Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year

Started Jul 2, 2013 | Discussions
Lee Jay
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to TrojMacReady, Jul 4, 2013

TrojMacReady wrote:

ljfinger wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

...let alone when the lag diminishes to imperceptible levels under most relevant circumstances in the future.

I say overstated because I already see WWII veterans (pause...exclamation mark ..pause) shooting R/C planes and helicopters in flight with perfect framing using 2 year old technology with an EVF. And zero disrespect to the elderly, but if you're much younger than that, you shouldn't have any trouble related to lag worth mentioning with that EVF for most action oriented shooting.

Depends on how fast your subjects are, and how tight you frame them. I was recently shooting with 25ms of lag, and I could not follow the subject. I had to zoom out a factor of three to follow that subject with 25ms of lag versus following it with zero lag.

So improvements are very welcome and will follow, but the handful of milliseconds (~10 ms in very low light, less in good light)

Not on any current camera. 25ms is about the fastest available right now, and that's only in good light. It's more like 350ms in low light.

Not really. I measured my old tech A500 LCD in main sensor LV to be around 51ms (+- 20ms) in low light with my computer screen being the only light source and with a fast lens obviously (who would shoot low light like that without one?). The A77 was measured (one test with oscilloscope, the other using a timer) to be as stated in my post above.

Well, maybe your definition of low-light and mine are different.  Mine is ISO 12,800, f/2.8, 1 second exposure.

I measured these using a 240fps camera.

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technic
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Michael Barker, Jul 4, 2013

Michael Barkowski wrote:

Since Midwest is too tired, will someone else explain to me, since I generally shoot static subjects, why you would want to keep TTL OVF for shooting moving subjects, since TTL OVF requires a mirror (until transparent sensors are invented) and a mirror is a physical object which needs to be moved before the shot, thereby introducing a perceptible shutter lag, and driving the need for silly features such as continuous burst shooting?

so ... all the pros doing sports photography are wrong and should use a mirrorless/EVF camera?

An EVF or LCD has display lag, an OVF has ZERO lag; it may be invisible for short periods but that's something else then lag (the EVF probably isn't updated continually either and some are using interlaced refresh that can create extra distortions).

Mirrorless cameras have shutter lag too, and the lag because of their generally slow AF is a more important factor than the delay from flipping the DSLR mirror. That might change in the future, just like EVF's will become better, but IMHO it will take at least some years before they can compete with DSLR for fast action.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to TrojMacReady, Jul 4, 2013

TrojMacReady wrote:

DSHAPK wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

DSHAPK wrote:

That scenario is way different than capturing a bif with a 500mm lens.

I shot birds in flight with a low end EVF and a 500mm lens 5 years ago. The lag has been reduced a LOT since then and other factors have improved too.

Maybe you mean those few birds that are exceptionally fast and erratic such as swallows etc. Hence why I said most action. But I've shot those using an LCD (just for kicks) too with my A500 and that's old tech, we're talking future tech.

Right, but what you find exceptional, another may find sub-optimal.

The point is that almost all birds are very easy to track, much easier than fast RC planes and helicopters.

Small birds are much harder.

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technic
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Karl Gnter Wnsch, Jul 4, 2013

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Your reaction, about 0.25 seconds, is much slower than both, so it does not matter

Your whole life you train your reactions to be in sync with your visual input - and the EVF removes that sync artificially! So the lag does very much matter! But lag is not the only problem of EVF systems, they show very little in terms of the scene (their dynamic range is far smaller than that of the resulting image) and the switch between video and still photo capture is a lengthy process for any sensor, introducing additional lag especially between shots when the mechanical movement of the mirror back into position is much faster...

So for action EVF systems suck big time!

Agree in general, but there are exceptions: some EVF cameras use a buffer that will start recording from e.g. 1 second BEFORE you press the shutter button.  Some of the Nikon 1 cameras can do this, and even ten years ago or so there were some Olympus cameras using the same trick. It's a very nice trick for some types of fast action (e.g. start or finish pictures). If I want to take pictures of a dragonfly taking off with a DSLR I'm out of luck, it will be outside the frame within 0.1 second or so and there is usually no way to 'anticipate' the right moment. I have considered buying a Nikon 1 camera just for that type of images

Theoretically one could use the same buffer trick in combination with a DSLR, but technically that would not make sense.

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technic
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Re: And that is why the 70D has an OVF
In reply to TrapperJohn, Jul 4, 2013

TrapperJohn wrote:

Not the lag, the latest EVF's have no perceptable lag.

no perceptible lag, which one are you talking about? I can easily see the lag in some of the latest models like EM5 or NEX6 ...

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technic
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Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to Mikhail Tal, Jul 4, 2013

Mikhail Tal wrote:

If you honestly don't think there will be a camera this fall with a substantially improved EVF compared to what currently exists then you must be ignorant and/or delusional.

what is 'substantially improved', with 50-100% more pixels or so but all the same flaws that every current EVF has ?

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technic
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Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

What he did have access to was an electric car that would go 100 or so miles on a charge. Just like the electric cars of today, a hundred years later.

I think you are talking about the Lohner-Porsche from around 1900? It was a hybrid and 100 miles would be extremely optimistic rating. Cruising speed of around 10 miles/hour and totally unaffordable for the average person ...  so not really 'just like'.

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technic
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to Lee Jay, Jul 4, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

The point is that almost all birds are very easy to track, much easier than fast RC planes and helicopters.

Small birds are much harder.

my experience is that birds have far less predictable trajectory than RC planes and helicopters; especially the smaller birds indeed.

I take shots of flying dragonflies and they are even less predictable than small birds. With an EVF you can probably take a lucky shot when the dragonfly is hovering or using a straight flight path for a difference, but that's about it.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to technic, Jul 4, 2013

technic wrote:

ljfinger wrote:

The point is that almost all birds are very easy to track, much easier than fast RC planes and helicopters.

Small birds are much harder.

my experience is that birds have far less predictable trajectory than RC planes and helicopters;

Bigger birds are more predictable and easier to catch, smaller birds are less predictable and harder to catch.  The crossover point in the middle depends on just how erratic and fast your particular R/C vehicles are, but it's somewhere in the "gull/duck" range.

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technic
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to Lee Jay, Jul 4, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

The top one was moving at perhaps 30mph

a dragonfly does 30 mph too, but it is at least ten times smaller than a cormorant; so the angular velocity is many times higher. And most of them fly unpredictable flight paths by design, changing direction every second or so...

And it gets even worse when they are on honeymoon ... almost 100% unpredictable. I would like to see DIF results from a current EVF camera (not just a lucky shot, I have seen a few taken in easy conditons ...).

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Mike CH
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In our context, isn't that spelled...
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Mike CH wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Let's assume the best case scenario, that Canon's new dual pixel AF system works just as well in live view as it does with the mirror down.

You joined today, I mean created a new account on here today, to post this to put down a new launch? We all know what you are. Good luck with that.

One might even ask, who was he before today?

Some typical mirrorless missionary, banging on our doors with his pamphlets, showing us the only way to salvation is with his mirrorless camera.

T

R

O

L

L

Or is there a significant difference?

Regards, Mike

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Future user
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Mikhail Tal, Jul 4, 2013

The great fact with the 70D is that, for the first time, live view AF is truly useful on a DSLR. This combined with the swivel screen, may bring some new life to the DSLR camp. Until now, you had to go mirrorless or just go manual focus. I can see some users thinking twice about jumping to mirrorless.

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Adrian Van
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Re: Majority of professionals pick DSLRs with mirror, consumers may be different
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Adrian Van wrote:

DSLRs with mirrors outsell the mirrorless by a large margin, as all sales figures today indicate. Ask the giants Canon and Nikon which sells more. See the amazon reports. Sony uses an SLT transluscent mirror still.

Over 95 per cent of full time professional photographers in my opinion prefer an OVF to an EVF, to take their professionally paid photos. Todays professionals probably own both camera types, but for serious work, most pros today will turn to DSLR and OVF.

This may be changing yearly, but not there yet as the more popular system. Sony may be starting the trend, but Nikon and Canon are largely DSLR sales more than mirrorless at the moment.

Consumers on the other hand, some of them want to feel justified that theirs is the better system.
Both systems have their pros and cons.

I also think the OMD and GH3 are great cameras, and used by some pros, but more pros use DSLRs and usually full frame if they are working full time.

I do like where they are going with Canon 70D and would like to see in other higher cameras and a 7DII.

Totally agree with all you say. And despite the constant tiresome evangelism about how mirrorless is great and DSLR's are unnecessary etc. etc. I have nothing against those cameras.
I'm sure they are great for some people and Canon's new sensor is going to elevate that type. Being able to focus at f/11 is a huge advantage in itself.

The OP ought to quit worrying about DSLR's and the 70D; for his purposes, the real story is the sensor itself, and how much better it will make Canon's mirrorless cameras than his brand. Whatever it is.

Thanks for comments. The 70D is only a start to the possible future of DSLRs, but we pros still love our OVF (most of us).

I like my Olympus Pen and great for personal use, but I would only take a Professional FF DSLR to a paid wedding job and prefer OVF for that. We may see the day of course in distant future, and Sony has a nice FF camera, but it is not here yet for the majority of pro dslr users who love using OVF.

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technic
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Future user, Jul 4, 2013

Future user wrote:

The great fact with the 70D is that, for the first time, live view AF is truly useful on a DSLR. This combined with the swivel screen, may bring some new life to the DSLR camp. Until now, you had to go mirrorless or just go manual focus. I can see some users thinking twice about jumping to mirrorless.

Agree; it makes me think twice about jumping from 450D to 6D, where all these neat features (good PDAF, good Liveview AF, swivel screen, etc.) are missing. The only real advantage of the 6D is the sensor with its (theoretically) 1 stop better performance and better use of the FF lenses (tele/macro) that I already have.

And even those thinking about mirrorless might decide to wait until much of this technology (but without OVF) appears in the new EOS-M.

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Adrian Van
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Future user, Jul 4, 2013

Future user wrote:

The great fact with the 70D is that, for the first time, live view AF is truly useful on a DSLR. This combined with the swivel screen, may bring some new life to the DSLR camp. Until now, you had to go mirrorless or just go manual focus. I can see some users thinking twice about jumping to mirrorless.

If the 7D mark 2 comes out this year with same system AF as 70D or better, and also has all the pro features and high build quality, and dual recording memory slots for professional video (ideally one being CF and the other SD), at a price point of 1500 to 1800, great for new starting videographers (that industry is going more and more video DSLR rigs when I ask all my peers), a 7DII that could be the Camera of the Year. Still photo shooters with 7DII and fast processors, will also realize great benefits with this tech, and its improved PDAF with live view.

We will see which is better when it comes out: Nikon D400 or Canon 7DII and which sells more to new entry pros and serious enthusiasts and existing photo and video pros. Long time coming for D400 and an update to Canon 7D. I am hopeful. 70D gives hope for 7DII.

With the right lenses to be available, if they release more, these will be fast shooting cameras indeed, overall smaller than lens systems with bigger FF cameras at prices more people could afford.

Why are they developing more Full Frame cameras when the trend is to make smaller cameras. Truly Pro APSC bodies with speed and new sensor tech, should be a good idea, and could encourage more pros to buy into those systems, provided image quality and video quality are great enough for the needs.

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MichaelKJ
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to technic, Jul 4, 2013

technic wrote:

Future user wrote:

The great fact with the 70D is that, for the first time, live view AF is truly useful on a DSLR. This combined with the swivel screen, may bring some new life to the DSLR camp. Until now, you had to go mirrorless or just go manual focus. I can see some users thinking twice about jumping to mirrorless.

Agree; it makes me think twice about jumping from 450D to 6D, where all these neat features (good PDAF, good Liveview AF, swivel screen, etc.) are missing. The only real advantage of the 6D is the sensor with its (theoretically) 1 stop better performance and better use of the FF lenses (tele/macro) that I already have.

And even those thinking about mirrorless might decide to wait until much of this technology (but without OVF) appears in the new EOS-M.

With the EOS-M selling for $299 at B&H, I don't think the wait for the new EOS-M will be very long.

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Midwest
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Michael Barker, Jul 4, 2013

Why don't you ask a professional sports photographer, seeing as how they all use DSLRs with that mirror .

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007peter
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I see more people MIRRORLESS EVF for Nikon/Canon DSLR
In reply to Mikhail Tal, Jul 4, 2013

The forum argument are mostly in theory.  While EVF will get better in the future, it isn't there today.  Making an EVF Canon 70D would be a mistake Today.  Perhaps, an EVF option for 90D will become viable.

In real life practice, I see many post like this:

Dumping brand new EVF Sony A58 for a Nikon OVF DSLR

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Midwest
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Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to technic, Jul 4, 2013

technic wrote:

Midwest wrote:

What he did have access to was an electric car that would go 100 or so miles on a charge. Just like the electric cars of today, a hundred years later.

I think you are talking about the Lohner-Porsche from around 1900? It was a hybrid and 100 miles would be extremely optimistic rating. Cruising speed of around 10 miles/hour and totally unaffordable for the average person ... so not really 'just like'.

I can't say ever heard of that model. I was referring to the Baker electric which was manufactured until about 1915 or 1920. Those would go about 100 miles on a charge.

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Midwest
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Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to MoreorLess, Jul 4, 2013

MoreorLess wrote:

Midwest wrote:

This is going to be a fun time if Canon's on chip AF is as good as it is said to be, and THEY hold the patent.

Remember all those people whining about the EOS-M, saying Canon doesn't care about anything but milking DSLR sales, saying Canon should buy sensors from Sony or Toshiba because clearly they themselves weren't capable of anything new, on and on... and now they come out of left field and smack a bunch of people upside the head with something revolutionary.

What was the silly name of this thread again?

To some extent I think you can see they do favour DSLR's by the fact this is debuting on the 70D but really it seems like tech that's surely been devolped for the mirrorless market.

Canon might have been late to the party(and the EOS M seems somewhat rushed) but they seem to have a strong focus on what people actually want, quality lenses that don't cost the earth and good AF.

I'll say it again, anyone who thinks that by investing in say m43 or Sony E mount lenses they've "future proofed" themselves is badly underestimating how much the mirrorless market is likely to change. Loads of players and all of them losing money means there are likely to be some high profile pull outs in the next few years.

Well said. And Canon has the patent on the dual pixel sensor... That is better than having just bought them from Sony.

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