The Amazing D200.

Started Jun 13, 2013 | Discussions
Trevor G
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,473Gear list
Like?
Re: Scientists not convinced by CMOS develop Scientific-cmos
In reply to Tidewater, Jul 25, 2013

Tidewater wrote:

Seems to me the CMOS is for speed as in video recording. As soon as they started to offer video in regular cameras they all went to cmos. Chicken or Egg??

Correct.

I can show at the 2/3" sensor level, as used by the CCD Fuji S100fs bridge cam and the CMOS Fuji X10 EXR sensor cam and the CMOS Fuji X20 X-Trans sensor cam that the 2008 S100fs out-resolves/reveals finer detail than the 2011 X10.

I haven't done the same test with the 2013 X20 yet, and I am not sure which way it will go because the X20 is sharp and shows a lot more detail than the X10.

However, in my brief play with a D200 (which has to be sent back because it is faulty) I cannot see anything "different" as far as IQ goes.

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Stacey_K
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,715Gear list
Like?
Re: Scientists not convinced by CMOS develop Scientific-cmos
In reply to olliess, Jul 25, 2013

olliess wrote:

 After all, the main physical principle of both sensors types is the same: photons are received in a photosensitive area, which converts the photons to charges, and then the charges need to be counted.

OK here is something else to think about on the whole "color blind" argument.

Would you say black and white film is color blind? It only records either black or white just like the sensor under the bayer filter correct?

If you don't think B&W film is color blind, why should we assume a sensor is?

BTW I know various B&W films have different sensitivities to different colors even though they only record as B&W. I can't believe all imaging sensors under the bayer filter have the same spectral sensitivity.

-- hide signature --

Stacey

 Stacey_K's gear list:Stacey_K's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D700 Nikon D7000 Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Stacey_K
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,715Gear list
Like?
Re: It's all about nuances, just like the emporer's new clothes
In reply to Trevor G, Jul 25, 2013

Trevor G wrote:

If you cannot even show me an example of back-to-back images where the D200 is noticeably superior, all other things being equal, then the claimed superiority just doesn't exist. Does it?

I posted some today in another thread just for you Yet I'm sure you will somehow find an excuse why the images I recorded and posted "aren't a valid comparison".

-- hide signature --

Stacey

 Stacey_K's gear list:Stacey_K's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D700 Nikon D7000 Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Trevor G
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,473Gear list
Like?
Re: Spectral sensitivity and/or colour pallette?
In reply to Stacey_K, Jul 25, 2013

Stacey_K wrote:

BTW I know various B&W films have different sensitivities to different colors even though they only record as B&W. I can't believe all imaging sensors under the bayer filter have the same spectral sensitivity.

I think you wil find that the differences we see are more related to the colour pallette that is applied by the manufacturer to the data which comes off the sensor, than anything else.

DPR used to display extensive chart testing of this.

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
olliess
Contributing MemberPosts: 922
Like?
Re: Scientists not convinced by CMOS develop Scientific-cmos
In reply to Stacey_K, Jul 25, 2013

Stacey_K wrote:

olliess wrote:

After all, the main physical principle of both sensors types is the same: photons are received in a photosensitive area, which converts the photons to charges, and then the charges need to be counted.

OK here is something else to think about on the whole "color blind" argument.

Would you say black and white film is color blind? It only records either black or white just like the sensor under the bayer filter correct?

If you don't think B&W film is color blind, why should we assume a sensor is?

In the sense: can B&W film distinguish colors as human eyes do? Then no, it cannot, and neither can a bare sensor.

BTW I know various B&W films have different sensitivities to different colors even though they only record as B&W. I can't believe all imaging sensors under the bayer filter have the same spectral sensitivity.

They are not assumed to have the same spectral sensitivity; in fact, a CCD and CMOS will typically not have the same spectral sensitivity at all. However, both are relatively smooth functions in the range that we're interested in, so the camera manufacturer has some freedom in adjusting the Bayer filter to produce the desired red/green/blue responses.

Visual differences in color output seem much more dependent on the choices of R,G,B responses and the mapping of those values to output colors (as Trevor also discusses in the post above). Tests by DxO and other sources show that the underlying sensor can produce hugely different color responses in different cameras -- much larger than the differences between, say, the D200 (CCD) and the D2x (CMOS).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Trevor G
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,473Gear list
Like?
Re: Beautiful image…which lens? (no text)
In reply to jimoyer, Jul 25, 2013

jimoyer wrote:

The D7100 image definitely shows more detail but I've been surprised by the real world difference considering 10mp to 24mp although the D7100 files retain a huge amount of detail in cropping over the D200 images.

Color wise, it really doesn't show as clearly here as the original files do, but the D200 colors are much deeper and smoother than the D7100 files.  In fact it was strange sitting here looking at the two.

Thanks for posting, John.

The real issue here is exposure - the D7000 is over-exposed by at least 0.3 EV.

Once we normalise the 2 images exposure-wise, and crop so that they cover roughly the same area, it is really hard to spot the difference.  There are some detail differences, probably due to the fact that the focus point was different for the two images.

Correct exposure (I am not criticising you) makes a considerable difference.  Correcting in JPEG does not produce a perfect result (I would like the RAWs) - since DPR reviews show that many recent Nikons over-expose I would suggest that -0.3EV might be required as a rule.

I constantly check histograms when I am exposing in a new environment especially.

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jimoyer
Senior MemberPosts: 1,674Gear list
Like?
Deja Vu
In reply to Trevor G, Jul 25, 2013

I appreciate the input......you do know you said the exact same thing back on page 5 of this?

Listen.....you're right.  We're all nuts, blind, clueless or a combination there of.  Hell, my wife's been telling me that for years!

Kidding aside, I understand.  You don't see the difference.  We're just running in circles here and while I can't speak for anyone else, I'm done.

As an aside, I believe its customary here to at least afford the photographer/owner of an image the courtesy of asking them to download and alter their images before you do so.  It's not a huge issue here as those images were just a quick snap shot showing OOC output at identical aperture and shutter speed (and lens), but you did it with Tracey's images as well in another thread too.  Some people get upset by that.

Enjoy your Fuji's.  They're great cameras.

 jimoyer's gear list:jimoyer's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G5 Nikon D7100 Nikon D4s Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED VR +8 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Stacey_K
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,715Gear list
Like?
Re: Deja Vu
In reply to jimoyer, Jul 25, 2013

jimoyer wrote:

I appreciate the input......you do know you said the exact same thing back on page 5 of this?

Listen.....you're right. We're all nuts, blind, clueless or a combination there of. Hell, my wife's been telling me that for years!

Kidding aside, I understand. You don't see the difference. We're just running in circles here and while I can't speak for anyone else, I'm done.

Agreed, this is pointless.

-- hide signature --

Stacey

 Stacey_K's gear list:Stacey_K's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D700 Nikon D7000 Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Trevor G
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,473Gear list
Like?
Re: Deja Vu for you? Clarity for others...
In reply to jimoyer, Jul 25, 2013

jimoyer wrote:

I appreciate the input......you do know you said the exact same thing back on page 5 of this?

I decided to upload the evidence.

Surely, if there was a worthwhile difference, you would point it out to me?

Listen.....you're right.  We're all nuts, blind, clueless or a combination there of.  Hell, my wife's been telling me that for years!

Kidding aside, I understand.  You don't see the difference.  We're just running in circles here and while I can't speak for anyone else, I'm done.

You could take a little time to circle the points which are different...

As an aside, I believe its customary here to at least afford the photographer/owner of an image the courtesy of asking them to download and alter their images before you do so.

When images are displayed for artistic purposes it is customary to not alter them unless invited.

When images are displayed for technical purposes, such as here, I believe there is no rule to prevent displaying them in a manner designed to enhance their impact, that is, to crop and display at 100%, to adjust exposure and so on.

It's not a huge issue here as those images were just a quick snap shot showing OOC output at identical aperture and shutter speed (and lens), but you did it with Tracey's images as well in another thread too.  Some people get upset by that.

When images are displayed for technical evaluation it is customary that those commenting on them do so by cropping, displaying at 100% and so on without permission.  I believe it is called fair usage, in just the same way that a reviewer or commentator could quote from a DPR article without permission, but could not use substantial parts of it without permission.

Enjoy your Fuji's.  They're great cameras.

I have Nikons as well.  Thanks.

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Trevor G
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,473Gear list
Like?
Re: Pointless? Only if you have no point...
In reply to Stacey_K, Jul 25, 2013

Stacey_K wrote:

Agreed, this is pointless.

I have not taken issue with people who enjoy using their D200.

I have only taken issue with people who claim, without substantiation of any sort, that the CCD sensor of the D200 is superior, and can be shown to be superior, to subsequent CMOS sensors.

The D200 is a fine camera and those who like them are fine people.

Those who claim CCD superiority without any real evidence to back it up are less fine.  I haven't put you in this category, by the way...

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads