising here. You would probably only notice this in large prints though. Even up to 16x24, I don't know whether you would see a real difference in a print.

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