Crystal Ball Required... Locked

Started Jul 9, 2013 | Discussions
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King Redshirt
New MemberPosts: 10
Crystal Ball Required...
Jul 9, 2013

Greetings all!

It my first time posting on this forum, whihch i have found very usefull so far.

I would like to get into photography, perhaps as a side business one day... Always loved it.

I have decided to go full frame DSLR, as in other hobby interests have taught me working your way up is more expensive, just go big.

I absolutley hate to ask you this becuase I know after reading hundreds of posts since last Nov, but I really would like some help choosing between Canon and Nikon.

Looked into sony, and even bought a NEX3N, hardly a pro camera but it took some great photos in Italy, low light performance with no flash could not rival my camera phone. Just by looking at Sony's Alpha line and seeing the photos and hearing how the a99 mated to the Ziess 24-70 can exibit some "rocking" between the two cut that option off to me.

Looking forward to seeing thier 2014 line of FF Mirrorless options... they should serve to push canikon in a new direction.

SO I have been looking at the D800 and 5dMark3... The truth is i dont think either one of them is where they need to be right now, in my amatuer non experianced opinion..lol

Heres what I found after a good portion of the years web searchs

5dmark3

22 Mp.. kinda low i suspect for todays markets, i mean all of nikons 24Mp consumer models can create a larger image? booo

Great low light video, Great processor, high MB recording rate for video, No 4k ....so its like going gaga over a VHS recorder.(Enter flame remark here..lol)

11.7 EV... My killer for this cam, reason # 1 why there is even a debate between this and the D800... I do expect much better dynamic range, I want to be able to pull up the shadows and highlights on request, or not need to at all. My NEX3N had 12..

The sensor itself does not seem to be much better than the Mark2, which could have been a great option if the autofocus system was better.

5dMark3 auto focus.... Sounds Fantastic, no complaints well done!

Digic5+ processor...sounds great, no complaints I think it can record video at 90mbs per sec

Build quality...great

Menus and dials...easy to use

Lenses... a little more expensive than nikon, but what ever.. your gonna go broke buying lenses anyway

no flash....well...odd to me...it would be nice to have that option to trigger other flashes and just have something when i envitably forget mine somewhere.

USB 2.0 booo

Overall a good all rounder...

D800

36mp...sweet... Alot of complaints and virtual crying about the size of files.. thats a computer problem, ...storage is cheap... I mean there must have been big tears about going from 8mp to 16mp that was probably the end of the world too.... I certainly wont blame the camera for that

4fps- to slow... and the buffer cant even keep that up for long... and the complaints are endless online .. an all rounder should be 5fps or more .

The Expeed 3 chip should be twinned and should allow for more transfer rates. Doesnt the 1dx do somthing like that ?

The 1.2 crop at 20mp and increased frame rate with grip is kind of the saving grace for the d800 for me anyway.

usb 3.0 good for you!

From complaints i hear about the 36 mp worth listening to are the ones about not getting a good focused shot as such reolution shows alot more flaws.

From what i've seen online the videos are not as good at night.. as the 5D3.. but it has a few cool features to play with...no 4 k..... still a toy...(enter flame remarks here..lol)

Build quality is great aswell and it had a focusing issue thats since been solved

D600

Cant buy it because I dont primarily take photos of dust and oil, I have not been satified they have fixed this issue... if they did I may enter the scene with this camera. I spoke to nikon Canada and they said there is no issue with that.... Kept a striaght face too, i am proud of them..

SO Ideally I need a 5Dmark3 with the sonikon 36 xtrans mp chip inside... wow what a camera that would have been....drool!

SO what it comes down to is the crystal ball.... Will Canon make a camera with class leading or at least class avearge chip..because all numbers point otherwise, and insert flaming remark about not being all about numbers here...as you can tell i've been reading these forums..lol)

Or Will nikon step up thier FPS, and processing power on thier next beast.

I would love to know the future because lenses are expensive and i want to start purchasing.

Has anyone found the 5D3 to be that much of a diffierence in Dynamic Range? Ususally in comparos you can see better into the shadows with the d800. But I ask because I tested the Nikon 1 against the NEX3n and the NEX on paper showed a better ev of 12 but the 11 ev of the nikon destroyed the Sony... If I still have those pics id love to show you..

Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EOS-1D Nikon D600 Nikon D800 Sony Alpha NEX-3N Sony SLT-A99
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saralecaire
Regular MemberPosts: 371
Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 9, 2013

Are you sure you love photography? Sounds like you're more in love with tech specs...

If there were a particular camera which is superior in every way, the other manufacturer wouldn't be selling anything. If you consider photography as actually going out and using the camera as a tool. you might find the one you like in use may not be the one you like on paper.

Best bet for you would be find a camera rental store, rent those cameras you're considering and spend a day or two shooting with them and see which you're happy with (both in terms of handling and resulting photos). I'm sure it will be more useful to you.

NancyP
Senior MemberPosts: 4,190Gear list
Three Words: SKILLS, BUSINESS PLAN
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 9, 2013

I hate to rain on your parade, but it isn't easy making a living out of photography. You need skills, a business plan, a marketing plan, preferably a specialty not covered locally, and an ability to cultivate contacts - not to mention, a personality that thrives on customer service and cold calls.

Go read the pro photographers forum on "why do photographers go out of business" and "why do newbies think that they can make money". Go buy the "Photographers' Market 2013" by Bostic and/or "Best Business Practices for Photographers" by Harrington.

Imagine that you need to take out a bank loan to buy the equipment, and need to justify yourself to the loan manager - it takes a reasonably achievable  business plan.

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NancyP

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DtEW
Senior MemberPosts: 1,878Gear list
Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to saralecaire, Jul 9, 2013

saralecaire wrote:

Are you sure you love photography? Sounds like you're more in love with tech specs...

Seriously.

Well, actually...

An actual photogeek gets his body for the given lens/accessory system he has decided on.  Bodies are the cheapest part of the equation, and they come-and-go within every 2-4 years and are therefore almost disposable.

OP, why don't you figure out what lenses you want and might be able to afford?

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rrccad
Senior MemberPosts: 3,507Gear list
Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 9, 2013

King Redshirt wrote:

Greetings all!

It my first time posting on this forum, whihch i have found very usefull so far.

I would like to get into photography, perhaps as a side business one day... Always loved it.

well to be honest you're immediately starting ass backwards.  look at the system, how easily you can get repairs, equipment, accessories in your area.  check out the local used market - what seems to have more available (also means a more healthy - buy-use-sell market to reduce use-cost of equipment).

camera bodies get replaced every 2-3 years .. replacing a system is much more involved and more difficult.

having a sour or a non existent used market (from both a buy / sell) can cost you thousands of extra dollars over time.

then after that, focus on the lenses then the camera in which you believe matches what you want to shoot.  start small and build your kit incrementally.

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King Redshirt
New MemberPosts: 10
Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to rrccad, Jul 9, 2013

I totally agree,

It will only be a hobby business, I work in the Civil Engineering Feild.

I live within minutes of Nikon Canada

The whole point of my discussion was to try and flush out if any rumors are floating around about the next Canon or Nikon models..

Not particularly in love with either choice right now... so i'd like to invest in the company that will serve me better in the future..

I was thinking of grabbing a 24-70 to start.. then maybe a 14-24...

Any body know what direction these companies will take thier full frame models?

photosen
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,160Gear list
Reality check...
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 9, 2013

Cameras that look good on paper don't take good pictures... You do. More megapixels does not mean better photos... A cheaper older camera with decent lenses and good technique will always let you get a better shot than the latest camera with so so lenses and no technique...

Photographers are being laid off right left and center... Sort of a bad moment to get into it...

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King Redshirt
New MemberPosts: 10
Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to saralecaire, Jul 9, 2013

saralecaire wrote:

Are you sure you love photography? Sounds like you're more in love with tech specs...

Hmmmmmm...... It is hard not to get caught up in the specs..... especially when you have to invest so much to get the camera..

But ya ... I need to shoot more talk less ... agreed.

NancyP
Senior MemberPosts: 4,190Gear list
Second reality check.
In reply to photosen, Jul 9, 2013

Do civil engineers need to document their projects? Use your existing knowledge to add value to whatever photo skills you acquire.

Before you buy a body, you need to decide what you want to photograph.

Your choice of camera may depend on your planned use, particularly if that use involves specialized techniques or accessories/lenses. Architectural photography? Go with Canon, their tilt-shift lens lineup is much better than Nikon's. Affordable bird photography? Canon, at the moment, because there are two good choices of OEM fast-autofocusing lenses under $2,000.00, and a good high-frame-rate, big-buffer action camera being discounted (the 7D). Macro, up to 1:1? Any system will do, there are excellent third-party as well as OEM lenses available.

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NancyP

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Jason Rickerby
Contributing MemberPosts: 712
Not sure about the accuracy of your assessments...
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 10, 2013

King Redshirt wrote:

5dmark3

22 Mp.. kinda low i suspect for todays markets, i mean all of nikons 24Mp consumer models can create a larger image? booo

Practically there's a difference?

Great low light video, Great processor, high MB recording rate for video, No 4k ....so its like going gaga over a VHS recorder.(Enter flame remark here..lol)

Yeah, because 4K is something we all need right now. There are how many models of 4k displays available?

11.7 EV... My killer for this cam, reason # 1 why there is even a debate between this and the D800... I do expect much better dynamic range, I want to be able to pull up the shadows and highlights on request, or not need to at all. My NEX3N had 12..

Er, what?

Sony RAW DR: http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/sony-nex-3n-1131916/review/4

Canon RAW DR: http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/canon-5d-mark-iii-1074186/review/6#articleContent

The sensor itself does not seem to be much better than the Mark2, which could have been a great option if the autofocus system was better.

5dMark3 auto focus.... Sounds Fantastic, no complaints well done!

Digic5+ processor...sounds great, no complaints I think it can record video at 90mbs per sec

Too bad the SD slot isn't UHS...

Build quality...great

Menus and dials...easy to use

Lenses... a little more expensive than nikon, but what ever.. your gonna go broke buying lenses anyway

This is debatable, but it probably works out the same in the end.

no flash....well...odd to me...it would be nice to have that option to trigger other flashes and just have something when i envitably forget mine somewhere.

USB 2.0 booo

With uncompressed HDMI output available, not sure how much of an issue this is.

Overall a good all rounder...

jouni123
Regular MemberPosts: 443Gear list
I miss your judge for 6D
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 10, 2013

That was interesting visions of markets best cameras, I miss what you say about Canon 6D. To comment D600 and not say a word of 6D is not fair : )  jouni

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King Redshirt
New MemberPosts: 10
Re: I miss your judge for 6D
In reply to jouni123, Jul 10, 2013

I think the 6d had the older  autofocus.. I'm pretty sure thats why i kicked that one to the curb in the begining.

That one sounded promising though... I put Auto focus near the  top of my list

Canon came out with that awsome new dual phase fancy words  focus system that should bleed nicely down into thier other cameras...

However the very top of my list is Dynamic Range.

That comment about who needs 4K? Well they already sell the panels.... I hold my ground on that one, no 4k , not a point that i would buy one of these cameras for.. Doesnt the 300 dollar go pro have 4k now?

I'm focusing on the photos... I am leaning d800 right now with the ability to shoot at 1.2 crop at 5fps...

But for some reason  I feel if Canon made the same camera (d800) it would perform much better .. thats my hesitation there.. In the end i want to buy the right companies lenses.. Tilt shift is cool I cant see my budget allowing for that anytime soon though..

.

DSHAPK
Contributing MemberPosts: 781Gear list
Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 10, 2013

King Redshirt wrote:

saralecaire wrote:

Are you sure you love photography? Sounds like you're more in love with tech specs...

Hmmmmmm...... It is hard not to get caught up in the specs..... especially when you have to invest so much to get the camera..

But ya ... I need to shoot more talk less ... agreed.

Its actually easy not to get caught in specs. Pick your body and lenses and off you go. If you can afford the d800 and lenses I'm sure you will be very happy with Nikon. If you loom at what your requirements are, you may find a different body, lens or manufacturer may suit you better.

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JackM
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In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 10, 2013

No actually I'm serious.  But you won't do that, so I'll just say that you can't go wrong with any current Canon or Nikon.  If you're going to be shooting more sports and action I'd say 5D3.  If more landscape, then D800.  If you get off on pixel peeping or underexposing then pushing 3 stops, D800.  Both cameras do everything excellently, I just wouldn't want to deal with 36mp or goofy crop modes.

22mp cannot be called "kinda low" on resolution by any stretch of the imagination.  I've made pleasing 20x30" prints from 8mp, and sharp 8x10"s from 3.2mp.  There is no difference between 22mp and 24mp.  Well actually there is, 22 full frame megapixels will look better than 24 APS-C megapixels.  36mp is only 28% more resolution than 22mp.

Really what you should do is spend a solid hour in a store handling and shooting both cameras.  See which one feels better in your hands, and which one you can figure out how to operate better without opening the manual, and buy THAT camera.  I find Canons very intuitive and Nikons utterly confounding.  Many people feel the exact opposite.

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JackM
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Re: I miss your judge for 6D
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 10, 2013

King Redshirt wrote:

However the very top of my list is Dynamic Range.

Then you should probably get the D800 so you can read DxO charts and pixel peep and post your findings on forums and feel smug about all of that.

5D3 has plenty of DR, but these samples mean nothing to a pixel peeper:

as-shot:

fixed:

as shot:

fixed:

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sean lancaster
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,565Gear list
Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 10, 2013

King Redshirt wrote:

Greetings all!

It my first time posting on this forum, whihch i have found very usefull so far.

I would like to get into photography, perhaps as a side business one day... Always loved it.

I have decided to go full frame DSLR, as in other hobby interests have taught me working your way up is more expensive, just go big.

I absolutley hate to ask you this becuase I know after reading hundreds of posts since last Nov, but I really would like some help choosing between Canon and Nikon.

Looked into sony, and even bought a NEX3N, hardly a pro camera but it took some great photos in Italy, low light performance with no flash could not rival my camera phone.

The NEX 3N is easily . . . I mean extremely easy to blow away any camera phone on Earth at low light performance. If you believe the statement you wrote then you're wasting your money going with a more expensive camera. I recommend sticking with the 3N and learning how to shoot photography first. Many people find the APS-C sensor (1 step below full frame) all they ever need.

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gipper51
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,091Gear list
Re: I miss your judge for 6D
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 11, 2013

I'm doing a similar situation as to what you are looking toward...I have a full time career in architecture, but also do architectural photography part time.  So I'll throw my $0.02 in.

First, either camera is MORE than sufficient to cover needs of any paying client you'll likely get.  I have NEVER had a client question what camera I use or how many megapixels it has.  As long as I deliver quality images they are happy, and I feel I do that.  I've been selling architectural images since my best camera was 12mp APS-C (basically a D300 sensor).  Today I use a 21mp 5D2 with a 13mp 5D as my backup body.  If the 5D2 broke, I would have no reservations finishing a shoot with the "only" 13mp 5D.

Clients that will turn their nose up at a 5D image will be requesting medium format digital before you even sign the contract, so don't worry about 22 vs. 36 or whatever number you think you need, it will be more than enough.  What you think you need vs. what you actually need to sell images are two very different things.  Reading camera forums will make you think you need the latest and greatest to sell a post card.

Basing your choice of system on a single body is the wrong approach IMO.  Bodies come and go like farts in the wind, base it on lenses and flashes and which system you feel will suit your long term needs better.  If the lenses you want are a wash between the two, then MAYBE base it on a body.  Keep in mind that Canon can mount any Nikkor lens (without AF) via adapter, but you can't mount a Canon lens on a Nikon.

Don't be afraid of looking at used equipment either.  You can score tremendous deals on last gen bodies for a fraction of new prices.  Bodies like the 5D2 sell for $1300-1500, and a 10fps 1D3 even less.  Both are cameras pros still use in huge numbers.

Lastly, if you take one piece of advice from my post it's this:  If you are doing this for money you absolutely need a backup body.  Not finishing a shoot due to equipment failure is terrible for your pocket book, reputation and repeat business.  I've had my Canon bodies fail on shoots and my Sony Alphas fail before I shot Canon.  Each time I reached for the backup and finished the gig, with a happy customer.  Backup, backup, backup...failure or accidents will occur at the worst time.  Murphy's law is a SOB that way.

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King Redshirt
New MemberPosts: 10
Re: I miss your judge for 6D
In reply to gipper51, Jul 11, 2013

I agree, again,

I do appreciate all the comments, I have learned through my NEX3n that 16 mp shot in raw does give you a nice large photo, so 22mp would certainly be enough.

That doesnt discount the fact that the d800 can shoot at 20 and have 36 on tap....

And for that NEX having great low light.... just no... if you use that mode that takes  like 5-6 jpegs and stiches them together then yes... it will beat my camera phone.. if you leave it in raw.. then no its not as imressive.. yes you can leave the shutter open on a tripod and controll it manually..... but all things being equal on automatic.. camera phone wins.. the raw's looked so noisy and bandy.

If I found canon to be the better fit for me, ( which most people say is more intuitive) and all of the reasearch says its a better performer....I would buy that

Any way.. actually listening to your advice... looking at lenses and flash systems... which has proven to be superior or more freindly to use?

I would love to spend some time with each system but i dont know how or where to do it..

sean lancaster
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,565Gear list
Re: I miss your judge for 6D
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 11, 2013

King Redshirt wrote:

And for that NEX having great low light.... just no... if you use that mode that takes like 5-6 jpegs and stiches them together then yes... it will beat my camera phone.. if you leave it in raw.. then no its not as imressive.. yes you can leave the shutter open on a tripod and controll it manually..... but all things being equal on automatic.. camera phone wins.. the raw's looked so noisy and bandy.

Who made the claim that the 3N has great low light performance? And what camera phone are you using to shoot raw (never mind that anyone shooting raw is doing it wrong if they don't post process)? I think perhaps I am the only one to even address this and I merely claimed that it's far better than any camera phone. I'd also make the same claim about any point and shoot with the a 1/3" - 2/3" sensor against the 3N. For that matter, the smaller sensor of the Sony RX100 cannot even be challenged by any camera phone. I suggest a little primer on how sensors impact photography. View the charts and note the sensor sizes. I don't mean to suggest the NEX 3N is optimal at all. In fact, I have an NEX 5N but it's my backup camera as I wanted better low light performance and selected a full frame camera myself (Canon 6D), which is what I now shoot. But I certainly go for the 5N well before my camera phone (and it's a Galaxy Nexus less than a year old) because there's just no comparison if I have both cameras in my possession.

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qianp2k
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Re: Crystal Ball Required...
In reply to King Redshirt, Jul 11, 2013

King Redshirt wrote:

Has anyone found the 5D3 to be that much of a diffierence in Dynamic Range? Ususally in comparos you can see better into the shadows with the d800. But I ask because I tested the Nikon 1 against the NEX3n and the NEX on paper showed a better ev of 12 but the 11 ev of the nikon destroyed the Sony... If I still have those pics id love to show you..

Depends on how you shoot the photos.  If you shoot lots of highly contrast scenes and you want to expose on highlight and then push deep dark shadows many stops, then Sony sensors clearly have an advantage.  But to me it's a bad technique that unavoidably show excessive noises/grain with details smeared in original shadows areas, result to surreal leak and possible damage of color tonality. I prefer expose normally on shadow or even a bit of ETTR (expose on right) and still can recover most of highlights.  Sony sensors have about 2-stop DR advantage in shadow areas while Canon and Sony sensors basically tied in highlight headroom.  DR is important but I don't see it's a showstopper. In other sides, Canon has better lens' option (to me at least), more pleasing color tonality and skin tone (many share this subjective opinion) that are equally important.  I own 5D3 but even I build up a system from scratch as today I'd still choose Canon on the reasons I said.

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