New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1

Started Jun 22, 2013 | Discussions
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
Jun 22, 2013

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm X-M1
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
smallLebowski
Contributing MemberPosts: 556
Like?
Re: Ok, does it have this?
In reply to captura, Jun 22, 2013

1. PDAF?

2. New CMOS X Trans II sensor like in x100s? Or it has older one?

3. What will be the price?

4. Will it be same slow-ish as current XE1 (I mean issues like a 2sec delay after taking a picture and been able to view it, and so on - operating speed in general?

As I see it - it is a good alternative to NEX-5R. However, still lack of grip on body is a bad thing in my opinion - I do prefer a grip of 5R.

Then again, if it will be priced at the same level as 5R - it will be a hit.

What about the lens - will FUJI keep the same IQ they are famous of or will lower standards for keeping price low?

P.S. It's kind of funny, but I just realized that there is simply no alternative to NEX if one wants an APS-C size sensor and compactness all in one body.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
Re: Ok, does it have this?
In reply to smallLebowski, Jun 22, 2013

smallLebowski wrote:

1. PDAF?

2. New CMOS X Trans II sensor like in x100s? Or it has older one?

3. What will be the price?

4. Will it be same slow-ish as current XE1 (I mean issues like a 2sec delay after taking a picture and been able to view it, and so on - operating speed in general?

As I see it - it is a good alternative to NEX-5R. However, still lack of grip on body is a bad thing in my opinion - I do prefer a grip of 5R.

Then again, if it will be priced at the same level as 5R - it will be a hit.

What about the lens - will FUJI keep the same IQ they are famous of or will lower standards for keeping price low?

P.S. It's kind of funny, but I just realized that there is simply no alternative to NEX if one wants an APS-C size sensor and compactness all in one body.

Too soon to know, since it has not been announced yet.

Reportedly the Trans II sensors have a problem with artefacts.

XE-1's are fixed now with a firmware update. If can you believe that.

"Then again, if it will be priced at the same level as 5R - it will be a hit." - The competition is the 5R and the E-PL5, very similar specifications, and touchscreen. Assuming that this newest Fuji also has a touchscreen, the 3 cameras should end up being priced very closely.

The grip: a lot of the cameras don't have grips, and the E-PL5 has a removable grip. Especially the ergonomics of the expensive OMD E-M5 really suck. Sony NEX rules the ergonomics waves.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Astrophotographer 10
Senior MemberPosts: 4,730Gear list
Like?
Re: Ok, does it have this?
In reply to captura, Jun 22, 2013

I have not seen anywhere the Xtrans 11 has artifacts problems. Do you have a link? X100s has Xtrans 11 and its a wonderful sensor. The best IQ I have seen so far from a mirrorless.

On a previous thread it was reported XM1 has no PDAF. Makes sense, to use the XE1/Xpro 1 sensor to reduce costs. Hopefully the new XPro 2 has a newer sensor not just Xtrans 11 in X100s and Nex 6. That would separate the models even more.

AF on XE1 is not much different to AF on Nex 6. Nex 6 is a bit better (faster, more reliable) but not much in it. Hardly a deal breaker. AF on X100s is better and probably about the same as Nex 6 so perhaps the more powerful processor of the X100s makes its way into this XM1. Also if the nice manual focusing aids in the X100s make their way into the XM1. That is a big plus for the Nex 6 over the XE1  - focus peaking. It makes a world of difference when using manual focus lenses.

Interesting to see the size difference. Wow, its way smaller than XE1. As you say that makes it similar in size to Nex 5/6.

Nex cameras are great - I have a Nex 6 but at the end of the day its image quality that counts and Fuji X has that over Nex. There is a noticeable difference and Nex lags Fuji in this regard. I have both and using good glass narrows the gap but Fuji have nailed white balance, colour and the jpeg engine so well and the no AA filter adds a bit of sharpness. Again, not huge,  more in the colour richness and a little bit sharper. A bit like the difference between a nice lens and a Zeiss lens.

As far as form factor goes I think this XM1 will feel a lot nicer than Nex body which is a bit cheap feeling in some ways. The buttons and control dials are very very cheap on Nex and the menu system - well.... Fuji menus are well thought out and intuitive.

I personally like the mode dial and think this is a plus. I find setting modes on the XE1 difficult and confusing and somewhat hidden in turn this to this whilst turning this switch off type of thing. Reminiscent of earlier iddly Japanese products like clocks that are impossible to adjust (hold down this button for 2 seconds then turn this to the right type of menu).

Greg.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Bernie Ess
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,928Gear list
Like?
Can you explain?
In reply to captura, Jun 22, 2013
Reportedly the Trans II sensors have a problem with artefacts.

XE-1's are fixed now with a firmware update. If can you believe that.

What reports do you have? Can you name them?

Noone knows what the firmware update will bring: It might just add support for new lenses (without aperture ring). What "fix" were you talking about?

Bernie

-- hide signature --

'All the technique in the world doesn’t compensate for the inability to notice.' (Elliot Erwitt)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
spacemn
Senior MemberPosts: 1,135
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to captura, Jun 23, 2013

captura wrote:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

It looks like a worthy 5R competitor indeed, and very nice looking too. I wonder what the display res is like though. It would be a let down if its like the 3N/XE-1 (460K).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
Re: Can you explain?
In reply to Bernie Ess, Jun 23, 2013

Not X-E1.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to spacemn, Jun 23, 2013

spacemn wrote:

captura wrote:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

It looks like a worthy 5R competitor indeed, and very nice looking too. I wonder what the display res is like though. It would be a let down if its like the 3N/XE-1 (460K).

I'm sure not like the 3N, they wouldn't be so stupid.

THE BIGGEST THING COULD BE: No need for an anti-aliasing filter. (just as in other recent cameras from Fuji.) That plus superior Fuji lenses could push them to #1 in this segment.

- Too soon to tell yet, hasn't been announced yet.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
Re: Ok, does it have this?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Jun 23, 2013

Greg, I posted a long answer a while a ago, and then it disappeared.

So this will be brief;

"I have not seen anywhere the Xtrans 11 has artifacts problems. Do you have a link? X100s has Xtrans 11 and its a wonderful sensor. The best IQ I have seen so far from a mirrorless.

On a previous thread it was reported XM1 has no PDAF. Makes sense, to use the XE1/Xpro 1 sensor to reduce costs. Hopefully the new XPro 2 has a newer sensor not just Xtrans 11 in X100s and Nex 6. That would separate the models even more."

Answer:

A: No artefact problems with XE1 and X-Pro1:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/fujifilm-x-e1_Digital-Camera_review

"Fujifilm X-E1: Features."

One of the things that most impressed us about the X-Pro1 was its APS-C sized X-Trans CMOS sensor, and the good news is that the X-E1 uses the very same chip. Fuji’s X-Trans sensor differs from regular CMOS sensors in that it uses a unique colour filter arrangement. While the majority of CMOS sensors employ a traditional Bayer filter array to decode colour information, one inherent problem with the Bayer arrangement is that it produces undesirable aliasing effects such as moiré patterning. This problem has traditionally been solved by placing an anti-aliasing filter in front of the sensor, which eliminates the artefacts but results in a minor loss of critical sharpness. Fuji’s X-Trans sensor, however, uses a unique array of red, green and blue pixels that aren’t arranged in a repetitive order. This allows the sensor to minimize moiré and false colour without the need for an anti-aliasing filter, which in turn delivers noticeably sharper images.

Elsewhere, the XE-1 shares the same dual-core EXR Pro image processor that’s used in the X-Pro1, with a standard ISO range that runs from 200-6400, but which can be further expanded to an ISO equivalent of 100-25,600. Continuous shooting speed clocks in at 6fps, although this can be lowered to 3fps should that be preferable."

B: Artefact problems existed with G10 (white orbs) and with X100. New models G20 and X100s have solved this while offering improved imaging due to elimination of the anti-aliasing (Bayer) filter.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
Re: Can you explain?
In reply to Bernie Ess, Jun 23, 2013
 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
Re: DPR's Fujifilm X-M1 Hands-on Preview
In reply to captura, Jun 25, 2013
 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
nevercat
Senior MemberPosts: 3,104
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to captura, Jun 25, 2013

captura wrote:

spacemn wrote:

captura wrote:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

It looks like a worthy 5R competitor indeed, and very nice looking too. I wonder what the display res is like though. It would be a let down if its like the 3N/XE-1 (460K).

I'm sure not like the 3N, they wouldn't be so stupid.

THE BIGGEST THING COULD BE: No need for an anti-aliasing filter. (just as in other recent cameras from Fuji.) That plus superior Fuji lenses could push them to #1 in this segment.

- Too soon to tell yet, hasn't been announced yet.

Well it is announced and it has a 9k screen.
But no PDAF AF sensor, no ViewFinder as option, price body only $100,-- more then the  Nex 5 with kit lens, and Fuji is not as present as Sony, Canon or NIkon in most stores, so I doubt it will be a big hit just for the features.

By the way, I think the Fuji looks "old" and the Sony looks sexy.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
evoprox
Senior MemberPosts: 1,122Gear list
Like?
Re: Ok, does it have this?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Jun 25, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

I have not seen anywhere the Xtrans 11 has artifacts problems. Do you have a link? X100s has Xtrans 11 and its a wonderful sensor. The best IQ I have seen so far from a mirrorless.

The best IQ I've personally seen from a mirrorless comes straight out of my NEX-7 - at base ISO and developed from RAW. I've had the XE-1 for four days and for me that was enough to come to a conclusion in that regard, but then I'm not much of a high ISO man.

Nex cameras are great - I have a Nex 6 but at the end of the day its image quality that counts and Fuji X has that over Nex. There is a noticeable difference and Nex lags Fuji in this regard. I have both and using good glass narrows the gap but Fuji have nailed white balance, colour and the jpeg engine so well

Agreed on the jpgs (see above), a Fuji speciality, hard to beat those skin tones, especially those from the Astia simulation, but I personally don't like the Fuji skies. Beeing a RAW shooter I prefer the colors from my 7 and the way AcDSee Pro 6 interprets them, at least as a starting point.

and the no AA filter adds a bit of sharpness. Again, not huge, more in the colour richness and a little bit sharper. A bit like the difference between a nice lens and a Zeiss lens.

As far as form factor goes I think this XM1 will feel a lot nicer than Nex body which is a bit cheap feeling in some ways. The buttons and control dials are very very cheap on Nex and the menu system - well.... Fuji menus are well thought out and intuitive. I personally like the mode dial and think this is a plus.

Couldn't agree more - real camera menus vs. play station chaos and feel. Sony really needs to catch up in this department and provide us NEX shooters with something more intelligent than the current mess. Custom modes are no nice-to-haves but a MUST on a complex camera used for serious shooting. Fuji generously added a 'Quick mode' menu for the X10 along with a firmware upgrade more than half a year after it came out while Sony keeps us waiting and hoping for an adequate menu system for about three years now.

 evoprox's gear list:evoprox's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Fujifilm X-Pro1 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
spacemn
Senior MemberPosts: 1,135
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to nevercat, Jun 25, 2013

nevercat wrote:

captura wrote:

spacemn wrote:

captura wrote:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

It looks like a worthy 5R competitor indeed, and very nice looking too. I wonder what the display res is like though. It would be a let down if its like the 3N/XE-1 (460K).

I'm sure not like the 3N, they wouldn't be so stupid.

THE BIGGEST THING COULD BE: No need for an anti-aliasing filter. (just as in other recent cameras from Fuji.) That plus superior Fuji lenses could push them to #1 in this segment.

- Too soon to tell yet, hasn't been announced yet.

Well it is announced and it has a 9k screen.
But no PDAF AF sensor, no ViewFinder as option, price body only $100,-- more then the Nex 5 with kit lens, and Fuji is not as present as Sony, Canon or NIkon in most stores, so I doubt it will be a big hit just for the features.

By the way, I think the Fuji looks "old" and the Sony looks sexy.

Yes, that's good.

The best thing they have done with this camera is that they have copied the NEX and made it fully operable with one hand, which is one of the best features of the NEX.

It would really be interesting to see if the camera is as responsive and with really low shutter lag like the 5n/r.

Happy days for consumers and the future due to added competition! Exciting to see what Sony comes up with next. A software rehaul and make the cameras smarter to use would be great!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 13,779Gear list
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to captura, Jun 25, 2013

captura wrote:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

My thought is it looks like an expensive competitor with worse specifications than either the 5R or Samsung NX300, but people will buy it because of the Fuji marketing

I imagine it will be a good camera though, and DPR seems to think the focus speed is much improved, at least when using the 16-50mm.

Great to see more of these cameras coming out.  Competition is good for consumers.

Eric

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony Alpha 7R Samsung NX1 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake Samsung NX 85mm F1.4 ED SSA Samsung NX 60mm F2.8 Macro ED OIS SSA +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
docvale
Regular MemberPosts: 196Gear list
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to viking79, Jun 25, 2013

viking79 wrote:

My thought is it looks like an expensive competitor with worse specifications than either the 5R or Samsung NX300, but people will buy it because of the Fuji marketing

Fuji marketing is very well conceived. The retro style reminds people about Leica, so Fuji became the new Leica Then, they say they're the only one to get the real colors...

I have to say it looks great, specially when dressed with its original half case. But you're right, on paper, even if several months younger, it still looks behind the Nex5R. At the moment it's also $200 more expensive, and the new lenses, despite rated as entry level, aren't cheap at all.

But I expect to be successful.

I imagine it will be a good camera though, and DPR seems to think the focus speed is much improved, at least when using the 16-50mm.

Great to see more of these cameras coming out. Competition is good for consumers.

Eric

Agreed. I think it will be good, it may be "eligible" for an external EVF and maybe third party (affordable) lenses might come.

 docvale's gear list:docvale's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-5N Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
spacemn
Senior MemberPosts: 1,135
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to spacemn, Jun 25, 2013

Hmm, the Fuji 16-50 lens is plastic barrel AND mount.

I think that the SEL1650PZ is one of the most interesting kit lenses out there. If sony could just replace og release that high quality zoom and kit it with the next 7, then the NEX would have a good if not better counterpart to the Fuji 18-55/2.8-4

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Just Having Fun
Senior MemberPosts: 3,869
Like?
The real question is...
In reply to nevercat, Jun 25, 2013

nevercat wrote:

captura wrote:

spacemn wrote:

captura wrote:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

It looks like a worthy 5R competitor indeed, and very nice looking too. I wonder what the display res is like though. It would be a let down if its like the 3N/XE-1 (460K).

I'm sure not like the 3N, they wouldn't be so stupid.

THE BIGGEST THING COULD BE: No need for an anti-aliasing filter. (just as in other recent cameras from Fuji.) That plus superior Fuji lenses could push them to #1 in this segment.

- Too soon to tell yet, hasn't been announced yet.

Well it is announced and it has a 9k screen.
But no PDAF AF sensor...

Not if is has PDAF on sensor, but if it focuses faster and more accurately than the NEX 5R.  We will have to wait and see.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,616Gear list
Like?
Re: New 5R competitor, Fuji XM-1
In reply to viking79, Jun 25, 2013

viking79 wrote:

captura wrote:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-fuji-x-m1-images-leaked/comment-page-2/#comment-52500

Much smaller than XE-1 and XP-PRO,

http://i.imgur.com/nAZdVyh.jpg

"And here it is the new entry level Fuji X-M1 (images via Digicaminfo). As we “rumored” before the camera has no viewfinder, a titling screen and there is the new 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 and 27mm f/2.8 lens. The camera, lens, the 27mm pancake and the new X PRO 1 and X-E1 firmware update will be announced on June 25."

My thought is it looks like an expensive competitor with worse specifications than either the 5R or Samsung NX300, but people will buy it because of the Fuji marketing

I imagine it will be a good camera though, and DPR seems to think the focus speed is much improved, at least when using the 16-50mm.

Great to see more of these cameras coming out. Competition is good for consumers.

Eric

Hi Eric,

In some stores, the Fuju X-Pro 1 and XE1 have been outselling all the NEX cameras. It seems that some folks with bigger wallets, really appreciate The Fuj's lens quality over NEX.

However, the XM-1 has cheapened it's lenses, looking at the specs.

Steve

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads