DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens

Started Jun 12, 2013 | Discussions
JL Salvignol
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DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
Jun 12, 2013
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Bryan Campbell
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to JL Salvignol, Jun 12, 2013

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

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Ray Sachs
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to Bryan Campbell, Jun 12, 2013

Bryan Campbell wrote:

I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

I can't find any preference in the bokeh - you have to be pretty close to get much and both are quite pleasant. I'm telling you these cameras are twins - pick the one with the interface and features that you like better and don't look back...

-Ray
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sounder71
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to Bryan Campbell, Jun 12, 2013

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

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Ray Sachs
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to sounder71, Jun 12, 2013

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

Those DXO scores are so incredibly close there's no point in even bringing them up - DXO said that themselves in their write up. These are basically equal cameras with a few different features that will appeal to different people. I suspect the price has more to do with marketing strategy than labor costs, but that may play some part.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

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aleksanderpolo
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to sounder71, Jun 12, 2013

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

Just like the cheaper Apple product built in Chinese sweatshops. If D800E had been built in Japan, there wouldn't be any left focus point problem, and if x100 was built in Japan, there wouldn't be any SAB either.

O wait!

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

Quote from DxOmark:

"In the portrait tests for color depth, the Ricohoutscores the Coolpix A, but as with the overall scores, the difference is so minimal as to be invisible in the real world. The pattern continues in the landscape tests for dynamic range, though the Coolpix A technically comes out on top, mostly because at ISO 100, it is 1/3rd of a stop better than the Ricoh.

It’s the sports test for ISO performance that sees the Coolpix A just pip the GRto the higher overall score, managing just a little less than a 1/3rd of a stop better, with 1164 ISO to the 972 ISO of the GR."

Ya, 1/3rd of a stop makes all the difference in the world and turn GR into second best.

If you have a particular issue with Ricoh's built quality, go ahead and complain, like in this thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51405499

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Tom Caldwell
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to sounder71, Jun 12, 2013

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

Didn't Nikon just open a factory in Laos?  No disrespect to the Laotian people.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

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Tom Caldwell
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to Ray Sachs, Jun 12, 2013

Ray Sachs wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

Those DXO scores are so incredibly close there's no point in even bringing them up - DXO said that themselves in their write up. These are basically equal cameras with a few different features that will appeal to different people. I suspect the price has more to do with marketing strategy than labor costs, but that may play some part.

-Ray
--------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

I agree Ray.  In reality the components that go into these cameras in cost terms are probably closer to $100 than $200 including labour.  But when you wrap up factory overheads, taxation, marketing, packaging R&D, executive overheads, etc it all adds up if they are bundled into the costing of each item.  Therefore if more items are made the cost per unit is less.  However you can play with these figures and corporate strategies forever.

Despite all the talky-talk about the Nikon A that company probably did it's sums on a lower volume of sales than it expects from other products that they sell into developed markets.  Mainly because it expected that the market leader in this segment (ie: Ricoh) would retain most of it's market share (not a comparison of product capabilities)

Therefore smaller sales volumes need better margins.  Ricoh simply targetted a larger slice of this market.  Sales targets rather than absolute cost of manufacture.  So Nikon is ripping their customers off?  Not so, if their customers perceive the product best meet their personal needs.

I doubt if the labour cost difference is that much different in these cameras.  I don't think that aspersions on the technical work capabilities of Chinese workers serve any purpose.  I am sure that a well trained Chinese assembly worker under supervised conditions in a Ricoh factory in China is any less proficient than a similarly employed assemby worker in any other facility in Asia including Japan.  Methinks that tax and other economic incentives play a much bigger role than the labour cost differential.  Hence Pentax in Vietnam, Thailand, the Philippines and now Indonesia and Nikon just opened a plant in Laos I believe.

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Tom Caldwell
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to aleksanderpolo, Jun 12, 2013

aleksanderpolo wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

Just like the cheaper Apple product built in Chinese sweatshops. If D800E had been built in Japan, there wouldn't be any left focus point problem, and if x100 was built in Japan, there wouldn't be any SAB either.

O wait!

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

Quote from DxOmark:

"In the portrait tests for color depth, the Ricohoutscores the Coolpix A, but as with the overall scores, the difference is so minimal as to be invisible in the real world. The pattern continues in the landscape tests for dynamic range, though the Coolpix A technically comes out on top, mostly because at ISO 100, it is 1/3rd of a stop better than the Ricoh.

It’s the sports test for ISO performance that sees the Coolpix A just pip the GRto the higher overall score, managing just a little less than a 1/3rd of a stop better, with 1164 ISO to the 972 ISO of the GR."

Ya, 1/3rd of a stop makes all the difference in the world and turn GR into second best.

If you have a particular issue with Ricoh's built quality, go ahead and complain, like in this thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51405499

On splitting hairs I am happy to use an honest second best.  It is not as if it is the grand final cup.  Of course I am not clever enough to notice the difference.

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Tom Caldwell

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sounder71
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to aleksanderpolo, Jun 13, 2013

aleksanderpolo wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

Just like the cheaper Apple product built in Chinese sweatshops. If D800E had been built in Japan, there wouldn't be any left focus point problem, and if x100 was built in Japan, there wouldn't be any SAB either.

O wait!

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

Quote from DxOmark:

"In the portrait tests for color depth, the Ricohoutscores the Coolpix A, but as with the overall scores, the difference is so minimal as to be invisible in the real world. The pattern continues in the landscape tests for dynamic range, though the Coolpix A technically comes out on top, mostly because at ISO 100, it is 1/3rd of a stop better than the Ricoh.

It’s the sports test for ISO performance that sees the Coolpix A just pip the GRto the higher overall score, managing just a little less than a 1/3rd of a stop better, with 1164 ISO to the 972 ISO of the GR."

Ya, 1/3rd of a stop makes all the difference in the world and turn GR into second best.

If you have a particular issue with Ricoh's built quality, go ahead and complain, like in this thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51405499

Dude, I must have hit a nerve back then, didn't I?  If you actually own the GR today you will have realized that the A is much sturdier built of the two.

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sounder71
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to Tom Caldwell, Jun 13, 2013

Tom Caldwell wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

Didn't Nikon just open a factory in Laos? No disrespect to the Laotian people.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

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Tom Caldwell

I don't know, did they? (grin, kapow!, caboom)

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Tom Caldwell
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to sounder71, Jun 13, 2013

sounder71 wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

Didn't Nikon just open a factory in Laos? No disrespect to the Laotian people.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

I don't know, did they? (grin, kapow!, caboom)

Kapow, caboom, I just dropped my GR and it fell into 1,000 pieces. Lordy you were right.  Next time I need something to throw at someone I will make sure it is a Nikon A, sure to draw blood.

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Tom Caldwell

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sounder71
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to Tom Caldwell, Jun 13, 2013

Tom Caldwell wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

Didn't Nikon just open a factory in Laos? No disrespect to the Laotian people.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

I don't know, did they? (grin, kapow!, caboom)

Kapow, caboom, I just dropped my GR and it fell into 1,000 pieces. Lordy you were right. Next time I need something to throw at someone I will make sure it is a Nikon A, sure to draw blood.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

Was that your head you dropped your GR on? You've made the right choice!

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Ybor
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to JL Salvignol, Jun 13, 2013

JL Salvignol wrote:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Ricoh-GR-Lens-review-High-imaging-performance-at-a-more-accessible-price/Ricoh-GR-Lens-Versus-Nikon-Coolpix-A-Lens

Very similar as expected.

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JLS

corner shading is where the Ricoh wins the lens battle. The Nikon wins the ISO skirmish. The Ricoh wins the feature set showdown. The Nikon wins construction-wise. Blah, blah, blah...

All of this "Who's crank is bigger?" is sort of pointless but you all just cannot get enough of it. And I thought Ricoh users were a more confident bunch. Must be those who migrated from other places and they need reassurance. Sure looks like you guys have diluted the gene pool around here.

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aleksanderpolo
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to sounder71, Jun 13, 2013

So you did some test to show that A is much sturdier? I would like to see the result.

The grip that comes off in that Nikon A thread doesn't match your belief though.

sounder71 wrote:

Dude, I must have hit a nerve back then, didn't I? If you actually own the GR today you will have realized that the A is much sturdier built of the two.

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Ray Sachs
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Re: DxOMark : Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A lens
In reply to sounder71, Jun 13, 2013

sounder71 wrote:

If you actually own the GR today you will have realized that the A is much sturdier built of the two.

I just spent a few weeks shooting pretty extensively with both. The A is a built heavier. They're both plenty sturdy - neither more than the other.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

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RussellInCincinnati
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Ray did you NOTICE less vignetting with the Ricoh lens?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Jun 13, 2013

At a glance would rather have much less wide-open vignetting in the smallest, lightest APS-C camera in the world a la Ricoh, rather than 1% or whatever better sharpness or ISO noise at some aperture or frame position or ISO that one can somehow measure in the Nikon Coolpix A or some other camera. Have a hard time getting lab-test sharpness in the real world anyway, so that last bit of clarity that some other setup might have compared to a GR will always elude me anyway.

$50 dollar Sony Alpha 18-55 plastic kit zoom.

Having said that, Ray did you notice on a practical level any greater corner darkening with the Nikon vs the GR, considering your particular workflow? You've made it clear that to choose between the 2 cams really comes down to money and/or user interface preferences.

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aleksanderpolo
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Re: Ray did you NOTICE less vignetting with the Ricoh lens?
In reply to RussellInCincinnati, Jun 13, 2013

I actually add some vignetting to my GR's file most of the time (you can also add it in jpg setting in camera).  I think corner sharpness wide open, vignetting, 1/3 stop of performance difference are the least important things one should worry about in choosing one camera over another.

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Pangloss
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Price difference: Ricoh GR lens Vs Nikon coolpix A
In reply to Ray Sachs, Jun 13, 2013

Ray Sachs wrote:

sounder71 wrote:

Bryan Campbell wrote:

Well that's great news. We have the same quality of lens, but $300 cheaper on the Ricoh in a more ergonomic body. I like the bokeh on the Ricoh slightly better too from what I've seen.

Ricoh is cheaper because it was built by children (or grossly underpaid workers) in Chinese sweatshops.

For the record, the A scores higher in both DXO test, camera and lens. If it was sports, the GR will be second best. In real life Ricoh is still a great camera.

Those DXO scores are so incredibly close there's no point in even bringing them up - DXO said that themselves in their write up. These are basically equal cameras with a few different features that will appeal to different people. I suspect the price has more to do with marketing strategy than labor costs, but that may play some part.

-Ray
--------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

For this kind of product, retail pricing is hardly related to production costs. And the proof in this case is that in Japan, the Coolpix A is actually less expensive than the GR (street prices).

Nikon launched the Coolpix A at a higher price point to "skim the market". Since the GR came a couple of months later it had to be launched at a lower price point (outside Japan). Nikon has plenty of leeway to play with promotions, rebates, etc to progressively lower the price of the Coolpix A - if they want to. Pentax has many fewer options in their pricing strategy, because consumers don't take well to price hikes (again, for this kind of product).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing_strategies

So, as Ray suspected, the prices for the Coolpix A and the GR have more to do with marketing strategies than production costs.

Oh, and for the record, that "... children... in Chinese sweatshops..." comment is just plain stupid!

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Andrew
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Ray Sachs
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Re: Ray did you NOTICE less vignetting with the Ricoh lens?
In reply to RussellInCincinnati, Jun 13, 2013

RussellInCincinnati wrote:

Having said that, Ray did you notice on a practical level any greater corner darkening with the Nikon vs the GR, considering your particular workflow? You've made it clear that to choose between the 2 cams really comes down to money and/or user interface preferences.

In the real world, I don't see much if any difference between the output from these cameras. Doing a quick version of the ubiquitous brick wall test, though, the Ricoh is a little bit sharper in the corners wide open and has less vignetting than the Nikon. Its pretty visible (but easily corrected) at f2.8, barely visible at f4, and gone by f5.6. It would never affect my output one way or the other. I'm not shooting landscapes wide open good enough light to see it, my very occasional close up shot where I leave it wide open for some bokeh is gonna be out of focus in those areas anyway and I'd probably ADD a bit of vignetting. And in low light, of course, where you're more apt to be shooting wide open, you'll never see it.

But its there, no question. I know the Nikon lens tested very slightly better overall than the Ricoh, just as the sensor tested very slightly better, but I don't see ANY of it. As one of the few who decided to go with the Nikon, one would possibly think I'd play up any advantages (I don't think I would, but some probably would assume it), but I really can't see ANYTHING between them except for these lens corner issues, where the Ricoh is visibly better, but barely, only on close inspection, and, to me at least, not meaningfully.

-Ray
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

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