About moderation - Feedback

Started Jun 24, 2013 | Discussions
v steffel
Senior MemberPosts: 1,125
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to quadrox, Jun 26, 2013

I think that introducing moderators has brought a lot of good.  On one forum the abusiveness, offensiveness, and sheer verbal brutality by one individual was uncalled for.  Pulling threads, removing segments of threads, etc., did nothing to slow this individual.  This individual picked on people who turned out not to have thick skins and weren't picking on anyone--they were here to learn, but were devastated by the abusive and derisory comments.  Even bans did not help.

So, in short, moderators have brought a degree of civility that has been welcomed.

I will say that what I disliked is deleting threads or segments of thread because we now lack the evidence to prove our points of such action.  Websites, in one sense, are modern archives.

-- hide signature --

v steffel
frame frame! shoot shoot! sauvette!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Daisy AU
Senior MemberPosts: 1,561Gear list
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to quadrox, Jun 26, 2013

With all due respect, this is silly!  If you don't like the way DPR and its mods operate, then go somewhere else. There are many other forums. As for mods expressing their own views, that is normal in many other forums too. Why do some people enjoy always complaining about things? You are free to move to another website if you don't like the way DPR is run. Negativity is a killer for everybody here! IMHO.

-- hide signature --
 Daisy AU's gear list:Daisy AU's gear list
Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR +8 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Detail Man
Forum ProPosts: 15,000
Like?
Re: Excerpt
In reply to Detail Man, Jun 26, 2013

Simon Joinson wrote:

Discussion of Moderation policies, rules and interpretation is perfectly acceptable, and is one of the ways we refine and if necessary change our rules and policies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50509430

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Richard Franiec
Senior MemberPosts: 2,212Gear list
Like?
Re: Excerpt
In reply to Detail Man, Jun 26, 2013

Detail Man wrote:

Simon Joinson wrote:

Discussion of Moderation policies, rules and interpretation is perfectly acceptable, and is one of the ways we refine and if necessary change our rules and policies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50509430

This is a very significant and foreseeing statement. Please, don't give any hints that you are dissatisfied with particular moderator . The trap is waiting for you (see forum rule #3). If discussing the moderation and especially, interpretation of policies are in fact allowed and acceptable, I would like to ask if establishing the particular brand's zealot as a moderator would bring more authenticity to the discussion or hamper it. That's all.

Sincerely

RichardF

 Richard Franiec's gear list:Richard Franiec's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS-1D Mark IV Canon EOS-1D X Canon EOS M Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
AllMankind
Contributing MemberPosts: 564
Like?
Re: DPR is misguided
In reply to Biggs23, Jun 26, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

AllMankind wrote:

In my opinion... (please NOTE I said 'IN MY OPINION')...

a: Moderators should NOT be allowed to post comments as regular USERS.

b: Every moderator should have TWO accounts. Their Moderator account, and a regular user account.

c: If logged in as a moderator, a moderator should MODERATE and not be allowed to post user comments. If a mod wants to post comments, he/she MUST login as a regular user.

d: When logged in as a USER a moderator would NOT have any moderator powers and would not even be identified as a moderator.

Thus doubling the amount of work required for basic moderation tasks. To have such a requirement would severely decrease the ability of moderators to enjoy forums. As volunteers that seems like an added burden which would serve very little purpose.

e: No moderator should be allowed to moderate any thread in which he/she has posted as a user.

Consider that we are just normal users. I don't usually open threads that aren't of interest to me. So if I can't moderate threads I find interesting and want to participate in, and I don't open threads that aren't interesting to me, what is left for me to do?

In these two statements I think you have just outlined everything that is WRONG with the way DPR has implemented moderation and why it is misguided.

Does the term 'Conflict of Interest' mean anything to you?

Or perhaps the phrese 'You can't have your cake and eat it too.'

f: No thread/post should be deleted unless agreed to by admin. In other words, no moderator should have the power to delete a thread or post without approval of DPR admin.

g: No moderator should have the power to ban a user. Again, the banning of a user should require admin approval and NOT be the sole discression of a single moderator.

If you don't trust them to make decisions why have them at all?

I do NOT trust their decisions based on current history of mod actions/comments.

By thier heavy handed and often biased approach to moderation, the moderators have lost my trust and respect.

Since moderation has been introduced, DPR has become massively OVER MODERATED. This is wrong and massively misguided.

Compared to what it was before I would argue that it's a massive improvement. I may, admittedly, be biased.

And as a moderator you should not be allowed the luxury of being biased.

-- hide signature --

Oppose Tyranny in all its forms.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Detail Man
Forum ProPosts: 15,000
Like?
Re: Excerpt
In reply to Richard Franiec, Jun 26, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Simon Joinson wrote:

Discussion of Moderation policies, rules and interpretation is perfectly acceptable, and is one of the ways we refine and if necessary change our rules and policies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50509430

This is a very significant and foreseeing statement. Please, don't give any hints that you are dissatisfied with particular moderator. The trap is waiting for you (see forum rule #3).

I have for some time taken an interest in matters surrounding moderation on DPReview forums (before and after the utilization of DPReview members acting as unpaid volunteers). While you can find me offering my personal opinions to the Editor in Chief regarding such issues, you will also find that my postings are not personalized towards, or prejudicial to, any individual unpaid volunteers who have themselves chosen to act on behalf of DPR management without monetary compensation. The nature of my interest relates specifically to how DPReview members/readers are affected.

If discussing the moderation and especially, interpretation of policies are in fact allowed and acceptable, I would like to ask if establishing the particular brand's zealot as a moderator would bring more authenticity to the discussion or hamper it. That's all.

My own personal opinion is that "zealotry" in all manner and forms would be prudent to avoid.

It is DPReview management's choice to utilize unpaid volunteers as opposed to utilizing paid staff members for the purposes of forum "moderation". It seems that everything carries something of a "price". Volunteer labor lacks true accountability. What members/readers need is accountability.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Richard Franiec
Senior MemberPosts: 2,212Gear list
Like?
Re: Excerpt
In reply to Detail Man, Jun 26, 2013

Detail Man wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Simon Joinson wrote:

Discussion of Moderation policies, rules and interpretation is perfectly acceptable, and is one of the ways we refine and if necessary change our rules and policies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50509430

This is a very significant and foreseeing statement. Please, don't give any hints that you are dissatisfied with particular moderator. The trap is waiting for you (see forum rule #3).

I have for some time taken an interest in matters surrounding moderation on DPReview forums (before and after the utilization of DPReview members acting as unpaid volunteers). While you can find me offering my personal opinions to the Editor in Chief regarding such issues, you will also find that my postings are not personalized towards, or prejudicial to, any individual unpaid volunteers who have themselves chosen to act on behalf of DPR management without monetary compensation. The nature of my interest relates specifically to how DPReview members/readers are affected.

I'm sure that your intentions as described are genuine. At the same time I appreciate your wits to find important bits leading to better understanding how "the things works". Sometimes this could be inspirational. There is no need for explanations past your first paragraph. We all have different views and understandings, hopefully respected by everyone.

If discussing the moderation and especially, interpretation of policies are in fact allowed and acceptable, I would like to ask if establishing the particular brand's zealot as a moderator would bring more authenticity to the discussion or hamper it. That's all.

My own personal opinion is that "zealotry" in all manner and forms would be prudent to avoid.

It is DPReview management's choice to utilize unpaid volunteers as opposed to utilizing paid staff members for the purposes of forum "moderation". It seems that everything carries something of a "price". Volunteer labor lacks true accountability. What members/readers need is accountability

Below are my remarks despite misleading red color:

Your last two sentences says it all. The rest is immaterial, no matter how you drape it.

Best

Richard

 Richard Franiec's gear list:Richard Franiec's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS-1D Mark IV Canon EOS-1D X Canon EOS M Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lenshoarder
Contributing MemberPosts: 599
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to quadrox, Jun 26, 2013

2. If you have an issue related to a moderator you feel strongly about then the ONLY legitimate ways to deal with it are either PM the moderator in reasonably civil terms and explain your position or contact an administrator using Feedback. That's all there is. Any public attacks or multiple personal messages threatening or abusing moderators will at best get you ignored and at worst banned.

This doesn't work.  I saw a moderator act with less decorum than I felt a moderator should in an official moderator action, the action had no impact on me, and submitted feedback to an administrator.  Never heard a word back.  It's just a black hole.  I do remember this policy from when community moderation was inacted as a safeguard.  It was to have been supervised community moderation.  I guess the supervision part of the community moderation was never implemented.

In my experience on various forums, community moderation doesn't work.  There are users and there are moderators.  It seldom works when the two are the same person.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
gloaming
Contributing MemberPosts: 675
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 26, 2013

I submitted a complaint directly via the feedback link at the bottom of every page on Sunday, and it happens to be about moderation.   I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Olga Johnson
Forum ProPosts: 21,713Gear list
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to v steffel, Jun 26, 2013

v steffel wrote:

I will say that what I disliked is deleting threads or segments of thread because we now lack the evidence to prove our points of such action. Websites, in one sense, are modern archives.

A deleted post or thread is still visible to moderators and admins.  So don't think that your evidence is gone.  It is still there for Admins to review.

-- hide signature --

Olga

 Olga Johnson's gear list:Olga Johnson's gear list
Canon EOS 60D Canon EOS 650D Canon EOS M Canon EOS 100D Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Detail Man
Forum ProPosts: 15,000
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to Olga Johnson, Jun 26, 2013

Olga Johnson wrote:

v steffel wrote:

I will say that what I disliked is deleting threads or segments of thread because we now lack the evidence to prove our points of such action. Websites, in one sense, are modern archives.

A deleted post or thread is still visible to moderators and admins. So don't think that your evidence is gone. It is still there for Admins to review.

However, the information of interest is removed from the "public domain" for all to see and to refer to. It seems to me that if members are to be convinced that "secret courts" (so to speak) will in actual fact convene and consider their grievances and concerns, they would need a bona fide and verifiable process that goes beyond merely submitting a message to a web-link receiving thousands of all manner of inquiries all the time (where it is not known if the message will be read and considered).

They would need an assurance that their issue raised will indeed be read, considered, and subsequently answered by a member of the DPR staff (not unpaid volunteers). This could easily be accomplished by providing a separate "feedback-moderation" destination that would be assured to result in a written response of some sort from an identifiable person - providing true accountability.

Even if such a response was an automated message addressing their stated grievance or concern, people would at least know that the issue raised had actually been in some manner considered.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
edispics
Senior MemberPosts: 1,475
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to quadrox, Jun 26, 2013

You guys are probably doing a load of good that I am not even aware of right now

Just as a point of reference. If anyone would like to see what happens when you don't have mods, just head over to http://www.bgr.com - the site iteself is ok - mainstream mobile news. Click on Blackberry and take a look at any article there and then click on comments. The comments are extensive and about 95% of the time consist of personal attacks, the most colorful swearing imaginable, made up facts and just general, all-consuming nastiness. Some might find in entertaining at first, but there is no real discourse, no exchange of useful information, just endless fighting. Also, it is populated by a small group of self absorbed narcissists who dominate the comments. It is rare to see a new nick.

So, in comparison, I have no doubt whatsoever about the good the mods are doing. Nothing and no one is perfect, but when I use BGR comments as a reference point, DPR is actually a pretty pleasant and fair place to be; it gets tiring being up to your eyeballs in poo on a non stop basis in non moderated forums.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
John Marsh
Regular MemberPosts: 325Gear list
Like?
Re: Excerpt
In reply to Detail Man, Jun 26, 2013

Detail Man wrote:

............. What members/readers need is accountability.

Accountability owed to readers should be directly proportional to the price they pay for the service.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DonA2
Senior MemberPosts: 2,066Gear list
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to lenshoarder, Jun 26, 2013

lenshoarder wrote:

In my experience on various forums, community moderation doesn't work. There are users and there are moderators. It seldom works when the two are the same person.

Your statement should read, "there are users and abusers".  All societies require policing because of abusers.  Moderation does work for the good of the vast majority.  If you are one of the minority you are best to conform or live with disillusionment.

 DonA2's gear list:DonA2's gear list
Canon PowerShot S2 IS Canon PowerShot SX10 IS Canon PowerShot S100 Canon PowerShot SX40 HS
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
AllMankind
Contributing MemberPosts: 564
Like?
Wrong (nt)
In reply to DonA2, Jun 26, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

In my experience on various forums, community moderation doesn't work. There are users and there are moderators. It seldom works when the two are the same person.

Your statement should read, "there are users and abusers". All societies require policing because of abusers. Moderation does work for the good of the vast majority. If you are one of the minority you are best to conform or live with disillusionment.

-- hide signature --

Oppose Tyranny in all its forms.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
biggib
Contributing MemberPosts: 690
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to DonA2, Jun 26, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

In my experience on various forums, community moderation doesn't work. There are users and there are moderators. It seldom works when the two are the same person.

Your statement should read, "there are users and abusers". All societies require policing because of abusers.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, though?

Moderation does work for the good of the vast majority.

And you'd know exactly how?

If you are one of the minority you are best to conform or live with disillusionment.

Er, probably you'd like to rephrase that?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
illy
Forum ProPosts: 12,160Gear list
Like?
Re: Excerpt
In reply to Detail Man, Jun 26, 2013

Detail Man wrote:

Simon Joinson wrote:

Discussion of Moderation policies, rules and interpretation is perfectly acceptable, and is one of the ways we refine and if necessary change our rules and policies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50509430

as long as it has no references specific moderation actions.

-- hide signature --

©

 illy's gear list:illy's gear list
Nikon D200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Nikon D5100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Great Bustard
Forum ProPosts: 23,492
Like?
Re: Excerpt
In reply to illy, Jun 26, 2013

illy wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Simon Joinson wrote:

Discussion of Moderation policies, rules and interpretation is perfectly acceptable, and is one of the ways we refine and if necessary change our rules and policies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50509430

as long as it has no references specific moderation actions.

Can you give an example? 

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lenshoarder
Contributing MemberPosts: 599
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to DonA2, Jun 26, 2013

DonA2 wrote:

lenshoarder wrote:

In my experience on various forums, community moderation doesn't work. There are users and there are moderators. It seldom works when the two are the same person.

Your statement should read, "there are users and abusers". All societies require policing because of abusers. Moderation does work for the good of the vast majority. If you are one of the minority you are best to conform or live with disillusionment.

No.  My statement stands.  You're statement is besides the point.  Users should not be moderators and moderators should not be users.  I suggested that if a user is to be a moderator then they should only moderate forums they don't participate in.  Anything else doesn't work.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
lenshoarder
Contributing MemberPosts: 599
Like?
Re: About moderation - Feedback
In reply to gloaming, Jun 26, 2013

gloaming wrote:

I submitted a complaint directly via the feedback link at the bottom of every page on Sunday, and it happens to be about moderation. I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement.

Welcome to the club.  The way DPR is right now, the community moderators are the first and last word.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads