X10 vs X20 !

Started Jun 14, 2013 | Discussions
focalphotography
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X10 vs X20 !
Jun 14, 2013

I've been looking at either a x10 or x20, the review on dp review has got my lost now.
With only a 1% score improvement and also the x10 getting better scores for low light and lens quality I can't see any reason for getting a x20 unless you guys have.....

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Keit ll
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to focalphotography, Jun 14, 2013

This is one of the problems with DPR , they tend to refer to current models when judging standards so past scores are of limited use.

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Keith C

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Ybor
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to focalphotography, Jun 14, 2013

I thought the X10 was great and I used exclusively for black & white shooting in good light. I never had to deal with the infamous orb problem.

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tomhongkong
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to Ybor, Jun 14, 2013

I only have an X10 so cannot compare properly, but have been keeping close tabs on the posts and samples, to decide if I should upgrade.

First, the lens is the same so far as I know and has been reported.

The big advantage of the X20 are that there is information shown in the viewfinder (focus point, speed, etc) and focus is faster (not that I find the X10 to be bad)

The IQ is a mixed picture.  In 12 Mp mode, there have been some some criticisms of X20 JPEGS as being mushy compared with X10 (over enthusiastic NR), although many reviewers do not comment on this.  Otherwise in JPEG it seems pretty equal with the edge to X20.  The X20 is better in RAW than X10 with older versions of LR, but newer versions even up the playing field a bit.  Overall my take is that the X20 provides slightly better IQ than X10 in 12 MP mode.

However X10 has a trick up its sleeve, in 6MP mode, thanks to some very clever hardware, it can give probably about 2.7 stops more DR if set properly (approaching DSLR DR).

So maybe IQ is about an equal match

Because of the added complication of X10 settings to use the EXR hardware, it is more complicated to get the best out of it

If you are comparing images you need to be sure you are comparing like with like, e.g. JPEG with JPEG, 12MP with 12MP, etc.  Many of the posts here do not do this clearly and are quite confusing

Hopefully someone with both can give you better information than I can

tom

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nspur
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to focalphotography, Jun 14, 2013

I have both X10 and X20. Apart from having the same excellent lens and the same sized sensor and largely the same buttons they are really quite different.

The X10 has the Fuji EXR sensor with a headline resolution of 12 megapixels. This was developed to allow for greater dynamic range than a standard sensor and to do that you should shoot in medium resolution which drops the resolution to 6 megapixels - still enough for a large print. Many users choose to set the sensitivity to Auto ISO 3200 and set dynamic range to 400% and the mode dial to A so that you choose the aperture and the metering system chooses the shutter speed. In this mode you can shoot in low light and get excellent results.

The X20 has a Fuji X-Trans sensor that's the same type as in the X-Pro1, X-E1 and X100s. It has a lot of improvements over the X10 and to get the best out of it you shoot at the full 12 megapixel resolution. If you like to use a viewfinder, the X10 one has no information in it (it's just a zooming optical VF showing 85% of the picture you will take). The X20 VF has information in it that basically lets the user alter the shot parameters without removing the camera from the eye. So if you use manual modes the X20 is a better bet for you. If you shoot mainly jpegs (i.e. not RAW) the software will at high ISO try to reduce noise. The results are comparable with cameras in the same market segment (actually better than most) but the difference between a jpeg at ISO 3200 with the two cameras is that the X10 at 6 megapixel resolution is clearer. Only pixel peepers make a fuss about this.

There is a big price difference between the two and the X10 is a real bargain. One thing to bear in mind is that Fuji is unlikely to issue any firmware updates for the X10 but may well do so for the X20.

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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to focalphotography, Jun 15, 2013

I would agree with NSpur.  Either are great cameras, but different engines in the same body behind the same lens, and the lens is fabulous.  Right now, X10's can be had at bargain prices.  X20's are pretty mcuh regular retail as they are the current model.  The info in the finder is a nice upgrade over the 10, and I like the expanded selection in the art filters (specifically the Soft Focus as it's hard to find many filters in 40mm) and the expanded choices in the film sims (although I do hope they one day manage to REALLY replicate Velvia, it's not there yet . . . . ).

Hard to go wrong with either one, but they are different.  For me, the 20 is a companion to the 10, not its' replacement.  Now if Fuji would make an X-S2 with X20 guts . . . . . but then, I want them to make an X100 with an equivalent zoom to the X10/20, or at least that lens to fit an XPro.  Oh well . . . .

All the Best,

JW

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Trevor G
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Re: X10 vs X20: 2EV of highlight headroom, not necessarily dynamic range
In reply to tomhongkong, Jun 15, 2013

tomhongkong wrote:

However X10 has a trick up its sleeve, in 6MP mode, thanks to some very clever hardware, it can give probably about 2.7 stops more DR if set properly (approaching DSLR DR).

So maybe IQ is about an equal match

It's not really an extra 2 to 2.7EV of dynamic range (which is what DR normally refers to).

It's an extra 2 to 2.7EV of highlight headroom, detail above 0EV which would otherwise be clipped or crushed away when not using RAW.

You really only get a "clean" 2EV of highlight headroom when you use RAW.  When using JPEGs the upper 1.5 EV of highlight headroom is crushed into the last 0.3EV of JPEG "space" before clipping sets in around0 to +0.3EV.

That means that, even when using a good JPEG engine with highlgiht recovery, such as in Adobe products, you still cannot get back a "clean" or accurate 1.5EV of upper highlights out of a JPEG using DR400 because of the non-linear compression which is used.  In other words, colours will be inaccurate.

I have various posts over the last 18 months which illustrate this.

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Trevor G
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Trevor G
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to nspur, Jun 15, 2013

nspur wrote:

There is a big price difference between the two and the X10 is a real bargain. One thing to bear in mind is that Fuji is unlikely to issue any firmware updates for the X10 but may well do so for the X20.

The X10 has had at least 3 firmware updates, and the X20 has had one so far

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Trevor G
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tomhongkong
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Re: X10 vs X20: 2EV of highlight headroom, not necessarily dynamic range
In reply to Trevor G, Jun 15, 2013

Trevor

I agree I used the wrong term and should have said EV.  I had a mental block at that moment and could not think of the right expression. (Old age creeps up!)

I think you are also making the point with your explanation that comparisons are not easy for the less experienced.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the X10 in M EXR DR mode has a wider DR than the X20, though, so the IQ is pretty balanced between the cameras, depending on how you use them

tom

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Tom Schum
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to Gaijin Tourist, Jun 15, 2013

I own an X10 (early production; I refused to upgrade sensor).

Comparing the best I can do with my X10 at its maximum resolution, it seems to me the X20 makes a better large print.  I've downloaded and printed X20 sample shots at 13"x19" to get some idea of how the two compare.

My X10 struggles a little at that print size.

I have an X-E1 now, but the X10 comes out to play now and then.

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flashbang
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to Gaijin Tourist, Jun 15, 2013

I just ordered a used X10 on line;  looks like I got a pretty good deal.  I picked it mostly because have used Leica RF’s professionally for 30+ years and the X10 is about as close to the look and feel of the Leica as I want to get without taking out a second mortgage for one of Leica’s pseudo RF looking, ridiculously overpriced cameras.

My .02 on the subject.

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Photography has been going downhill since Kodak stopped making Panatomic-X.........

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evoprox
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to flashbang, Jun 15, 2013

flashbang wrote:

I just ordered a used X10 on line; looks like I got a pretty good deal. I picked it mostly because have used Leica RF’s professionally for 30+ years and the X10 is about as close to the look and feel of the Leica as I want to get without taking out a second mortgage for one of Leica’s pseudo RF looking, ridiculously overpriced cameras.

My .02 on the subject.

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Photography has been going downhill since Kodak stopped making Panatomic-X.........

Congrats. I've no experience with digital Ms but have owned a number of film Leicas. Even though the X10 doesn't get nowwhere near the DR of B&W film I love to shoot B&W with it and have printed a good number of carefully PPed images from the X10 up to 18*24 and some even larger. Regarding B&W prints I go as far as I would go with prints from 24x36 negatives. It's a different thing with color images from the X10 though. Looking forward to see some of your results.

Cheers, Ken

Shot this morning:

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ryan2007
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to focalphotography, Jun 16, 2013

focalphotography wrote:

I've been looking at either a x10 or x20, the review on dp review has got my lost now.
With only a 1% score improvement and also the x10 getting better scores for low light and lens quality I can't see any reason for getting a x20 unless you guys have.....

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Chris Middleton & Vanessa Le Luan
http://www.focal-photography.com

If you are brand new to Fuji the X20 is a good first choice. If you are ready to spend $600 and can save a bit more Fuji XE-1 and Xpro-1 are on sale/promotion with lenses bought at the same time till 6/29/13

I had ZERO interest in Fuji till about a month ago when I needed a high end compact. Fuji X20, X100s and Nikon A is what I decided to look for. I already had the Panasonic GH-3 system for Micro Four Thirds.

I got the X20 because I wanted a zoom, looked past the larger sensor and i already had an interchangeable lens system.

After using the X20 I was really impressed which lead me to look at the Fuji XE or Xpro. I decided to wait and keep my GH-3.

NOW Fuji starts this AMAZING promotion and only having the GH-3 for a few months, great 2.8 lenses $$$$ I decided to switch for Two reasons. The quality of Fuji output looks like Film if done correctly. The Fuji X promotion Oh, and the advice from B&H Photo when I asked about Fuji, Olympus and Panasonic which has better optics and I agree Fuji.

Their is more to consider with Fuji X stuff so I'll stop here. Everything has pluses and minuses and is a subjective choice that took me some time to really pull that trigger so soon.

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Davidgilmour
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to ryan2007, Jun 16, 2013

ryan2007 wrote:

focalphotography wrote:

I've been looking at either a x10 or x20, the review on dp review has got my lost now.
With only a 1% score improvement and also the x10 getting better scores for low light and lens quality I can't see any reason for getting a x20 unless you guys have.....

-- hide signature --

Chris Middleton & Vanessa Le Luan
http://www.focal-photography.com

If you are brand new to Fuji the X20 is a good first choice. If you are ready to spend $600 and can save a bit more Fuji XE-1 and Xpro-1 are on sale/promotion with lenses bought at the same time till 6/29/13

I had ZERO interest in Fuji till about a month ago when I needed a high end compact. Fuji X20, X100s and Nikon A is what I decided to look for. I already had the Panasonic GH-3 system for Micro Four Thirds.

I got the X20 because I wanted a zoom, looked past the larger sensor and i already had an interchangeable lens system.

After using the X20 I was really impressed which lead me to look at the Fuji XE or Xpro. I decided to wait and keep my GH-3.

NOW Fuji starts this AMAZING promotion and only having the GH-3 for a few months, great 2.8 lenses $$$$ I decided to switch for Two reasons. The quality of Fuji output looks like Film if done correctly. The Fuji X promotion Oh, and the advice from B&H Photo when I asked about Fuji, Olympus and Panasonic which has better optics and I agree Fuji.

Their is more to consider with Fuji X stuff so I'll stop here. Everything has pluses and minuses and is a subjective choice that took me some time to really pull that trigger so soon.

For me it was an easy choice. The amazing EXR X-10 for €280 versus the new X-20 for €560.

The same IQ for 50% off the price. And I find it very difficult to see difference in pictures I took with my X-100 and X-10 in good light conditions!

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Boxbrownie
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to Davidgilmour, Jun 16, 2013

I was holding off because of the cost also, until I checked on the Fuji refurbished site, open box X20 with new leather case for £399 delivered........why not?

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ryan2007
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to Davidgilmour, Jun 16, 2013

Davidgilmour wrote:

ryan2007 wrote:

focalphotography wrote:

I've been looking at either a x10 or x20, the review on dp review has got my lost now.
With only a 1% score improvement and also the x10 getting better scores for low light and lens quality I can't see any reason for getting a x20 unless you guys have.....

-- hide signature --

Chris Middleton & Vanessa Le Luan
http://www.focal-photography.com

If you are brand new to Fuji the X20 is a good first choice. If you are ready to spend $600 and can save a bit more Fuji XE-1 and Xpro-1 are on sale/promotion with lenses bought at the same time till 6/29/13

I had ZERO interest in Fuji till about a month ago when I needed a high end compact. Fuji X20, X100s and Nikon A is what I decided to look for. I already had the Panasonic GH-3 system for Micro Four Thirds.

I got the X20 because I wanted a zoom, looked past the larger sensor and i already had an interchangeable lens system.

After using the X20 I was really impressed which lead me to look at the Fuji XE or Xpro. I decided to wait and keep my GH-3.

NOW Fuji starts this AMAZING promotion and only having the GH-3 for a few months, great 2.8 lenses $$$$ I decided to switch for Two reasons. The quality of Fuji output looks like Film if done correctly. The Fuji X promotion Oh, and the advice from B&H Photo when I asked about Fuji, Olympus and Panasonic which has better optics and I agree Fuji.

Their is more to consider with Fuji X stuff so I'll stop here. Everything has pluses and minuses and is a subjective choice that took me some time to really pull that trigger so soon.

For me it was an easy choice. The amazing EXR X-10 for €280 versus the new X-20 for €560.

The same IQ for 50% off the price. And I find it very difficult to see difference in pictures I took with my X-100 and X-10 in good light conditions!

IF you can still find the X10, sure why not.

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prime
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to ryan2007, Jun 16, 2013

ryan2007 wrote:

Davidgilmour wrote:

For me it was an easy choice. The amazing EXR X-10 for €280 versus the new X-20 for €560.

The same IQ for 50% off the price. And I find it very difficult to see difference in pictures I took with my X-100 and X-10 in good light conditions!

IF you can still find the X10, sure why not.

Well, you still can find the XF1, which uses the same EXR sensor as the X10, has possibly a better lens with a similar zoom range (though at the long end, the XF1's lens is a bit slower than the X10's lens), and -- with a faster processor than the X10's inside -- focuses and writes to card faster than the X10.  Of course, the XF1 entirely lacks the X10's optical viewfinder.

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evoprox
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to prime, Jun 16, 2013

prime wrote:

ryan2007 wrote:

Davidgilmour wrote:

For me it was an easy choice. The amazing EXR X-10 for €280 versus the new X-20 for €560.

The same IQ for 50% off the price. And I find it very difficult to see difference in pictures I took with my X-100 and X-10 in good light conditions!

IF you can still find the X10, sure why not.

Well, you still can find the XF1, which uses the same EXR sensor as the X10, has possibly a better lens with a similar zoom range (though at the long end, the XF1's lens is a bit slower than the X10's lens), and -- with a faster processor than the X10's inside -- focuses and writes to card faster than the X10. Of course, the XF1 entirely lacks the X10's optical viewfinder.

What makes you think the XF1 has "possibly a better lens" than the X10 ? Better in what regard ? Just curious ...

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prime
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Re: X10 vs X20 !
In reply to evoprox, Jun 16, 2013

evoprox wrote:

What makes you think the XF1 has "possibly a better lens" than the X10 ? Better in what regard ? Just curious ...

The XF1 lens has

  1. Fewer elements (7) than the X10 lens (11) 
  2. In fewer groups  (6) than the X10 lens (9) 
  3. More aspherical elements (3 IIRC) than the X10 lens, and 

4.  More extra low dispersion glass elements (3 IIRC) than the X10 lens

The first two affect the number of occasions for internal reflections in the lens; internal reflections cause flare.

The latter two reflect the sophistication of the lens design.

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prime
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More complete answer: XF1 lens compared to X20 lens
In reply to prime, Jun 16, 2013

I wrote:

The XF1 lens has

  1. Fewer elements (7) than the X10 lens (11)
  2. In fewer groups (6) than the X10 lens (9)

More aspherical elements (3 IIRC) than the X10 lens

The XF1 lens has FOUR aspherical elements vs. THREE aspherical elements in the lens of the X20. Specifically, here is what the Fujifilm website has to say:

X20:

All-glass 9-groups/11-elements Configuration - Obsessed with Excellence -
In order to maintain the FUJIFILM X20's compact shell whilst ensuring high image quality, Fujinon has adopted lenses made of glass with superior optical characteristics for all elements in the 9-groups/11-elements configuration. The design incorporates an arrangement of aspheric lenses, ED lenses and high-refractive index lenses, and are treated with Fujinon's originally developed Super EBC (Electron Beam Coating).

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x20/features/page_05.html

9 groups 11 lenses (3 aspherical glass molded lenses included)

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x20/specifications/

XF1:

All glass 6 groups/7 elements Configuration - 4 aspherical and 3 extra low dispersion lenses -
The slim-line lens achieves its aperture of f/1.8 with a construction that features 7 lens elements in 6 groups (4 aspherical and 3 extra low dispersion lenses)
Lens Construction
By using 4 high-performance aspherical lenses, the FUJIFILM XF1 delivers sharp image quality with rich resolution. These lenses also contribute to a more compact overall lens configuration.

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_xf1/features/page_02.html

4. More extra low dispersion glass elements (3 IIRC) than the X10 lens

The XF1 lens incorporates THREE ED elements (among its seven elements) while the lens on the X10 & X20 incorporates TWO ED elements (among its eleven elements):

XF1:

3 ED lenses have been employed for their low dispersion and effective reduction of chromatic aberrations. By preventing color fringing and reducing contrast, the FUJIFILM XF1 lens captures images with superb accuracy across the zoom range from wide angle to telephoto.

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_xf1/features/page_02.html

X10:

ED Lens - Removing All Color Fringing Even at High Magnification -
Two ED lenses have been employed for their low dispersion and effective reduction of chromatic aberrations. By preventing color fringing and reducing contrast, the X10 lens captures images with superb accuracy across the zoom range from wide angle to telephoto.

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x10/features/

In addition, it appears that the XF1 uses a later generation of the EBC technology than the X10 and X20 do:

X20:

The design incorporates an arrangement of aspheric lenses, ED lenses and high-refractive index lenses, and are treated with Fujinon's originally developed Super EBC (Electron Beam Coating).

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x20/features/page_05.html

XF1:

High-Transmittance EBC
High Transmittance EBC (Electron Beam Coating) is FUJINON's unique wide-band technology developed for FUJINON broadcast-use lenses. The XF1 is the first compact camera to use the High Transmittance EBC for double sides of all glass lenses. Because highly refractive glass bends light rays more sharply than conventional optical glass, it creates greater potential for reflections which can cause ghosting and flare. HT-EBC technology effectively minimizes this stray light, assuring sharp, clear images under even the most demanding conditions.

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_xf1/features/page_02.html

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