About moderation - Feedback

Started Jun 24, 2013 | Discussions
DonA2
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 26, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

In my experience on various forums, community moderation doesn't work. There are users and there are moderators. It seldom works when the two are the same person.

Your statement should read, "there are users and abusers". All societies require policing because of abusers. Moderation does work for the good of the vast majority. If you are one of the minority you are best to conform or live with disillusionment.

No. My statement stands. You're statement is besides the point. Users should not be moderators and moderators should not be users. I suggested that if a user is to be a moderator then they should only moderate forums they don't participate in. Anything else doesn't work.

I cannot think of a single reason why a moderator should be excluded from commenting in a thread.   They are every bit as interested and knowledgeable as any participant.  I have not seen an instance where a mod has bullied anyone elses opinion and have often offered solid advice.  Just how are they threatening your views?  They are volunteers, give much of their free time and take some uncalled for abuse.  A bit of respect is small payment.

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v steffel
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to Olga Johnson, Jun 27, 2013

Thanks, Olga Johnson.

This is reassuring.  Because in time there were be doctorate students who will research the phenomena of camera forums, etc., with a lot of different questions.  They could study the development of forums over time.  Such information in the "black hole" might then become available if company owners grant permission.

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Simon Joinson
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 27, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

gloaming wrote:

I submitted a complaint directly via the feedback link at the bottom of every page on Sunday, and it happens to be about moderation. I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement.

Welcome to the club. The way DPR is right now, the community moderators are the first and last word.

Which is weird because I emailed you personally on May 18 asking you to contact me directly, but I didn't hear back. I'm looking at the email in my sent folder as I type this.

Simon

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lenshoarder
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to Simon Joinson, Jun 27, 2013

Simon Joinson wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

gloaming wrote:

I submitted a complaint directly via the feedback link at the bottom of every page on Sunday, and it happens to be about moderation. I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement.

Welcome to the club. The way DPR is right now, the community moderators are the first and last word.

Which is weird because I emailed you personally on May 18 asking you to contact me directly, but I didn't hear back. I'm looking at the email in my sent folder as I type this.

Simon

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Strange, I just checked my PMs again. I only have one PM. I think it's the only PM I've ever gotten. It is from the admin but it's dated May 16 and is informing me about the gearshop.

"May 16, 2013 07:28:37

As a valued member of the DPReview community we'd like to invite you to try out an exciting new initiative launching today.

For almost a year, we've been working with a dedicated team on a new store called DPReview GearShop, which is nearly ready for its public unveiling."

I have no other PMs.

Let me go check my actual email account including the spam folder. I assumed that we would be contacted though the PM system.

Found it in my email account.  I didn't think we would be contacted there.  My mistake.

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lenshoarder
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to DonA2, Jun 27, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

In my experience on various forums, community moderation doesn't work. There are users and there are moderators. It seldom works when the two are the same person.

Your statement should read, "there are users and abusers". All societies require policing because of abusers. Moderation does work for the good of the vast majority. If you are one of the minority you are best to conform or live with disillusionment.

No. My statement stands. You're statement is besides the point. Users should not be moderators and moderators should not be users. I suggested that if a user is to be a moderator then they should only moderate forums they don't participate in. Anything else doesn't work.

I cannot think of a single reason why a moderator should be excluded from commenting in a thread. They are every bit as interested and knowledgeable as any participant. I have not seen an instance where a mod has bullied anyone elses opinion and have often offered solid advice. Just how are they threatening your views? They are volunteers, give much of their free time and take some uncalled for abuse. A bit of respect is small payment.

Here's a couple of reasons.  1) Just having that "mod" symbol next to their name changes everything  There's a concept of acting under the color of authority.  2) I have seen threads where the mod makes the last point and then declares the thread closed.  3) As you've said, they are volunteers.  If they don't want to do it, then don't do it.  It's a priviledge, not a burden.

My suggestion that mods only moderate forums they don't participate in solves these problems.  They can participate in the forums they are passionate about.  They can moderate in the forums they are inpartial about.  What's the problem with that?

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bosjohn21
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Re: Time to take a break
In reply to DonA2, Jun 27, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

Well John you have somewhat overstated your case and although it has some small merit, in a court of law a Judge would have you evicted. The mod's have proven to be beneficial to the decorum of these forums. There is little to no evidence of abuse. As with any volunteered position, such as we have here, it is very difficult to please everyone. I am sure most participants here are well satisfied with our moderators.

Quick search shows more than five hundred threads concerning Moderation in the past year. You don't think thats a lot?

The condescension aside there is more then enough evidence that there are problems. I am not on any side and I think the problems are systemic not personal. I think too many rules makes a difficult task for a moderator much harder. Making the reasons for decisions public will help everyone know what the moderators limits are and become much easier to keep within the toleration zone so to speak

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AllMankind
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 27, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

Found it in my email account. I didn't think we would be contacted there. My mistake.

Yes, this seems to be a problem at DPR.  Rather than sending a PM they send to your email address, which may be years old, out of date and no longer used.

Would it not make much more sense to use PMs for all communications between DPR admin/mods and users than old, possibly no longer used, email addresses?

Or would that make too much sense?

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AllMankind
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 27, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

No. My statement stands. You're statement is besides the point. Users should not be moderators and moderators should not be users. I suggested that if a user is to be a moderator then they should only moderate forums they don't participate in. Anything else doesn't work.

This is basically what I suggested in my first post above.  However the mod disagreed with me saying that would reduce his DPR experience.

DPR seems now to be the Land of the Lost.

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AllMankind
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to DonA2, Jun 27, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

A bit of respect is small payment.

Respect needs to be EARNED.

The actions of some mods here has caused me to lose respect for them.  And while I do realize that the actions of a few should not reflect on the majority, that is the way respect works.  Now the rest have to work harder to regain lost trust and respect.  And that will happen ONLY if DPR reigns in the rogue mods.  Or better yet, defrocks them.

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AllMankind
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 27, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

Here's a couple of reasons. 1) Just having that "mod" symbol next to their name changes everything There's a concept of acting under the color of authority. 2) I have seen threads where the mod makes the last point and then declares the thread closed. 3) As you've said, they are volunteers. If they don't want to do it, then don't do it. It's a priviledge, not a burden.

I agree completely.  We are on the same page.

My suggestion that mods only moderate forums they don't participate in solves these problems. They can participate in the forums they are passionate about. They can moderate in the forums they are inpartial about. What's the problem with that?

Perhaps it is just too logical for DPR to grasp.

DPR does not seem to understand what 'Conflict of Interest' means.

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gloaming
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to AllMankind, Jun 27, 2013

I have moderated a number of fora, hobby and academic.  I have participated in all of them.  However, whereas it was obvious I was the instructor in those that were academic in nature, the hobby one displayed no indicator of my status.  Obviously, it soon became widely known because there were times it made perfect sense to participate AS a moderator, such as in often vain attempts to explain the nature of moderation on that forum, including the rationale for locked/deleted threads and post or the policies that lead to such actions.

I believe moderators should be able to participate and to separate their moderator duties when it is appropriate to do.  There's a fine line, and not all are successful at finding it or in treading on the correct side of it.  In that respect, no site requiring user-moderators will be entirely immune, and it behooves the 'overseers' to be that much more involved.

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illy
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Re: Excerpt
In reply to Great Bustard, Jun 27, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

illy wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Simon Joinson wrote:

Discussion of Moderation policies, rules and interpretation is perfectly acceptable, and is one of the ways we refine and if necessary change our rules and policies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50509430

as long as it has no references specific moderation actions.

Can you give an example?

how many do you need?

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Biggs23
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 27, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

My suggestion that mods only moderate forums they don't participate in solves these problems. They can participate in the forums they are passionate about. They can moderate in the forums they are inpartial about. What's the problem with that?

Oftentimes there are trolls that frequent specific forums. Their actions individually do not rise to the level needed to take action but their collective posts, when you know their history, make it evident that action needs to be taken. A mod who is a regular reader of that forum would be able to view the poster's history rather than just a single complained about post.

However, if you demand that a mod only moderate forums they have no interest in what will happen is that they will just bop in, look for complaints, take care of the brutally obvious ones, and leave the trolls to run wild because they will have no history to work with.

Removing spam but allowing rampant trolling, is that what you'd like to see?

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Simon Joinson
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to AllMankind, Jun 27, 2013

AllMankind wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

Found it in my email account. I didn't think we would be contacted there. My mistake.

Yes, this seems to be a problem at DPR. Rather than sending a PM they send to your email address, which may be years old, out of date and no longer used.

Would it not make much more sense to use PMs for all communications between DPR admin/mods and users than old, possibly no longer used, email addresses?

Or would that make too much sense?

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actually this isn't true either. We reply to feedback emails using the email address you put in the feedback form. Which is why I get annoyed when i take the time to reply and discover I'm trying to send an email to 'dontbotherreplying@yousuck.con'

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DonA2
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 27, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

I cannot think of a single reason why a moderator should be excluded from commenting in a thread. They are every bit as interested and knowledgeable as any participant. I have not seen an instance where a mod has bullied anyone elses opinion and have often offered solid advice. Just how are they threatening your views? They are volunteers, give much of their free time and take some uncalled for abuse. A bit of respect is small payment.

Here's a couple of reasons. 1) Just having that "mod" symbol next to their name changes everything There's a concept of acting under the color of authority. 2) I have seen threads where the mod makes the last point and then declares the thread closed. 3) As you've said, they are volunteers. If they don't want to do it, then don't do it. It's a priviledge, not a burden.

My suggestion that mods only moderate forums they don't participate in solves these problems. They can participate in the forums they are passionate about. They can moderate in the forums they are inpartial about. What's the problem with that?

Let's just state that we agree to disagree.  You obviously would prefer to keep discussions open and free of oversight.  That only works in a perfect world.  Well guess what?  We don't live in that world.  There is a small minority that feel burdened, even threatened,  by rules, regulation and laws but the majority understand the need.  That's democracy in action.

As for moderators being restricted from stating a view in a thread of interest I see that there are many on this thread challenging a mods statement.  Were they cut off, banned or restricted?  No.

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illy
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to DonA2, Jun 27, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

As for moderators being restricted from stating a view in a thread of interest I see that there are many on this thread challenging a mods statement. Were they cut off, banned or restricted? No.

actually i disagree with you there, i can't be specific about it for obvious reasons

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mehdrtr
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Spot on!
In reply to Biggs23, Jun 27, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

My suggestion that mods only moderate forums they don't participate in solves these problems. They can participate in the forums they are passionate about. They can moderate in the forums they are inpartial about. What's the problem with that?

Oftentimes there are trolls that frequent specific forums. Their actions individually do not rise to the level needed to take action but their collective posts, when you know their history, make it evident that action needs to be taken. A mod who is a regular reader of that forum would be able to view the poster's history rather than just a single complained about post.

Otherwise, we might be talking to a troll without even noticing it.

However, if you demand that a mod only moderate forums they have no interest in what will happen is that they will just bop in, look for complaints, take care of the brutally obvious ones, and leave the trolls to run wild because they will have no history to work with.

Removing spam but allowing rampant trolling, is that what you'd like to see?

Certainly not!

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Any opinions I express are my own and do not represent DPReview. Have a good one and God bless!

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Great Bustard
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to illy, Jun 27, 2013

illy wrote:

DonA2 wrote:

As for moderators being restricted from stating a view in a thread of interest I see that there are many on this thread challenging a mods statement. Were they cut off, banned or restricted? No.

actually i disagree with you there, i can't be specific about it for obvious reasons

Could you elaborate? 

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lenshoarder
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to DonA2, Jun 28, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

I cannot think of a single reason why a moderator should be excluded from commenting in a thread. They are every bit as interested and knowledgeable as any participant. I have not seen an instance where a mod has bullied anyone elses opinion and have often offered solid advice. Just how are they threatening your views? They are volunteers, give much of their free time and take some uncalled for abuse. A bit of respect is small payment.

Here's a couple of reasons. 1) Just having that "mod" symbol next to their name changes everything There's a concept of acting under the color of authority. 2) I have seen threads where the mod makes the last point and then declares the thread closed. 3) As you've said, they are volunteers. If they don't want to do it, then don't do it. It's a priviledge, not a burden.

My suggestion that mods only moderate forums they don't participate in solves these problems. They can participate in the forums they are passionate about. They can moderate in the forums they are inpartial about. What's the problem with that?

Let's just state that we agree to disagree. You obviously would prefer to keep discussions open and free of oversight. That only works in a perfect world. Well guess what? We don't live in that world. There is a small minority that feel burdened, even threatened, by rules, regulation and laws but the majority understand the need. That's democracy in action.

Democracy?  There's nothing democratic about how forums are run, including DPR.  They are dictactorships.  Some are benign dictatorships like Singapore, others not so much.  Those open discussions which you disdain would be the democracies.  Since the majority would by definition rule through force of numbers.  The only forum I can think of that is a democracy is CraigsList where most posts are taken down not by moderators, but by popular vote of the readers.  In fact the admins/moderators are pretty much non existant there even when you do want one.

More importantly, most forums allow users to ignore other users.  So if someone "trolls", simply ignore them and they can't troll you since you don't even see their posts.  Some prefer to censor what others write.  I think it's better that we simply censor what we choose to read.

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lenshoarder
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Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to Biggs23, Jun 28, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

My suggestion that mods only moderate forums they don't participate in solves these problems. They can participate in the forums they are passionate about. They can moderate in the forums they are inpartial about. What's the problem with that?

Oftentimes there are trolls that frequent specific forums. Their actions individually do not rise to the level needed to take action but their collective posts, when you know their history, make it evident that action needs to be taken. A mod who is a regular reader of that forum would be able to view the poster's history rather than just a single complained about post.

However, if you demand that a mod only moderate forums they have no interest in what will happen is that they will just bop in, look for complaints, take care of the brutally obvious ones, and leave the trolls to run wild because they will have no history to work with.

Removing spam but allowing rampant trolling, is that what you'd like to see?

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Any opinions I express are my own and do not represent DPReview. Have a good one and God bless!

Those same "trolls" would have many compaints logged against them.  So by simply looking at that history it would be easy to spot a "troll".  This would be fairly subjective if the complaints came in from a variety of users.  A moderator that participates in a forum would have a bias.  One person's "troll" is another person's truth teller.  It all depends on one's perspective.  A mod that actively participates in a forum would have his/hers own biases.  Thus their determination of a "troll" would be subjective depending on their point of view.  I would venture to say that someone a mod classifies as a troll would have a different point of view than the mod.

As an aside, I find your signature ironic.  By the fact that DPR made you a mod, your opinions do represent DPReview.  They made you their representative.  Such is the color of authority.

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