Next NEX $4000.00

Started Jul 9, 2013 | Discussions
Just Having Fun
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Re: SAR
In reply to ET2, Jul 9, 2013

ET2 wrote:

cosmonaut wrote:

http://www.cameraegg.org/sony-full-frame-nex-camera-to-be-announced-within-2-months/

That's what it says. Wow.

The guy copied the rumor from SAR, even though SAR only said higher than $3,000. Looks like someone made up $4,0000

It has to do RAW and 4K video to justify 4K price

You can get a Canon 50D and shoot RAW video for $500. 4k is just around the corner too. Magic Lantern just killed the high-end video market...along with BlackMagic.

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/06/canon-50d-magic-lantern-raw-video-1080p/

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Mel Snyder
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00? 1) it's a rumor, and 2) if true, not surprising
In reply to cosmonaut, Jul 9, 2013

Although it's only a rumor, it's credible - and we should have seen this coming.

While there were those who fantasized something like 2X an NEX-6 in price, and simply a bit bigger, I noted in another thread the optical and economic reality when you increase image size, whether film or digital, everything gets darn big.

Scale a 24 x 36mm "sensor" to a 60 x 70mm - and everything gets bigger - and as the market gets vastly smaller, cost explodes even more than size.

You didn't notice the size increase when Nikon and Canon went FF digital because their APS-C cameras have always been sized to take their 35mm film-body lenses. And while the price of their FF DSLRs did go up substantially to cover the new sensor and electronics costs, the body itself didn't change much. Scaling a NEX to full-frame will demand start-from-scratch design - and without millions of Sony-mount FF lenses out there, the most successful route for them would be to license the Canon or Nikon mount, and focus on making a body full of Sony tech that affluent people want. If it doesn't have a built-in EVF, management is delusional.

Two points need to be remembered:

  • The simple fact is, APS-C sensors have gotten more than good enough - and the demand for FF isn't strong enough for a bit player like Sony to low-ball and gamble on volume. No matter what they price it at, they're unlikely to sell a boatload. Few of us - even pros - produce images that vastly outstrip a well-operated APS-C sensor. We post them on line, view them on iPads, and rarely make prints larger than 16x24 - most, a lot smaller.
  • What NEX-5n and NEX-6 and NEX-7 owners might want or be willing to spend for a FF will mean nothing to Sony. More likely they might hope that a $4000 NEX-9 might encourage more people to buy an NEX-6 or NEX-5n - much like a $30,000 Audi A4 makes those who want a $100,000 A8 feel better, even if the A4 can't outperform a VW Jetta.

A FF NEX solves no issue for me. No current NEX lenses will cover FF, except for legacy glass. I bought an NEX-6 to be a fun, portable camera that didn't cost more than an extra body for my Nikon DSLR. If I want a FF camera just to have one - and I do - I'll buy a Nikon D600 and tap all my manual and AF lenses, rather than start from scratch investing in a system that could be dead - along with the whole camera business - if lead investor Dan Loeb has his way, and the company reorganizes around entertainment and TV - period.

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Philnw2
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"Native e-mount..."
In reply to ET2, Jul 9, 2013

I wouldn't worry about the price...thats just a negotiating tactic.  It'll sell for some compromise between what the company needs and what the market will pay.

Whats far more interesting is the "e-mount" label on the mount and in the text.  By using e-mount, i think that means this FF can mount any other full frame lenses out there, with suitable ebay style adapters.  Leica can't do that - as far as i know.

I have to admire the audacity of Sony - wow.

I have one friend with an A99 and he likes it very much.

On the other hand - this is an announcement of an estimated announcement that is coming from SAR  

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nzmacro
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If I beleived in rumors
In reply to cosmonaut, Jul 9, 2013

I would be betting on horse racing and making a fortune or making plenty of money in the stock market.

All the best and I would love to see a FF NEX. What colour is it again if you hold your breath for too long ..... aww yeah blue.

Danny.

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Richard Ettinger
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to cosmonaut, Jul 9, 2013

cosmonaut wrote:

http://www.cameraegg.org/sony-full-frame-nex-camera-to-be-announced-within-2-months/

That's what it says. Wow.

If the price increase to FF is that great, Sony, don't call it a NEX.

I'm very happy with my NEX 7. But if the next camera more than triples in price, then I'll be investing in Speed Boosters.

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stick25
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to cosmonaut, Jul 9, 2013

That site also say it will be an A mount. Do they have a choice to cover the FF? So will that mean in-camera image stabilization?

If it is possible to cover a FF with an E mount and how many lenses could they come out with at the announcement? Not enough lenses, is still a talking point for E mount (APS-C). What would be the response of a couple of lenses for a $4000 camera?

Not that I need anything more than my NEX7, but for that kind of money I would rather spend $1000 less and get a D800.

Maybe the NEX 9 will have a new FF sensor, (Sigma Foveon comparable). Then $4000 would be a bargain compared to the $6000 Sigma SD1. Oh wait, what’s it priced now?

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cosmonaut
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to spacemn, Jul 9, 2013

spacemn wrote:

cosmonaut wrote:

http://www.cameraegg.org/sony-full-frame-nex-camera-to-be-announced-within-2-months/

That's what it says. Wow.

As good as any guess - I guess.

I don't think a FF NEX will be more expensive than a RX1R or A99. On the contrary, I think it will be cheaper unless they have filled it with some off the chart technology, but then again, what will they then do with the top of the line coming gen. FF A-mount cameras.

I hope you are right. Despite what anyone says Sony sells must be good. To me its almost like Canon and Nikon are stuck in a time warp in comparison. Other than improving image quality they really haven't set the woods on fire with new innovations.

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nzmacro
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LOL, good point
In reply to stick25, Jul 9, 2013

stick25 wrote:

Maybe the NEX 9 will have a new FF sensor, (Sigma Foveon comparable). Then $4000 would be a bargain compared to the $6000 Sigma SD1. Oh wait, what’s it priced now?

LOL, there's the answer right there Marketing someone needs to be in prison for Surely Sony wouldn't get sucked into going down the same road. Hmmm, maybe.

Could always call it a Hassle-Sony

Danny.

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docvale
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to stick25, Jul 9, 2013

As I mentioned in a previous post, making a Nex (thus, a rangefinder-styled camera, born to provide compactness + interchangeable lenses) with a FF sensor is having the ambition to compete with Leica.

If they'll do it through the A-mount platform (thus large and heavy dSLR lenses) it will just be a non sense. Better not to invest on it...

stick25 wrote:

That site also say it will be an A mount. Do they have a choice to cover the FF? So will that mean in-camera image stabilization?

If it is possible to cover a FF with an E mount and how many lenses could they come out with at the announcement? Not enough lenses, is still a talking point for E mount (APS-C). What would be the response of a couple of lenses for a $4000 camera?

Not that I need anything more than my NEX7, but for that kind of money I would rather spend $1000 less and get a D800.

Maybe the NEX 9 will have a new FF sensor, (Sigma Foveon comparable). Then $4000 would be a bargain compared to the $6000 Sigma SD1. Oh wait, what’s it priced now?

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Jerry R
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I don' have to worry about the lenses. After spending $4,000 for a camera
In reply to docvale, Jul 9, 2013

I don' have to worry about the lenses. After my wife finds out I spent $4,000 for a camera I would not live long enough to use the lenses.

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RudivanS
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to cosmonaut, Jul 9, 2013

If it takes my ultra wide Nikon 14-24mm lens (via adaptor) - I am interested.

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tko
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so, about those primative dSLRs
In reply to cosmonaut, Jul 10, 2013

I guess removing that primitive mirror box thingy really lowers the cost.

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Jefftan
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to ResearchKen, Jul 10, 2013

If RX1R is 28mm I would buy it. 35mm useless for landscape

bad FL choice for Sony

Nikon and Ricoh got it right, for fixed FL the best is 28mm.

My wish is Nikon would make a 28mm full frame compact or Sony next year but I am dreaming

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Ralf J.
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to Jefftan, Jul 10, 2013

Meh .... I will stick my guns with the fantastic NEX-6.

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onlooker
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In reply to cosmonaut, Jul 10, 2013

So, is Sony going to introduce yet another mount and lens series, instead of improving E-mount?

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parallaxproblem
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Re: Typical Sony
In reply to docvale, Jul 10, 2013

docvale wrote:

Since this is a rumor, it has to be accepted cum grano salis.

$4000 is a lot of money, but, as someone else's already posted, it's a tad more than half the price of the only other FF mirrorless around. No surprise if the hypothetical FF Nex were more expensive than a D600 or a 6D...

I disagree and think the price mentioned is a surprise, and unjustified

The D600 etc include precision reflex mechanisms which are difficult and expensive to produce and m1anufacture.  One of the reasons for producing mirrorless cameras was that they could be simpler and cheaper to produce as they don't need all the legacy mechanics which DSLRs inherited from the previous century's film-based devices

I would be very surprised if the FF Nex will be anything more than a metal box containing a FF sensor and a refined version of technology which has already been developed for other cameras in the NEX series (inluding the VG900).  The sensor itself will be expensive but the rest... $20 component cost?

the target of such a product would be to compete with Leica, thus it should come with relatively compact primes (spanning between 15 and 90mm) rather than long range zooms.

Leica is a company that simply sticks their name on a Panasonic compact camera and then immediately ups the price by several hundred dollars - and still gets people buying it!

Nobody can 'compete' with that.  Likewise basing prices on those that Leica charge is not realistic other than recognising that you need to be 'much cheaper'

We cannot exclude that the final cost of the product might also be affected by the investment in designing lenses that cannot just be the current A-mount ones.

Those costs are normally recovered over the life of the system, not on the first model, otherwise every new system launch model would be impossibly expensive!

Anyway, who say's this camera (if it is not just a rumour) is going to have any matching lenses - the VG900 doesn't and owners are expected to buy an Alpha adaptor and lenses from that system!  Sony hasn't been particularly enthusiastic about supporting the NEX line with lenses since the system was launched so it would be a (welcome) surprise if they changed this attitude for any new FF model...

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Section10
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Price of FF mirrorless
In reply to parallaxproblem, Jul 10, 2013

No, the price of a FF mirrorless is not 'just over half' the only other one. You're referring to Leica which is wildly known for being overpriced and you're forgetting RX1 which is mirrorless and FF for $2800.

In theory, If you take an RX1 ($2800) and take away the lens (-$1000) add an EVF (+$400) you're left with a $2200 body. If they make it even better with stabilization etc..it will add to the cost. Why a FF would NECESSARILY be $4000 is out of theory, most FF bodies start at $2800+- actually...mirrorless can justifiably be more for the "new technology" part....so I'd guess around $3200.

But at $4000 for a small size FF, the RX1 will reign. I'd rather pay for an RX1 with a perfect lens than $1200 and no lens at all.

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stick25
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Re: Next NEX $4000.00
In reply to docvale, Jul 10, 2013

NEX maybe were born to provide compactness. But NEX is also following the path of all electronics, everything gets smaller. I don't believe it will be long before you see a Micro-SD slot in a NEX. FF cameras will follow the same path as all electronics. There are limitations on how small a lens can be and still provide IQ in relation to the size of the sensor. Larger lenses are necessary to put enough light on a FF sensor. So as long as there larger sensor, even as the camera gets smaller around them, you will still need the same size lens. Larger lenses are also necessary if you want to increase your reach. NEX is the only camera system I own and I don't have any problem putting a large lens on it to get the shot I want(I wish Sony would hurry up and come out with their E mount lens-mapped xx-300mm lens). Eventually as IQ and pixel density increases on all sized sensors there will diminishing returns on larger sensor and the larger formats will fade away and with them large lenses. It is inevitably, all electronics get smaller. The question of investing in FF lenses is how long will the fade take and I would guess you have to add in, how long will adapters stave off the death of the FF lens. IMO the top APS-C sensor are already starting to make FF unnecessary.

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docvale
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Re: Price of FF mirrorless
In reply to Section10, Jul 10, 2013

Nobody here said $4k would be justified. I said that, even being lots of money (and probably pure speculation, since it's a rumors and past rumors always spoke about ~$3k...) it's way less than the only competition. Honestly I wouldn't care since I could not afford it even if at $2k... 

I don't think the cost of the RX1 can be used as an actual reference though... The lens has been conceived around the sensor (or the other way around... whatever) and the conversion to IC would tremendously affect the project, making it a new project from scratches.

Section10 wrote:

No, the price of a FF mirrorless is not 'just over half' the only other one. You're referring to Leica which is wildly known for being overpriced and you're forgetting RX1 which is mirrorless and FF for $2800.

In theory, If you take an RX1 ($2800) and take away the lens (-$1000) add an EVF (+$400) you're left with a $2200 body. If they make it even better with stabilization etc..it will add to the cost. Why a FF would NECESSARILY be $4000 is out of theory, most FF bodies start at $2800+- actually...mirrorless can justifiably be more for the "new technology" part....so I'd guess around $3200.

But at $4000 for a small size FF, the RX1 will reign. I'd rather pay for an RX1 with a perfect lens than $1200 and no lens at all.

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docvale
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Re: Typical Sony
In reply to parallaxproblem, Jul 10, 2013

parallaxproblem wrote:

docvale wrote:

Since this is a rumor, it has to be accepted cum grano salis.

$4000 is a lot of money, but, as someone else's already posted, it's a tad more than half the price of the only other FF mirrorless around. No surprise if the hypothetical FF Nex were more expensive than a D600 or a 6D...

I disagree and think the price mentioned is a surprise, and unjustified

I agree it is unjustified from the "buyer perspective". I wouldn't be surprised if they proposed an insane price, though.

The D600 etc include precision reflex mechanisms which are difficult and expensive to produce and m1anufacture. One of the reasons for producing mirrorless cameras was that they could be simpler and cheaper to produce as they don't need all the legacy mechanics which DSLRs inherited from the previous century's film-based devices

I would be very surprised if the FF Nex will be anything more than a metal box containing a FF sensor and a refined version of technology which has already been developed for other cameras in the NEX series (inluding the VG900). The sensor itself will be expensive but the rest... $20 component cost?

Theoretically a new flagship should be released after new R&D investment. Those numbers cannot be a reference.

the target of such a product would be to compete with Leica, thus it should come with relatively compact primes (spanning between 15 and 90mm) rather than long range zooms.

Leica is a company that simply sticks their name on a Panasonic compact camera and then immediately ups the price by several hundred dollars - and still gets people buying it!

Nobody can 'compete' with that. Likewise basing prices on those that Leica charge is not realistic other than recognising that you need to be 'much cheaper'

The Leica M is NOT a rebranded Lumix. It's overpriced, terribly, but for many photographers that camera and those lenses are the best out there.

Some owners of legacy Leica lenses that today cannot afford a Leica M would like a FF Nex, maybe (probably) not at $4k, but for ~$3k (which is the most rumored price, if we wanted to take the rumor for reliable).

We cannot exclude that the final cost of the product might also be affected by the investment in designing lenses that cannot just be the current A-mount ones.

Those costs are normally recovered over the life of the system, not on the first model, otherwise every new system launch model would be impossibly expensive!

You are right, whether we are speaking of mass sales...

Anyway, who say's this camera (if it is not just a rumour) is going to have any matching lenses - the VG900 doesn't and owners are expected to buy an Alpha adaptor and lenses from that system! Sony hasn't been particularly enthusiastic about supporting the NEX line with lenses since the system was launched so it would be a (welcome) surprise if they changed this attitude for any new FF model...

If the FF Nex (if it'll exist, sometimes) needed an adaptor to get A-mount lenses or nothing, would be a loser.

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