Getting to the 500mm range without spending $10K+

Started Jun 29, 2013 | Discussions
joger
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to schmegg, Jul 6, 2013

schmegg wrote:

Not sure I buy it - but you were there, I was not.

who cares?

I do (almost) better images with my new iPhone 5 then I hardly do with all my expensive gear

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Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee
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Re: "Poor Man's Image Stabilization"
In reply to TB Rich, Jul 6, 2013

Oh no not at all, I'm a rank amateur asking to learn! Often I do fire a couple off but using differing shutter button presses so AF changes each time. Using a burst on a single press would keep the AF point locked. So I was just wondering really if this technique may be a better method. Only one way to tell is to try of course, though I don't shoot landscape really but was thinking about doing some tomorrow for a change.

One of the points about autofocus is that it is inconsistent. Every time the camera focuses on a particular target there is a degree of variation. So taking several shots of something where you can, is a good idea. Liveview is more accurate esp with magnification. Stopping down of course also helps. If you are someone like Joger, and he can't help being the way he is, that's his nature, you can get so obsessed about ultimate sharpness that you forget to take action shots like this (my future son-in-law in a river swim today)..

It's sharp enough but that's not at all what attracts me to it. It's the splash..

Of course I can't repeat this exact shot, but I shot lots. Don't forget to take photographs. That's what gear is for. I take a lot of shots which I would regard as slightly off as regards focus or sharpness or even exposure which other people rate highly, bless them, so do not allow perfection to interfere with function.

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schmegg
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to joger, Jul 6, 2013

joger wrote:

schmegg wrote:

Not sure I buy it - but you were there, I was not.

who cares?

I don't.

I do (almost) better images with my new iPhone 5 then I hardly do with all my expensive gear

Now I know that's not the case. And I know you are a very capable photographer. I respect your abilities. But I do wish you could acknowledge that your way is not the only way - nor is it the "best" way - just "a" way.

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R2D2
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Re: "Poor Man's Image Stabilization"
In reply to TB Rich, Jul 7, 2013

TB Rich wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

I'll almost always shoot off a burst and then cherry pick the sharpest one (there's invariably one that's sharpest!).

Do you use AI servo, or just one shot AF

AI Servo. However, it's implemented differently depending on the subject being photographed. I use back-button AF exclusively, so sometimes the AF is "locked" on the subject for the duration of the burst, and sometimes I'm still engaging the AF during the burst.

& literally spray and pray(!) assuming that 1 of the barrage of shots is at a moment when the camera is at its stillest?

That's exactly the principle at work here.  I've shot with my 400 f5.6L (with confidence) down to 1/40 sec unsupported using this method.  Like I said, I gain about 2 stops over my single shot (unsupported) capability.

Here's one I've got in my gallery of a moving duck (AI Servo engaged during the burst) shot at 1/80 second handheld (best viewed at "original" size)...

Give it a whirl, it really works!

R2

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R2D2
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Forgot to mention...
In reply to R2D2, Jul 7, 2013

Oooops.  Forgot to mention that the duck is a 100% crop of this (slightly cropped) image...

R2

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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to joger, Jul 7, 2013

joger wrote:

my image from the Pfingstturnier in Wiesbaden wit AF in panning mode - luck that the AF is spot on

Wow, this is a fantastic shot.  300L/2.8 IS II rocks on very sharp 5D II   I agreed 5D2 individual AF with center-point only is very accurate.

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schmegg
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to qianp2k, Jul 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

I agreed 5D2 individual AF with center-point only is very accurate.

Imagine having 61 of them covering the frame!

(Oh wait - you don't need to imagine it - you have it now)

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joger
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to schmegg, Jul 7, 2013

schmegg wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

I agreed 5D2 individual AF with center-point only is very accurate.

Imagine having 61 of them covering the frame!

(Oh wait - you don't need to imagine it - you have it now)

and soon we will have 18 Million of AF points on the sensor or maybe even 30 Million on FF

Imagine how that rocks

either way - on sensor AF will be the game changer where I acknowledge that we really see an advantage and not just a another one eyed man in the land of the blind.

All conventional AF systems today have there shortcomings - I see no dramatic difference between them in my own and the results from others. Yes I do see a difference and convenience aspects but maybe I am too old to play with all those knobs and I don't want to change the AF clusters in my camera constantly to fine tune them to my current task.

What i would like to see is the technology that has been presented with the 70D sensor but as the main AF system and not as an aid of the video system. With automated face and pattern recognition and 18 or 30 or maybe 50 Million AF points.

The difference between the AF system and the señor surface is always present - yesterday we tested the 28-300 on a D800E and found out that it is nearly impossible to focus this lens manually or automated perfectly - if you focus it perfectly it is quite near (in the center of the frame) to the performance (resolution and sharpness) of the 70-200 f/2.8 VR.

What I do (if the subject is slow enough) is to use live view focussing (already today) - then the focus is really spot on and only then the focus is really perfect for the shallow depth of field my lenses generate (sometimes)

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Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee
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Re: Forgot to mention...
In reply to R2D2, Jul 7, 2013

R2D2 wrote:

Oooops. Forgot to mention that the duck is a 100% crop of this (slightly cropped) image...

R2

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I've always taken multiple shots for that reason, even in the days of film. There's always a "best" one.

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Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to joger, Jul 7, 2013

joger wrote:

All conventional AF systems today have there shortcomings - I see no dramatic difference between them in my own and the results from others. Yes I do see a difference and convenience aspects but maybe I am too old to play with all those knobs and I don't want to change the AF clusters in my camera constantly to fine tune them to my current task.

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So, instead of changing the AF clusters (pointless in your camera, but you could easily buy the much better 5D3) which you would find burdensome, you prefer to lug around a tripod the size of a small horse with a ballhead, gimbals, olives vines and citrus fruit and make it much easier for yourself...

Naw..

The focus and the sharpness of the horse picture is brilliant, BUT there is colourful out of focus stuff which detracts from the picture. So, it's NOT technically brialliant. Instead of being obsessed with the ultimate sharpness, look for that kind of stuff and eliminate it..

Oh and trade in the 5D2 and get a 5D3 or a 1Dx or any camera that doesn't have an antedeluvian autofocus system..

as you alway add, yourself

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qianp2k
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to schmegg, Jul 7, 2013

schmegg wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

I agreed 5D2 individual AF with center-point only is very accurate.

Imagine having 61 of them covering the frame!

(Oh wait - you don't need to imagine it - you have it now)

But doesn't matter if center-point does its job as in 5D2 and 6D cases.  I'd agree more outer points certainly benefit in certain scenarios such as in close-up portrait with a fast-aperture lens in wide open if your model is not in center that I do benefit from my 5D3.  I actually used center-point only in more shots from my 5D3 on static subjects.

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MiLei
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Re: Getting to the 500mm range without spending $10K+
In reply to plautoq, Jul 7, 2013

I am using Tamron 200-500mm. In good days results are good, but a lot light or a good support is needed. And of course, like with all long teles, I can't shoot distant targets because air is not clear enough.

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joger
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to qianp2k, Jul 8, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

schmegg wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

I agreed 5D2 individual AF with center-point only is very accurate.

Imagine having 61 of them covering the frame!

(Oh wait - you don't need to imagine it - you have it now)

But doesn't matter if center-point does its job as in 5D2 and 6D cases. I'd agree more outer points certainly benefit in certain scenarios such as in close-up portrait with a fast-aperture lens in wide open if your model is not in center that I do benefit from my 5D3. I actually used center-point only in more shots from my 5D3 on static subjects.

and it does it's job more then adequate

horse race images from yesterday with some 10 m distance - horse passing in full y race speed with servo AF

one learning in my shooting from yesterday - below 200 mm focal length it completely useless for me because there is hardly any isolation of the subject - 420 mm and 600 mm are too long for horses passing by - 300 mm is a good compromise for group shots and individual riders - completely different scenario compare to the greyhounds i did now several times.

For the greyhounds 600 mm was almost too short (on FF)

horses for courses

The 300 f/4.0 plus extender or the 500 f/4.0 (I) in good used condition would be my choice if you need an optically and mechanically outstanding 500 mm lens below 10 k USD - thers is currently on on ebay  ending in 20 h

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BigBen08
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Re: In-camera image stabilization not likely to be effective for 500mm
In reply to NancyP, Jul 8, 2013

NancyP wrote:

particularly for BIF photos - tripod shots might be ok.

Do you know from experience, or are you guessing?

My Olympus 50-200 and 1.4x provides the same fov as a 566mm lens on a FF camera. The in camera stabilization of my E-620 provides a significant benefit when I pan aircraft.

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Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee
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If you had peripheral autofocus points that worked...
In reply to joger, Jul 8, 2013

joger wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

schmegg wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

I agreed 5D2 individual AF with center-point only is very accurate.

Imagine having 61 of them covering the frame!

(Oh wait - you don't need to imagine it - you have it now)

But doesn't matter if center-point does its job as in 5D2 and 6D cases. I'd agree more outer points certainly benefit in certain scenarios such as in close-up portrait with a fast-aperture lens in wide open if your model is not in center that I do benefit from my 5D3. I actually used center-point only in more shots from my 5D3 on static subjects.

and it does it's job more then adequate

horse race images from yesterday with some 10 m distance - horse passing in full y race speed with servo AF

one learning in my shooting from yesterday - below 200 mm focal length it completely useless for me because there is hardly any isolation of the subject - 420 mm and 600 mm are too long for horses passing by - 300 mm is a good compromise for group shots and individual riders - completely different scenario compare to the greyhounds i did now several times.

For the greyhounds 600 mm was almost too short (on FF)

horses for courses

The 300 f/4.0 plus extender or the 500 f/4.0 (I) in good used condition would be my choice if you need an optically and mechanically outstanding 500 mm lens below 10 k USD - thers is currently on on ebay ending in 20 h

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ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

You could've shot something like this...

Collis Birmingham, Australia, one of the world's best runners at the Cork City Sports..

Your jockey is too far forwards in the shot, it makes it uneasy..

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joger
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Re: Lesser gear is not a waste
In reply to joger, Jul 8, 2013

had a second look at the before mentioned ebay auction - the buy now price is just 2500 USD - that's a bargain IMHO

(would almost make sense for myself)

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The A-Team
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Re: Getting to the 500mm range without spending $10K+
In reply to plautoq, Jul 8, 2013

This is quite simple.

Any crop camera and a 70-300mm will do. (well okay, its only 480mm...)

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Mark K
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Re: Getting to the 500mm range without spending $10K+
In reply to plautoq, Jul 8, 2013

plautoq wrote:

What are your thoughts on getting to the 500mm range ? Canon IS 100-400, Sigma OS 150-500mm, Canon IS 300mm with 1.4 extender (close enough), Canon non-IS 400 with 1.4 extender or other alternatives ? What is your experience so far if you own any (or all) of those lenses ? I saw a lot of comments, but it seems like there is no clear winner. Of course, north of 10K is a no brainer with all available options. Maybe you can share your experiences with cropping as well to reach the same equivalent magnification.

Cheers.

I have the same thinking....Sigma 120-300/2.8 plus a TC will solve the problem

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Mark K

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mjkshots
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Re: Getting to the 500mm range without spending $10K+ SAVE A BIT, GET ALOT!
In reply to garyknrd, Aug 27, 2013

Hi there, I just saw this and had to throw out some feedback from my experiences. I have had a couple images published in a magazine using a SIGMA 500MM F4.5 APO lens during one of the events I attended, so it is up to par with the media standards.....

I bought a 500mm f4.5 sigma apo lens (the older eos mount one) it was a smoking good deal, I bought insurance for it from square trade, thank God. I used this lens for about 3 months and it worked ok, at the time I also owned a canon 400mm f5.6 L lens and a 35-350mm L lens. So I was already spoiled so to say with the knowledge of how great the canon L series lenses work.

I shot with my newly purchased sigma 500mm apo lens for 1 day on location for a (surf) photo shoot, I failed to get any really crisp images that day, I tried all that I Knew I could change and adjust on my camera canon 1d mkII to get crisp shots but the auto focus was just not up to par compared to my usm canon lenses. I ended up shooting in manual focus with this lens and it produced crisper images, with a lot more work and frustration, but the range of the lens was ideal for what I needed to shoot and the price was well worth it.

After a couple months I shot a contest and other events and I also spent hours shooting small birds and a couple red tail hawks that I was stoked to see and have the power of this lens to fill the viewfinder. Around 80% of the time I was shooting on manual focus.

During the last month I owned this lens I took it on a hike up to the top of a summit, around 3-4 miles 1000' altitude gain to shoot the moonrise and the sunset from a wonderful vantage point. I had the lens in the lens trunk and carried it up in my backpack to keep it safe. I set up my tripod and threw on the lens. I went to tighten the tripod knob and was unable to do so. the knob had broken internally, the issue with the knob was there when I first got it but never froze like now. it was frozen so I COULD NOT TIGHTEN IT. I shot photos that night and got a couple good shots but was unable to shoot some long exposure images as the camera would slightly rotate and had play.

I got home and tried to fix the knob, I could not get the tripod ring off any way I tried. I ended up sending it in to squaretade and they took a couple weeks to work on it and failed to fix it, they ended up refunding my money. I paid just over $1000 for this lens and was a bit sad to not have it any more, I wanted to have it back even though it had issues. that was untill recently.

I recently bought a Canon ef 500mm f4.5 L lens with a broken tripod collar knob, I paid a bit more for this lens but it was at another bargain price. I was able to take the tripod collar off this lens and replace the knob with a new knob. I am able to shoot in auto focus 99% of the time and produce crisp images. I am no longer sad that my sigma lens is gone, I was happy to have had it and it did help me get a few bucks but I would highly recommend to any one looking to buy a long lens that they need to either save up a bit longer and buy a used canon 500mm f 4.5 L lens or a 600mm, or to purchase a brand new 400mm f5.6 L lens, I have yet to try out the newer sigma lenses but the apo lens was no where near as nice as my canon 500mm f4.5L lens. I am very happy that I was refunded money and saved up a bit longer to purchase my broken (now fixed) used canon 500mm f4.5 L lens. I paid just over $500 more for this canon lens than I did for that SIGMA 500MM F4.5 APO lens and I would save longer and WOULD BE WILLING TO pay more for a canon EF 500mm f4.5 L LENS

LENSES I RECOMMEND FOR CANON EOS MOUNT. (price, weight, size, and power all considered.)

CANON EF 400MM F5.6 L NEW AROUND $1200 (SHARP! AFFORDABLE! POWERFUL! LIGHT, GREAT TRAVEL LENS)

CANON EF 500MM F4.5 L (USED) AVERAGE GOING RATE $3400)SIGMA 500MM NEW AROUND 5 GRAND) BEST LENS I HAVE EVER USED! SHARP, SMOOTH, FAST, STRONG, AMAZING!

-mike

these images were resized but un altered to show the lens capability.

CANON 400MM F5.6L CANON 1DMKII BODY NATHAN HEDGE  PH-MIKE-KOTOWSKI

canon 500mm f4.5 L 1D MKII BODY PH-MIKE-KOTOWSKI

SIGMA 500MM F4.5 APO CANON 1D MKII BODY. BRANDON SMITH  PH-MIKE-KOTOWSKI

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