Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?

Started Jun 28, 2013 | Discussions
Pedagydusz
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to josbiker, Jun 28, 2013

OK, but for me it is irrelevant the GH-3 35-100 combination... OTOH, I would like to see that lens combined with the G-6 or E-P5. So...

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ernstbk
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to josbiker, Jun 28, 2013

josbiker wrote:

Pedagydusz wrote:

If I understand correctly your point, I would say that the reviewers usually refer to resolution obtained under MF conditions because they want to give a value that is always right, a limit of what that camera/lens combination is capable. In the case of MFT, where the precision of CDAF is very high, may be that is not so important. But with Reflex cameras (with mirror, and a separate AF sensor) there are frequent, very frequent, common really, back-focusing and front-focusing problems, that vary from one camera/lens combination to the next.

So if the reviewers were to give numbers concerning the performance of the camera/lens combination on AF conditions, that might be good for one, but meaningless for another person with identical equipment.

So, what I want is a review that tells me what a camera can do, at best. It is up to me to reach that or not, but at least I know the limit.

I hope this helps

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I like to know the numbers for a given combination e.g GH3 with the 35-100 /2,8 lens and with this number i have some thing concrete and not something vague or words!

Bob Tullis earlier in this thread already gave you the number, however we still do not know what is the question.

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josbiker
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to Pedagydusz, Jun 29, 2013

Pedagydusz wrote:

OK, but for me it is irrelevant the GH-3 35-100 combination... OTOH, I would like to see that lens combined with the G-6 or E-P5. So...

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What do you mean with SO..........

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josbiker
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to ernstbk, Jun 29, 2013

ernstbk wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Pedagydusz wrote:

If I understand correctly your point, I would say that the reviewers usually refer to resolution obtained under MF conditions because they want to give a value that is always right, a limit of what that camera/lens combination is capable. In the case of MFT, where the precision of CDAF is very high, may be that is not so important. But with Reflex cameras (with mirror, and a separate AF sensor) there are frequent, very frequent, common really, back-focusing and front-focusing problems, that vary from one camera/lens combination to the next.

So if the reviewers were to give numbers concerning the performance of the camera/lens combination on AF conditions, that might be good for one, but meaningless for another person with identical equipment.

So, what I want is a review that tells me what a camera can do, at best. It is up to me to reach that or not, but at least I know the limit.

I hope this helps

-- hide signature --

I like to know the numbers for a given combination e.g GH3 with the 35-100 /2,8 lens and with this number i have some thing concrete and not something vague or words!

Bob Tullis earlier in this thread already gave you the number, however we still do not know what is the question.

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Josbiker

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Michael J Davis
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Pedagydusz has already given you an answer close to what I would say, but let me try just once.

1. DPR and other testers try to give us the best figures that the camera / lens can provide, so that we know what is possible with the equipment

2. The camera tests give figures for the sensor resolution

3. The lens tests give the range of results through the apertures/zooms/across the sensor space.

4. You are asking for auto-focus results. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

5. Poorer autofocus/camera shake/shutter shock results will vary according to the user's handling and approach.

6. If you are getting worse results than the optimum, then the solution is in your hands, not the testers.

If you cannot see this, could you please supply the test protocol for 'your' intended autofocus test, please?

Mike

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Mike Davis
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josbiker
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to Michael J Davis, Jun 29, 2013

Michael J Davis wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Pedagydusz has already given you an answer close to what I would say, but let me try just once.

1. DPR and other testers try to give us the best figures that the camera / lens can provide, so that we know what is possible with the equipment

2. The camera tests give figures for the sensor resolution

3. The lens tests give the range of results through the apertures/zooms/across the sensor space.

4. You are asking for auto-focus results. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

5. Poorer autofocus/camera shake/shutter shock results will vary according to the user's handling and approach.

6. If you are getting worse results than the optimum, then the solution is in your hands, not the testers.

If you cannot see this, could you please supply the test protocol for 'your' intended autofocus test, please?

Mike

-- hide signature --

Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
www.flickr.com/photos/watchman

4.  But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

That is not the true there is a big difference!

When you shot on a tripod and you shot in manual mode and compare the resolution in autofocus than you have in autofocus less resolution!

And that is the figure i like to know and this is neglected in review and tests!

Josbiker

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Klaus dk
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No!
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

Michael J Davis wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Pedagydusz has already given you an answer close to what I would say, but let me try just once.

1. DPR and other testers try to give us the best figures that the camera / lens can provide, so that we know what is possible with the equipment

2. The camera tests give figures for the sensor resolution

3. The lens tests give the range of results through the apertures/zooms/across the sensor space.

4. You are asking for auto-focus results. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

5. Poorer autofocus/camera shake/shutter shock results will vary according to the user's handling and approach.

6. If you are getting worse results than the optimum, then the solution is in your hands, not the testers.

If you cannot see this, could you please supply the test protocol for 'your' intended autofocus test, please?

Mike

-- hide signature --

Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
www.flickr.com/photos/watchman

4. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

That is not the true there is a big difference!

When you shot on a tripod and you shot in manual mode and compare the resolution in autofocus than you have in autofocus less resolution!

And that is the figure i like to know and this is neglected in review and tests!

Josbiker

No! No! NO! NO!

You seem to assume, that a lens performs differently when manually focused than it does when autofocused. Several posters have tried to explain to you that this is not the case.

Using any lens under less than ideal conditions will of course give less than ideal results, but apart from the problems with less than precise autofocus of PDAF, there is no difference between manual focus and autofocus. On a CDAF camera, autofocus is as precise as manual focus. PDAF can have back- or front focus problems, but that will be sample variations, not a general problem for the camera/lens combination.

Do you really think that a lens performs worse when used with autofocus, and on what data is this assumption based?

PS - it does not help that you write some words bold and underlined.

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josbiker
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Re: No!
In reply to Klaus dk, Jun 29, 2013

Klaus dk wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Michael J Davis wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Pedagydusz has already given you an answer close to what I would say, but let me try just once.

1. DPR and other testers try to give us the best figures that the camera / lens can provide, so that we know what is possible with the equipment

2. The camera tests give figures for the sensor resolution

3. The lens tests give the range of results through the apertures/zooms/across the sensor space.

4. You are asking for auto-focus results. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

5. Poorer autofocus/camera shake/shutter shock results will vary according to the user's handling and approach.

6. If you are getting worse results than the optimum, then the solution is in your hands, not the testers.

If you cannot see this, could you please supply the test protocol for 'your' intended autofocus test, please?

Mike

-- hide signature --

Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
www.flickr.com/photos/watchman

4. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

That is not the true there is a big difference!

When you shot on a tripod and you shot in manual mode and compare the resolution in autofocus than you have in autofocus less resolution!

And that is the figure i like to know and this is neglected in review and tests!

Josbiker

No! No! NO! NO!

You seem to assume, that a lens performs differently when manually focused than it does when autofocused. Several posters have tried to explain to you that this is not the case.

Using any lens under less than ideal conditions will of course give less than ideal results, but apart from the problems with less than precise autofocus of PDAF, there is no difference between manual focus and autofocus. On a CDAF camera, autofocus is as precise as manual focus. PDAF can have back- or front focus problems, but that will be sample variations, not a general problem for the camera/lens combination.

Do you really think that a lens performs worse when used with autofocus, and on what data is this assumption based?

PS - it does not help that you write some words bold and underlined.

Yes,Yes, Yes

http://www.traumflieger.de/reports/Videos/Traumflieger-DSLR-Woche/DER-Autofokus-Test-DSLR-Wo-18-Teil-1::405.html?XTCsid=670114e4dc1be6cec49d1f521e60087a

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josbiker
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Re: No!
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

Klaus dk wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Michael J Davis wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Pedagydusz has already given you an answer close to what I would say, but let me try just once.

1. DPR and other testers try to give us the best figures that the camera / lens can provide, so that we know what is possible with the equipment

2. The camera tests give figures for the sensor resolution

3. The lens tests give the range of results through the apertures/zooms/across the sensor space.

4. You are asking for auto-focus results. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

5. Poorer autofocus/camera shake/shutter shock results will vary according to the user's handling and approach.

6. If you are getting worse results than the optimum, then the solution is in your hands, not the testers.

If you cannot see this, could you please supply the test protocol for 'your' intended autofocus test, please?

Mike

-- hide signature --

Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
www.flickr.com/photos/watchman

4. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

That is not the true there is a big difference!

When you shot on a tripod and you shot in manual mode and compare the resolution in autofocus than you have in autofocus less resolution!

And that is the figure i like to know and this is neglected in review and tests!

Josbiker

No! No! NO! NO!

You seem to assume, that a lens performs differently when manually focused than it does when autofocused. Several posters have tried to explain to you that this is not the case.

Using any lens under less than ideal conditions will of course give less than ideal results, but apart from the problems with less than precise autofocus of PDAF, there is no difference between manual focus and autofocus. On a CDAF camera, autofocus is as precise as manual focus. PDAF can have back- or front focus problems, but that will be sample variations, not a general problem for the camera/lens combination.

Do you really think that a lens performs worse when used with autofocus, and on what data is this assumption based?

PS - it does not help that you write some words bold and underlined.

Yes,Yes, Yes

http://www.traumflieger.de/reports/Videos/Traumflieger-DSLR-Woche/DER-Autofokus-Test-DSLR-Wo-18-Teil-1::405.html?XTCsid=670114e4dc1be6cec49d1f521e60087a

Do not blame me if you do not understand German.

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glanzrabe
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

I understand what you mean; in short it´s the difference between clinical tests and the practical use.

But it will be difficult to make standard tests in field conditions...

I´ve had many different cameras in the last decade and I often had problems with the AF-results of

PDAF- system cams in sense of back or front focusing ( I admit looking at 100 %.... )

With my OM-D the results are really much more constant.  But how to test this in objective way?

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bert

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josbiker
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to glanzrabe, Jun 29, 2013

glanzrabe wrote:

I understand what you mean; in short it´s the difference between clinical tests and the practical use.

But it will be difficult to make standard tests in field conditions...

I´ve had many different cameras in the last decade and I often had problems with the AF-results of

PDAF- system cams in sense of back or front focusing ( I admit looking at 100 %.... )

With my OM-D the results are really much more constant. But how to test this in objective way?

-- hide signature --

bert

At last one (probably very inteligent :-)) who understands me and now the rest, come on ?

@ glanzrabe an everybody else: difficult is not relevant we need the correct info to go on and we all use our camera"s not in a clinic but in the practice, and the most of us use the auto focus in our all day shooting!

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josbiker
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Re: No!
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Klaus dk wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Michael J Davis wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Pedagydusz has already given you an answer close to what I would say, but let me try just once.

1. DPR and other testers try to give us the best figures that the camera / lens can provide, so that we know what is possible with the equipment

2. The camera tests give figures for the sensor resolution

3. The lens tests give the range of results through the apertures/zooms/across the sensor space.

4. You are asking for auto-focus results. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

5. Poorer autofocus/camera shake/shutter shock results will vary according to the user's handling and approach.

6. If you are getting worse results than the optimum, then the solution is in your hands, not the testers.

If you cannot see this, could you please supply the test protocol for 'your' intended autofocus test, please?

Mike

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Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
www.flickr.com/photos/watchman

4. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

That is not the true there is a big difference!

When you shot on a tripod and you shot in manual mode and compare the resolution in autofocus than you have in autofocus less resolution!

And that is the figure i like to know and this is neglected in review and tests!

Josbiker

No! No! NO! NO!

You seem to assume, that a lens performs differently when manually focused than it does when autofocused. Several posters have tried to explain to you that this is not the case.

Using any lens under less than ideal conditions will of course give less than ideal results, but apart from the problems with less than precise autofocus of PDAF, there is no difference between manual focus and autofocus. On a CDAF camera, autofocus is as precise as manual focus. PDAF can have back- or front focus problems, but that will be sample variations, not a general problem for the camera/lens combination.

Do you really think that a lens performs worse when used with autofocus, and on what data is this assumption based?

PS - it does not help that you write some words bold and underlined.

Yes,Yes, Yes

http://www.traumflieger.de/reports/Videos/Traumflieger-DSLR-Woche/DER-Autofokus-Test-DSLR-Wo-18-Teil-1::405.html?XTCsid=670114e4dc1be6cec49d1f521e60087a

Do not blame me if you do not understand German.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IEwwZuQqKM

look at the figures, etc, etc, and print and remember:-)!

Josbiker

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Klaus dk
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Re: No!
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

Do not blame me if you do not understand German.

I think I understand German quite as well as you understand English.

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Ulric
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

Did you read Roger Cicala's article? It shows that phase detect autofocus is as accurate as careful manual focus, i.e. very, very accurate.

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AllMankind
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With my eyes, it is
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

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Ulfric M Douglas
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

In most cases i used the autofocus (97%) of my camera/lens and NOT the resolution in manual mode and/of on a tripod mode shown in TESTS and Reviews!

Because the combination lens/camera is the factor that counts and not the labour circumstances with the best lens on a tripod.

So the quality (resolution) that one can received in AUTOFOCUS counts.

So in my opinion is autofocus quality much more important.

Who think in the same way or not?

Josbiker

Stop shouting.

I understand.

What you want is a consistent measureable figure for AutoFocus performance with regard to sharpness, averaged across real-world examples using a camera + lens combination.

This would need to be repeatable, accurate and consistent-across-systems. (Like MTF resolution charts etc)

...

I don't see it happening, myself.

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wazu
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Re: Is AutoFocus more practice than manualfocus?
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

Pedagydusz wrote:

If I understand correctly your point, I would say that the reviewers usually refer to resolution obtained under MF conditions because they want to give a value that is always right, a limit of what that camera/lens combination is capable. In the case of MFT, where the precision of CDAF is very high, may be that is not so important. But with Reflex cameras (with mirror, and a separate AF sensor) there are frequent, very frequent, common really, back-focusing and front-focusing problems, that vary from one camera/lens combination to the next.

So if the reviewers were to give numbers concerning the performance of the camera/lens combination on AF conditions, that might be good for one, but meaningless for another person with identical equipment.

So, what I want is a review that tells me what a camera can do, at best. It is up to me to reach that or not, but at least I know the limit.

I hope this helps

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I like to know the numbers for a given combination e.g GH3 with the 35-100 /2,8 lens and with this number i have some thing concrete and not something vague or words!

Settle down, chill a little. Bob already supplied you with THE numbers, 42.

If you are going to post in English then get a better translator or find the question posted on the net and copy paste it. Show some examples even. For example a MF image and an AF image of say some tight converging lines printed out at 300dpi on a laser printer. I've read through all the posts and I still don't get what you are asking/posting.

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Art_P
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AF performance...
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

Is dependent as much on the camera as the lens.

12-60mm is fast and accurate on an E-5, but disappointing on a PEN

The camera a 20mm 1.7 is mounted on could have a noticeable effect on focus speed.

A big 4/3 lens may miss focus w a small body (E-4xx, E-6xx) and perform better w a battery grip added.

If you're concerned w real world AF performance, look to user reviews here and elsewhere, the clinical tests won't cover all possible parameters, but can tell you how good the lens is once properly focused.

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Art P
"I am a creature of contrast,
of light and shadow.
I live where the two play together,
I thrive on the conflict"

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josbiker
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Re: No!
In reply to josbiker, Jun 29, 2013

josbiker wrote:

josbiker wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Klaus dk wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Michael J Davis wrote:

josbiker wrote:

Let us assume I take a picture with a e.g. Canon 650 with a given lens zoom in AUTOFOCUS , the resolution in lines is e.g. 1450 lines after the measurement.

I do the same (in AF) with a GH3 with e.g. the 35-100/2.8 lens in AUTOFOCUS and now I measure have 2200 lines!

I do the same with a Canon 5D MK3 with a zoom lens (the best) in AUTO FOCUS and now i measure e.g. 2300 lines

So i always use a very good zoom lens and not the best prime lenses because that is the way i like to take my pictures (and perhaps a lot of us)!

I do the same with the Canon 5D mk3 with the very best prime lens and I get 3300 lines. Wow much better I (we) I think.

But that is a shortsighted view, because I do not wanted this lens and I never buy such a lens!

So if the reviewers gives us only the value of the very best prime lens e.g. a macro lens than it is for me and perhaps a lot of other people who only wants a very good zoom lens and we use only zoom lens in AF that is not information I am (we) looking for!

There are a lot of reasons to use very good zoom lenses, so, please, no discussion on this point

Surprise, surprise there is just a little resolution difference between a FF Canon and a GH3 in AUTO FOCUS!

I like to know the difference between a FF camera in AUTOFOCUS and the speed and e.g the GH3 under the SAME conditions!

So than I know what I (we) wanted to buy

I can (you can) made mistakes if you do not know the figures!

So for me the results with the zooms in AUTOFUCUS are important and the results of prime much less

So for many of us (i think) it is much more informative when you know that number when you have the only need for a Gh3 with one or two zoom lenses and you used these zoom lenses in 97% of your shots.

I assume that there are a lot of intelligent people in this forum who understand my questions and the ones who do not understand my questions so please give answers and open door answers?

Pedagydusz has already given you an answer close to what I would say, but let me try just once.

1. DPR and other testers try to give us the best figures that the camera / lens can provide, so that we know what is possible with the equipment

2. The camera tests give figures for the sensor resolution

3. The lens tests give the range of results through the apertures/zooms/across the sensor space.

4. You are asking for auto-focus results. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

5. Poorer autofocus/camera shake/shutter shock results will vary according to the user's handling and approach.

6. If you are getting worse results than the optimum, then the solution is in your hands, not the testers.

If you cannot see this, could you please supply the test protocol for 'your' intended autofocus test, please?

Mike

-- hide signature --

Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
www.flickr.com/photos/watchman

4. But when the camera/lens focuses and there is no camera shake etc. the results should be the same as the best possible.

That is not the true there is a big difference!

When you shot on a tripod and you shot in manual mode and compare the resolution in autofocus than you have in autofocus less resolution!

And that is the figure i like to know and this is neglected in review and tests!

Josbiker

No! No! NO! NO!

You seem to assume, that a lens performs differently when manually focused than it does when autofocused. Several posters have tried to explain to you that this is not the case.

Using any lens under less than ideal conditions will of course give less than ideal results, but apart from the problems with less than precise autofocus of PDAF, there is no difference between manual focus and autofocus. On a CDAF camera, autofocus is as precise as manual focus. PDAF can have back- or front focus problems, but that will be sample variations, not a general problem for the camera/lens combination.

Do you really think that a lens performs worse when used with autofocus, and on what data is this assumption based?

PS - it does not help that you write some words bold and underlined.

Yes,Yes, Yes

http://www.traumflieger.de/reports/Videos/Traumflieger-DSLR-Woche/DER-Autofokus-Test-DSLR-Wo-18-Teil-1::405.html?XTCsid=670114e4dc1be6cec49d1f521e60087a

Do not blame me if you do not understand German.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IEwwZuQqKM

look at the figures, etc, etc, and print and remember:-)!

Josbiker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IEwwZuQqKM

Where is the comment on this youtube about AUTOFOCUS resolution info?

Anybody?

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josbiker
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Re: AF performance...
In reply to Art_P, Jun 29, 2013

Art_P wrote:

Is dependent as much on the camera as the lens.

12-60mm is fast and accurate on an E-5, but disappointing on a PEN

The camera a 20mm 1.7 is mounted on could have a noticeable effect on focus speed.

A big 4/3 lens may miss focus w a small body (E-4xx, E-6xx) and perform better w a battery grip added.

If you're concerned w real world AF performance, look to user reviews here and elsewhere, the clinical tests won't cover all possible parameters, but can tell you how good the lens is once properly focused.

-- hide signature --

Art P
"I am a creature of contrast,
of light and shadow.
I live where the two play together,
I thrive on the conflict"

Far from the question and far from the subject!

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Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8 Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 35-100mm F2.8 OIS +2 more
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