Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year

Started Jul 2, 2013 | Discussions
peevee1
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Midwest wrote:

sdribetahi wrote:

Electronic viewfinders are like looking at the world through a 1989 Atari game.

Which is more than good enough for photo'ing flowers, squirrels, bowls of fruit, demanding stuff like that which prove how great EVF's are - they can keep up with things that aren't moving.

Where do you live that squirrels aren't moving?

Oh please. It becomes apparent why you think EVF's are good enough for any purpose.

Not all EVFs, but huge (bigger than FF) 120Hz+ EVFs certainly are. Much better than those small and dark APS-C OVFs.

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DSHAPK
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Mikhail Tal, Jul 4, 2013

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Let's assume the best case scenario, that Canon's new dual pixel AF system works just as well in live view as it does with the mirror down. Great, so why keep the mirror and OVF at all? This fall's newest generation of EVFs are surely going to drive the lastnail in the OVF coffin and turn it into a complete anacrhonism, making the 70D technologically obsolete just a few months in. It has been well documented that OVFs are on the verge of going the way of film, useful only for nostalgia and people who don't care about utility and functionality. So the 70D may be a nice camera, too bad canon stuck it with an OVF and mirror that the more competitive cameras will soon be able to do without (by soon I mean this fall, like Olympus, Sony, etc.)

You're going to get some disagreement on this post.

It gets so wearisome trying to explain to fruit-bowl and flower shooters why a TTL OVF is both necessary and superior to mirrorless, at least for those of us who aren't photo'ing things that just stand in place.

As always a case of insecurity brought on by 'when they stop making that other kind of camera, it will prove that mine is the best kind' syndrome.

No, it is just a case of people like you not having reading comprehension, it's like if you said that land line phones were superior to mobile phones in 1989 because mobile phones were oversized. All of the significant ways in which OVFs can currently construed as functionally superior to EVFs are just a short matter of time from no longer qualifying as superior. That's where we can all see the insecurity of people who deny the inexorable tidal wave of mirrorless cameras drowning the OVF diehards in a wake of anachronism.

Actually during the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy land line phones with copper were much more useful than cell phones. Death of OVF is as exaggerated as when 60 years ago it was said the world would run out of oil by the year 2000.

It actually looks like the 70D might: NOT NOT be the camera of the year.

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Your reaction, about 0.25 seconds, is much slower than both, so it does not matter

Your whole life you train your reactions to be in sync with your visual input - and the EVF removes that sync artificially! So the lag does very much matter! But lag is not the only problem of EVF systems, they show very little in terms of the scene (their dynamic range is far smaller than that of the resulting image) and the switch between video and still photo capture is a lengthy process for any sensor, introducing additional lag especially between shots when the mechanical movement of the mirror back into position is much faster...

So for action EVF systems suck big time!

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Re: Is this why TV can't follow golf balls in flight?
In reply to Just Having Fun, Jul 4, 2013

Just Having Fun wrote:

And so TV cameras will not be able to follow golf balls, hockey pucks, baseballs, etc. because they all use EVFs. Oh, wait...they have been doing that for years.

And the apprenticeship of a cameraman for TV is how long? They pull the focus manually - and it takes them years of exhaustive and expensive training to get it half right.

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John Sheehy
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Midwest, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Let's assume the best case scenario, that Canon's new dual pixel AF system works just as well in live view as it does with the mirror down. Great, so why keep the mirror and OVF at all? This fall's newest generation of EVFs are surely going to drive the lastnail in the OVF coffin and turn it into a complete anacrhonism, making the 70D technologically obsolete just a few months in. It has been well documented that OVFs are on the verge of going the way of film, useful only for nostalgia and people who don't care about utility and functionality. So the 70D may be a nice camera, too bad canon stuck it with an OVF and mirror that the more competitive cameras will soon be able to do without (by soon I mean this fall, like Olympus, Sony, etc.)

You're going to get some disagreement on this post.

It gets so wearisome trying to explain to fruit-bowl and flower shooters why a TTL OVF is both necessary and superior to mirrorless, at least for those of us who aren't photo'ing things that just stand in place.

As always a case of insecurity brought on by 'when they stop making that other kind of camera, it will prove that mine is the best kind' syndrome.

Are we talking about last year's affordable EVFs, or tomorrow's?  I certainly feel compromised looking through the EVF of my Canon SX50 compared to looking through my Canon 7D or 6D, especially for telephoto stuff, but I envision a future where we have 4MP EVFs with quality optics with high contrast and brightness variation to match the ambient lighting, and lag that is less than 5ms, and a user-selectable pre-click time offset to get a buffered shot from before the time that you pressed the shutter button.  This could result in far less practical lag than when we have to wait for a slothful, camera-shaking mirror to get out of the way.  The only exception being that if you have just quickly swung the camera into position, the composition will be slightly off.  If you're already on-target, pure gain.

Eventually, I expect OVFs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

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DSHAPK
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to John Sheehy, Jul 4, 2013

You may be right, and the earth will eventually run out of oil.

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to MoreorLess, Jul 4, 2013

MoreorLess wrote:

 well this new AF system is likely going to be Canon only via patent so perhaps its you that should be a bit worried about your investment in a system that may now be technologically outdated in a still maturing(and loss making) market.

+1 - couldn't have said it better. The patent entered by Canon already has been posted yesterday IIRC, can't find the link currently. But Canon will have the drivers seat for on chip PD (as much as it can do without optical elements in the light paths) for some time to come. Which is going to suck for the competition.

And the 70D has got the OVF which makes it a best of both worlds camera. For applications that require speed and a tracking/predictive AF the traditional PD AF which still is leaps and bounds ahead of the best on chip PD. And the best on chip PD for applications where video subject tracking is important.

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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Image you see through Olympus VF-4 is ... of course any brightness problems with any lens in any light.

Which is ouright dangerous as the light adaptation of the viewfinder eye is disturbed. It takes a full 15 minutes to adapt your eyes to the darkness but only seconds to disturb that adaptation fully. This results in dangerous visibility problems at night...

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DSHAPK
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Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Me: Future EVFs will be superior to OVFs

OVF people: Wrong, because present EVFs are not superior to OVFs in my opinion.

Me: Flawless logic...

Your logic is flawed because you are talking about the "Camera of the Year", which is the present, not the future.

Also the presumption that future EVFs will be better is based on faith, whereas OVF superiority is currently observed.

The electric cars of today are faster, but travel NO FURTHER on a charge than the electric car your great grandpa could buy one hundred years ago. Turn on the heat or A/C and lights and watch the range drop to half that much.

Your grandpa had access to Lithium-Ion batteries 100 years ago? Really? On what planet is this? Is it on the same planet where 0.01-0.02s of EVF lag tucked on top of 0.3-0.4s reaction time+shutter lag makes EVFs somehow unusable? Oh horror, 0.31-0.42s total lag vs 0.3-0.4s lag!

Did you know Porsche designed the first hybrid vehicle in 1903...with electric motors on the rear axle? (I believe). It wasn't lithium batteries, but lead acid batteries back them. Range hasn't increased, just the density of storage of the charge.

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Midwest
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to John Sheehy, Jul 4, 2013

John Sheehy wrote:

Eventually, I expect OVFs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Eventually, with sufficient improvements to the MP3 player, one might expect live music performances to also go the way of the dinosaurs. But, not really.

You're going to be enjoying that 7D's 100% OVF (or one like it) for a long time to come, as I am mine.

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steelhead3
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Biggs23, Jul 4, 2013

You know electrons are pretty fast, much faster than our reaction time looking through a glass prism.

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steelhead3
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to Karl Gnter Wnsch, Jul 4, 2013

Personally I like to live dangerously; I even drive at night.

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Midwest
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

Rod McD wrote:

Hi,

Let's use your approach and say that in the best case scenario EVF resolution catches up with OVF resolution. The issue will remain that EVFs exhibit lags where OVFs are instantaneous. It simply takes milliseconds of processing time to capture the image, process it, relay it and display it in the EVF. So for tasks like sports, birds in flight - anything that needs critical timing, the OVF is likely to be faster - probably always.

Not probably, 100% for sure.

OVF = the speed of light.

EVF = the speed of light + processing time.

Ergo, an OVF will ALWAYS be faster, period.

Your reaction, about 0.25 seconds, is much slower than both, so it does not matter - if you want to shoot action, you have to anticipate anyway, and the amount of anticipation varies by insignificant percentage (smaller percentage than the variability caused by different shutter release lags in different cameras).

It's not just the movement of the subject in the viewfinder, but moving the viewfinder via panning etc. Can an EVF keep up without 'tearing' the screen? I've read reference to that and am asking that as an honest question.

I've also read (it's been a while since I had an EVF) that some EVF's when burst shooting do not show an actual view of the subject between shots, but the one you just took, which is rather useless.

There must be SOME reasons the pro's haven't all jumped to mirrorless cameras with EVF's. All I know is that I feel absolutely no reason to change away from my OVF, I am not looking for something 'better', I am entirely happy with what I have.

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Midwest
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Re: LOL OVF people
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Me: Future EVFs will be superior to OVFs

OVF people: Wrong, because present EVFs are not superior to OVFs in my opinion.

Me: Flawless logic...

Your logic is flawed because you are talking about the "Camera of the Year", which is the present, not the future.

Also the presumption that future EVFs will be better is based on faith, whereas OVF superiority is currently observed.

The electric cars of today are faster, but travel NO FURTHER on a charge than the electric car your great grandpa could buy one hundred years ago. Turn on the heat or A/C and lights and watch the range drop to half that much.

Your grandpa had access to Lithium-Ion batteries 100 years ago? Really? On what planet is this? Is it on the same planet where 0.01-0.02s of EVF lag tucked on top of 0.3-0.4s reaction time+shutter lag makes EVFs somehow unusable? Oh horror, 0.31-0.42s total lag vs 0.3-0.4s lag!

No my grandpa didn't have access to lithium ion batteries.

What he did have access to was an electric car that would go 100 or so miles on a charge. Just like the electric cars of today, a hundred years later.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to John Sheehy, Jul 4, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Ed B wrote:

Mikhail Tal wrote:

Let's assume the best case scenario, that Canon's new dual pixel AF system works just as well in live view as it does with the mirror down. Great, so why keep the mirror and OVF at all? This fall's newest generation of EVFs are surely going to drive the lastnail in the OVF coffin and turn it into a complete anacrhonism, making the 70D technologically obsolete just a few months in. It has been well documented that OVFs are on the verge of going the way of film, useful only for nostalgia and people who don't care about utility and functionality. So the 70D may be a nice camera, too bad canon stuck it with an OVF and mirror that the more competitive cameras will soon be able to do without (by soon I mean this fall, like Olympus, Sony, etc.)

You're going to get some disagreement on this post.

It gets so wearisome trying to explain to fruit-bowl and flower shooters why a TTL OVF is both necessary and superior to mirrorless, at least for those of us who aren't photo'ing things that just stand in place.

As always a case of insecurity brought on by 'when they stop making that other kind of camera, it will prove that mine is the best kind' syndrome.

Are we talking about last year's affordable EVFs, or tomorrow's?  I certainly feel compromised looking through the EVF of my Canon SX50 compared to looking through my Canon 7D or 6D, especially for telephoto stuff, but I envision a future where we have 4MP EVFs with quality optics with high contrast and brightness variation to match the ambient lighting, and lag that is less than 5ms, and a user-selectable pre-click time offset to get a buffered shot from before the time that you pressed the shutter button.  This could result in far less practical lag than when we have to wait for a slothful, camera-shaking mirror to get out of the way.  The only exception being that if you have just quickly swung the camera into position, the composition will be slightly off.  If you're already on-target, pure gain.

Eventually, I expect OVFs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

I need it to maintain that type of speed in darkness as well. We're orders of magnitude away from that right now.
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TrojMacReady
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Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to Mikhail Tal, Jul 4, 2013

...let alone when the lag diminishes to imperceptible levels under most relevant circumstances in the future.

I say overstated because I already see WWII veterans (pause...exclamation mark ..pause) shooting R/C planes and helicopters in flight with perfect framing using 2 year old technology with an EVF. And zero disrespect to the elderly, but if you're much younger than that, you shouldn't have any trouble related to lag worth mentioning with that EVF for most action oriented shooting.

So improvements are very welcome and will follow, but the handful of milliseconds (~10 ms in very low light, less in good light) we're talking about now, is hardly going to kill pictures when our reaction time and even the shutterlag (not even counting focusing) on most of the DSLR's sold today is still many times longer.

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John1940
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Re: Canon 70D: NOT the camera of the year
In reply to peevee1, Jul 4, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

scorrpio wrote:

..or when at a major sporting event, the number of mirrorless cameras in the press box exceeds DSLRs.

Don't they now? I mean TV/video?

Yes , they do--and many pro TV video cameras and camcorders are made by Canon. But, they only have HDTV 2 MP displays, which are large (of course) and have acceptably little lag. The reason is that for fast sports, such as hockey, they set the camera to wide angle so it does not need to follow the puck exactly. Even in golf, it's possible to follow a driven ball because it starts fast and, more or less, follows the same trajectory.

It's puzzling to me why some people (including the OP) think that they only can have one horse in the race (either EF or OF). Canon has been in the VF game for many years because of consumer and real pro video cameras. If they see that VF still-camera bodies (FF or APS) can increase sales, and not cannibalize OF DSLR body sales, they'll offer both. They know how to do it better than anybody.

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DSHAPK
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to TrojMacReady, Jul 4, 2013

That scenario is way different than capturing a bif with a 500mm lens.

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to DSHAPK, Jul 4, 2013

DSHAPK wrote:

That scenario is way different than capturing a bif with a 500mm lens.

I shot birds in flight with a low end EVF and a 500mm lens 5 years ago. The lag has been reduced a LOT since then and other factors have improved too.

Maybe you mean those few birds that are exceptionally fast and erratic such as swallows etc. Hence why I said most action. But I've shot those using an LCD (just for kicks) too with my A500 and that's old tech, we're talking future tech.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Lag, it exists but often overstated now....
In reply to TrojMacReady, Jul 4, 2013

TrojMacReady wrote:

...let alone when the lag diminishes to imperceptible levels under most relevant circumstances in the future.

I say overstated because I already see WWII veterans (pause...exclamation mark ..pause) shooting R/C planes and helicopters in flight with perfect framing using 2 year old technology with an EVF. And zero disrespect to the elderly, but if you're much younger than that, you shouldn't have any trouble related to lag worth mentioning with that EVF for most action oriented shooting.

Depends on how fast your subjects are, and how tight you frame them.  I was recently shooting with 25ms of lag, and I could not follow the subject.  I had to zoom out a factor of three to follow that subject with 25ms of lag versus following it with zero lag.

So improvements are very welcome and will follow, but the handful of milliseconds (~10 ms in very low light, less in good light)

Not on any current camera.  25ms is about the fastest available right now, and that's only in good light.  It's more like 350ms in low light.

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