Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year

Started Jul 2, 2013 | Discussions
DSHAPK
Contributing MemberPosts: 781Gear list
Like?
Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to TrojMacReady, Jul 4, 2013

TrojMacReady wrote:

DSHAPK wrote:

That scenario is way different than capturing a bif with a 500mm lens.

I shot birds in flight with a low end EVF and a 500mm lens 5 years ago. The lag has been reduced a LOT since then and other factors have improved too.

Maybe you mean those few birds that are exceptionally fast and erratic such as swallows etc. Hence why I said most action. But I've shot those using an LCD (just for kicks) too with my A500 and that's old tech, we're talking future tech.

Right, but what you find exceptional, another may find sub-optimal. Passable to you, may not be usable to another. I acknowledge you did say that in another way, I personally would prefer my ovf on my t4i to the best evf  out there today.

 DSHAPK's gear list:DSHAPK's gear list
Canon EOS 550D Canon EOS 650D Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Canon EF 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 II USM +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Lee Jay
Forum ProPosts: 45,320Gear list
Like?
Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to DSHAPK, Jul 4, 2013

DSHAPK wrote:

That scenario is way different than capturing a bif with a 500mm lens.

Fast R/C aircraft are harder to follow than most birds in flight (not tiny ones).

This was FAR easier to capture...

...than this was.

The top one was moving at perhaps 30mph, the bottom one at over 200mph.

-- hide signature --

Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 Lee Jay's gear list:Lee Jay's gear list
Canon IXUS 310 HS Canon PowerShot SX260 HS Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 20D Canon EOS 550D +23 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Adrian Van
Regular MemberPosts: 445Gear list
Like?
Re: Majority of professionals pick DSLRs with mirror, consumers may be different
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

DSLRs with mirrors outsell the mirrorless by a large margin, as all sales figures today indicate. Ask the giants Canon and Nikon which sells more. See the amazon reports. Sony uses an SLT transluscent mirror still.

Over 95 per cent of full time professional photographers in my opinion prefer an OVF to an EVF, to take their professionally paid photos. Todays professionals probably own both camera types, but for serious work, most pros today will turn to DSLR and OVF.

This may be changing yearly, but not there yet as the more popular system. Sony may be starting the trend, but Nikon and Canon are largely DSLR sales more than mirrorless at the moment.

Consumers on the other hand, some of them want to feel justified that theirs is the better system.
Both systems have their pros and cons.

I also think the OMD and GH3 are great cameras, and used by some pros, but more pros use DSLRs and usually full frame if they are working full time.

I do like where they are going with Canon 70D and would like to see in other higher cameras and a 7DII.

 Adrian Van's gear list:Adrian Van's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5 Nikon D700 Nikon D300S Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Fujifilm X-M1 +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to DSHAPK, Jul 4, 2013

DSHAPK wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Me: Future EVFs will be superior to OVFs

OVF people: Wrong, because present EVFs are not superior to OVFs in my opinion.

Me: Flawless logic...

Your logic is flawed because you are talking about the "Camera of the Year", which is the present, not the future.

Also the presumption that future EVFs will be better is based on faith, whereas OVF superiority is currently observed.

The electric cars of today are faster, but travel NO FURTHER on a charge than the electric car your great grandpa could buy one hundred years ago. Turn on the heat or A/C and lights and watch the range drop to half that much.

Your grandpa had access to Lithium-Ion batteries 100 years ago? Really? On what planet is this? Is it on the same planet where 0.01-0.02s of EVF lag tucked on top of 0.3-0.4s reaction time+shutter lag makes EVFs somehow unusable? Oh horror, 0.31-0.42s total lag vs 0.3-0.4s lag!

Did you know Porsche designed the first hybrid vehicle in 1903...with electric motors on the rear axle? (I believe). It wasn't lithium batteries, but lead acid batteries back them. Range hasn't increased, just the density of storage of the charge.

And it still takes many hours to 'refill' them as opposed to a couple of minutes to refill a gas tank.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice. (sarcasm)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Your grandpa had access to Lithium-Ion batteries 100 years ago? Really? On what planet is this? Is it on the same planet where 0.01-0.02s of EVF lag tucked on top of 0.3-0.4s reaction time+shutter lag makes EVFs somehow unusable? Oh horror, 0.31-0.42s total lag vs 0.3-0.4s lag!

Nothing like a viewfinder that, when burst shooting, shows you what you just took a picture of, instead of what you are about to take a picture of.

Good enough for you but not for me. Sorry, thanks for playing.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to Karl Gnter Wnsch, Jul 4, 2013

Karl Gnter Wnsch wrote:

MoreorLess wrote:

well this new AF system is likely going to be Canon only via patent so perhaps its you that should be a bit worried about your investment in a system that may now be technologically outdated in a still maturing(and loss making) market.

+1 - couldn't have said it better. The patent entered by Canon already has been posted yesterday IIRC, can't find the link currently. But Canon will have the drivers seat for on chip PD (as much as it can do without optical elements in the light paths) for some time to come. Which is going to suck for the competition.

And the 70D has got the OVF which makes it a best of both worlds camera. For applications that require speed and a tracking/predictive AF the traditional PD AF which still is leaps and bounds ahead of the best on chip PD. And the best on chip PD for applications where video subject tracking is important.

This is going to be a fun time if Canon's on chip AF is as good as it is said to be, and THEY hold the patent.

Remember all those people whining about the EOS-M, saying Canon doesn't care about anything but milking DSLR sales, saying Canon should buy sensors from Sony or Toshiba because clearly they themselves weren't capable of anything new, on and on... and now they come out of left field and smack a bunch of people upside the head with something revolutionary.

What was the silly name of this thread again?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: Majority of professionals pick DSLRs with mirror, consumers may be different
In reply to Adrian Van, Jul 4, 2013

Adrian Van wrote:

DSLRs with mirrors outsell the mirrorless by a large margin, as all sales figures today indicate. Ask the giants Canon and Nikon which sells more. See the amazon reports. Sony uses an SLT transluscent mirror still.

Over 95 per cent of full time professional photographers in my opinion prefer an OVF to an EVF, to take their professionally paid photos. Todays professionals probably own both camera types, but for serious work, most pros today will turn to DSLR and OVF.

This may be changing yearly, but not there yet as the more popular system. Sony may be starting the trend, but Nikon and Canon are largely DSLR sales more than mirrorless at the moment.

Consumers on the other hand, some of them want to feel justified that theirs is the better system.
Both systems have their pros and cons.

I also think the OMD and GH3 are great cameras, and used by some pros, but more pros use DSLRs and usually full frame if they are working full time.

I do like where they are going with Canon 70D and would like to see in other higher cameras and a 7DII.

Totally agree with all you say. And despite the constant tiresome evangelism about how mirrorless is great and DSLR's are unnecessary etc. etc. I have nothing against those cameras.
I'm sure they are great for some people and Canon's new sensor is going to elevate that type. Being able to focus at f/11 is a huge advantage in itself.

The OP ought to quit worrying about DSLR's and the 70D; for his purposes, the real story is the sensor itself, and how much better it will make Canon's mirrorless cameras than his brand. Whatever it is.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Midwest wrote:

sdribetahi wrote:

Electronic viewfinders are like looking at the world through a 1989 Atari game.

Which is more than good enough for photo'ing flowers, squirrels, bowls of fruit, demanding stuff like that which prove how great EVF's are - they can keep up with things that aren't moving.

Where do you live that squirrels aren't moving?

Oh please. It becomes apparent why you think EVF's are good enough for any purpose.

Not all EVFs, but huge (bigger than FF) 120Hz+ EVFs certainly are. Much better than those small and dark APS-C OVFs.

If that's the total margin between the VF-4 and my 7D, I think 'small and dark' sure turns to 'big and bright' with a relatively small increase in size.

I'm happy with what I have, thanks.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice. (sarcasm)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

scorrpio wrote:

..or when at a major sporting event, the number of mirrorless cameras in the press box exceeds DSLRs.

Don't they now? I mean TV/video?

If you want to buy a TV camera, this probably isn't the right forum for you.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
John Sheehy
Forum ProPosts: 16,308
Like?
Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

Eventually, I expect OVFs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Eventually, with sufficient improvements to the MP3 player, one might expect live music performances to also go the way of the dinosaurs. But, not really.

Your analogy is full of holes.  First of all, an OVF in a DSLR (rangefinder-type OVFs are a different story) is only analog in one dimension; light intensity.  It has only 2 dimensions, spatially, and they have finite resolution, as it is only possible to have a bright image emanating from the ground glass when it has fairly coarse texture.  IOW, the ground glass screen has limited resolution.

MP3 has variable compression, and an MP3 player can approach the quality of a WAV with minimal compression (I always rip to 384kbps as a minimum). only provide music from two locations, and an MP3.  A live performance is interactive with the user's ears and their positioning, and our hearing is not of combined waveforms, but of individual cilia oscillating to independent airborne frequencies.

You're going to be enjoying that 7D's 100% OVF (or one like it) for a long time to come, as I am mine.

Really?  I am not enjoying it in low light, and it is horrible for manual focusing.  An EVF that can detect where my eye is looking, and create a very aliased version of the image in a rectangle in that area would make manual focusing a breeze.  If I put my Hoodman on my Pentax Q (a virtual EVF with much higher quality than most real EVFs), and use its focus peaking, I can nail manual focus to a degree that is just a dream with my 7D, OVF, and 800mm f/11.  Holding the Q while focusing the lens is the real issue.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Let's assume the best case scenario, that Canon's new dual pixel AF system works just as well in live view as it does with the mirror down. Great, so why keep the mirror and OVF at all? This fall's newest generation of EVFs are surely going to drive the lastnail in the OVF coffin and turn it into a complete anacrhonism, making the 70D technologically obsolete just a few months in. It has been well documented that OVFs are on the verge of going the way of film, useful only for nostalgia and people who don't care about utility and functionality. So the 70D may be a nice camera, too bad canon stuck it with an OVF and mirror that the more competitive cameras will soon be able to do without (by soon I mean this fall, like Olympus, Sony, etc.)

Image you see through Olympus VF-4 is already higher than the OVF in 1Dx, and at 2.4 mpix, beyond resolution problems and of course any brightness problems with any lens in any light. APS-C OVFs need not apply.

And does it do away with little problems like being useless in burst shooting (showing what you just shot, not what you're about to, for example)? No matter what you tack on a mirrorless camera it's not going to change the weird / useless ways it works in some circumstances.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to John Sheehy, Jul 4, 2013

John Sheehy wrote:

Midwest wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

Eventually, I expect OVFs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Eventually, with sufficient improvements to the MP3 player, one might expect live music performances to also go the way of the dinosaurs. But, not really.

Your analogy is full of holes. First of all, an OVF in a DSLR (rangefinder-type OVFs are a different story) is only analog in one dimension; light intensity. It has only 2 dimensions, spatially, and they have finite resolution, as it is only possible to have a bright image emanating from the ground glass when it has fairly coarse texture. IOW, the ground glass screen has limited resolution.

MP3 has variable compression, and an MP3 player can approach the quality of a WAV with minimal compression (I always rip to 384kbps as a minimum). only provide music from two locations, and an MP3. A live performance is interactive with the user's ears and their positioning, and our hearing is not of combined waveforms, but of individual cilia oscillating to independent airborne frequencies.

You're going to be enjoying that 7D's 100% OVF (or one like it) for a long time to come, as I am mine.

Really? I am not enjoying it in low light, and it is horrible for manual focusing. An EVF that can detect where my eye is looking, and create a very aliased version of the image in a rectangle in that area would make manual focusing a breeze. If I put my Hoodman on my Pentax Q (a virtual EVF with much higher quality than most real EVFs), and use its focus peaking, I can nail manual focus to a degree that is just a dream with my 7D, OVF, and 800mm f/11. Holding the Q while focusing the lens is the real issue.

Well then I would say it is time for you to dump it and move on. No camera is right for everyone.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 14,202
Like?
Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to DSHAPK, Jul 4, 2013

DSHAPK wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

DSHAPK wrote:

That scenario is way different than capturing a bif with a 500mm lens.

I shot birds in flight with a low end EVF and a 500mm lens 5 years ago. The lag has been reduced a LOT since then and other factors have improved too.

Maybe you mean those few birds that are exceptionally fast and erratic such as swallows etc. Hence why I said most action. But I've shot those using an LCD (just for kicks) too with my A500 and that's old tech, we're talking future tech.

Right, but what you find exceptional, another may find sub-optimal. Passable to you, may not be usable to another. I acknowledge you did say that in another way, I personally would prefer my ovf on my t4i to the best evf out there today.

I used to say the same thing about my T3i (same basic VF as the T4i). And I don't recall any forum posts from the Rebel forum saying 'My viewfinder is freezing / tearing' or 'my viewfinder is too small / too dim'.

The people who seem to have most of the problems with OVF's are people who don't have them, and maybe never did.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
TrojMacReady
Senior MemberPosts: 8,534
Like?
Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to DSHAPK, Jul 4, 2013

DSHAPK wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

DSHAPK wrote:

That scenario is way different than capturing a bif with a 500mm lens.

I shot birds in flight with a low end EVF and a 500mm lens 5 years ago. The lag has been reduced a LOT since then and other factors have improved too.

Maybe you mean those few birds that are exceptionally fast and erratic such as swallows etc. Hence why I said most action. But I've shot those using an LCD (just for kicks) too with my A500 and that's old tech, we're talking future tech.

Right, but what you find exceptional, another may find sub-optimal.

The point is that almost all birds are very easy to track, much easier than fast RC planes and helicopters.

And for most, I prefer a large EVF, even over a t4i, which is similar to my small A500 OVF.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
TrojMacReady
Senior MemberPosts: 8,534
Like?
Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

The people who seem to have most of the problems with OVF's are people who don't have them, and maybe never did.

You'll find that the majority of posters in the Sony forum shooting with SLT's, have come from OVF's.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
cgarrard
Forum ProPosts: 14,520Gear list
Like?
I'm going to be nice
In reply to Mikhail Tal, Jul 4, 2013

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Let's assume the best case scenario, that Canon's new dual pixel AF system works just as well in live view as it does with the mirror down. Great, so why keep the mirror and OVF at all? This fall's newest generation of EVFs are surely going to drive the lastnail in the OVF coffin and turn it into a complete anacrhonism, making the 70D technologically obsolete just a few months in. It has been well documented that OVFs are on the verge of going the way of film, useful only for nostalgia and people who don't care about utility and functionality. So the 70D may be a nice camera, too bad canon stuck it with an OVF and mirror that the more competitive cameras will soon be able to do without (by soon I mean this fall, like Olympus, Sony, etc.)

Despite what my first thoughts were.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. However, your one opinion does not determine a camera as camera of the year or not.

My opinion is that this camera will be a lot more popular than any other DSLR to come out all year long, and sell very well. As for camera of the year, maybe could be more specific as to whom you are saying will or won't make it camera of the year. I can think of a thousand publications.

Carl

http://www.carlgarrard.blogspot.com/ (Best work compilation)
http://www.photographic-central.blogspot.com (Gear reviews)
Also formerly AlphaMountWorld.com (Now off the web)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Michael Barker
Senior MemberPosts: 1,964Gear list
Like?
Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Let's assume the best case scenario, that Canon's new dual pixel AF system works just as well in live view as it does with the mirror down. Great, so why keep the mirror and OVF at all? This fall's newest generation of EVFs are surely going to drive the lastnail in the OVF coffin and turn it into a complete anacrhonism, making the 70D technologically obsolete just a few months in. It has been well documented that OVFs are on the verge of going the way of film, useful only for nostalgia and people who don't care about utility and functionality. So the 70D may be a nice camera, too bad canon stuck it with an OVF and mirror that the more competitive cameras will soon be able to do without (by soon I mean this fall, like Olympus, Sony, etc.)

You're going to get some disagreement on this post.

It gets so wearisome trying to explain to fruit-bowl and flower shooters why a TTL OVF is both necessary and superior to mirrorless, at least for those of us who aren't photo'ing things that just stand in place.

As always a case of insecurity brought on by 'when they stop making that other kind of camera, it will prove that mine is the best kind' syndrome.

Since Midwest is too tired, will someone else explain to me, since I generally shoot static subjects, why you would want to keep TTL OVF for shooting moving subjects, since TTL OVF requires a mirror (until transparent sensors are invented) and a mirror is a physical object which needs to be moved before the shot, thereby introducing a perceptible shutter lag, and driving the need for silly features such as continuous burst shooting?

 Michael Barker's gear list:Michael Barker's gear list
Pentax K-30
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MoreorLess
Senior MemberPosts: 3,020
Like?
Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

This is going to be a fun time if Canon's on chip AF is as good as it is said to be, and THEY hold the patent.

Remember all those people whining about the EOS-M, saying Canon doesn't care about anything but milking DSLR sales, saying Canon should buy sensors from Sony or Toshiba because clearly they themselves weren't capable of anything new, on and on... and now they come out of left field and smack a bunch of people upside the head with something revolutionary.

What was the silly name of this thread again?

To some extent I think you can see they do favour DSLR's by the fact this is debuting on the 70D but really it seems like tech that's surely been devolped for the mirrorless market.

Canon might have been late to the party(and the EOS M seems somewhat rushed) but they seem to have a strong focus on what people actually want, quality lenses that don't cost the earth and good AF.

I'll say it again, anyone who thinks that by investing in say m43 or Sony E mount lenses they've "future proofed" themselves is badly underestimating how much the mirrorless market is likely to change. Loads of players and all of them losing money means there are likely to be some high profile pull outs in the next few years.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
kriti789
New MemberPosts: 1
Like?
Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Mikhail Tal, Jul 4, 2013

This is a website which will store and restore the faith and love of god in you. church in aurora  It has an online bookstore and an internet campus to provide you with all the guidance that is necessary.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
TrojMacReady
Senior MemberPosts: 8,534
Like?
Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to Lee Jay, Jul 4, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

...let alone when the lag diminishes to imperceptible levels under most relevant circumstances in the future.

I say overstated because I already see WWII veterans (pause...exclamation mark ..pause) shooting R/C planes and helicopters in flight with perfect framing using 2 year old technology with an EVF. And zero disrespect to the elderly, but if you're much younger than that, you shouldn't have any trouble related to lag worth mentioning with that EVF for most action oriented shooting.

Depends on how fast your subjects are, and how tight you frame them. I was recently shooting with 25ms of lag, and I could not follow the subject. I had to zoom out a factor of three to follow that subject with 25ms of lag versus following it with zero lag.

So improvements are very welcome and will follow, but the handful of milliseconds (~10 ms in very low light, less in good light)

Not on any current camera. 25ms is about the fastest available right now, and that's only in good light. It's more like 350ms in low light.

Not really. I measured my old tech A500 LCD in main sensor LV to be around 51ms (+- 20ms) in low light with my computer screen being the only light source and with a fast lens obviously (who would shoot low light like that without one?). The A77 was measured (one test with oscilloscope, the other using a timer) to be as stated in my post above.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads