Win8 vs Win7

Started Jun 10, 2013 | Discussions
theswede
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to Archer66, Jun 12, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

theswede wrote:

I have no idea what they're named.

How do you find them even in Win 7 if you don't know their names ?????

If I need to connect to, say, a Rexroth servo to make changes in its PLC, I will open the "Rexroth" folder in the start menu, and under that I will have a series of versions, pick the correct one, then under that a number of tasks and readmes, pick the correct one there, and underneath that I have a couple of weirdly named programs and a few readmes. I open the correct readme for the task (usually helpfully named "Read Me") and in there I can read which of the programs in the same folder I need. I keep that readme open while navigating the start menu to find it.

If I go to the Program Files folder all I get is a pile of executables. The organization is in the start menu, where it belongs.

When I tried this in Windows 8 the screen filled up with junk, searching for "Read Me" is about as helpful as you might expect, and even if I manage to open the readme I can't read it while navigating the horror which is the start screen.

Worst researched UI change ever. Or at least since Bob.

Jesper

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theswede
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to Archer66, Jun 12, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

theswede wrote:

iOS and Android are just as confounding to close apps on.

They both have a close button. Which does not move. It's physical

I have Samsung Tab 7.7 with Android 3.2 and I love reading ebooks with Kindle reader. Can you tell me how I close it with a close button ?

I have no idea. I've never seen one. I've given up on Android devices having owned multiple ones, all of which had a physical close button (mimicking the iOS one). These days I stick to iOS for portable devices. That said, if it has no close button that's another reason to stay clear of Android devices. Not that I needed any more.

Jesper

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theswede
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Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
In reply to Archer66, Jun 12, 2013

Actually big part of American corporations are still using Windows XP.

Those who are running Win 7 did the switch recently so they are not looking to update in next 2-3 years.

More like the next ten years. At least. Updating working IT infrastructure is a waste of money.

Jesper

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theswede
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Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
In reply to dradam, Jun 12, 2013

And Win 8 haters are, by and large, a group of crotchety old men who feel that their needs are either completely representative of those of most users (they aren't) or somehow more important because they do "real" work (they aren't and they don't). What's more, for being a big group of "experts" they are somehow completely unable to adapt to even the slightest change.

I adapt to requirements and changes daily. That's not an issue, and is not part of what is the problem with Windows 8. Change brings good and bad things, and is often required to get things done. I switch around my window manager on my home system now and then to keep myself on my toes and learn new ways to do old things.

The problem with Windows 8 is the added cognitive load it hurls on the user. Basic tasks are non-obvious and have to be memorized. There are no cues on how to control Metro applications once they're started - or even how to close them.

There are asinine requirements to have windows keys on the keyboard to get to basic functionality, locking out many industrial and point of sale systems, as well as many professional erqonomic keyboards.

And worst of all, many basic tasks take over the whole screen, as if the users all have ADHD or something and need distractions eliminated. This is not optional, it is the only way Windows 8 works.

That's the main issues which are argued against. Not your straw man "o noes change".

Jesper

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Leon Obers
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Re: Win8 vs Win7
In reply to jalywol, Jun 12, 2013

jalywol wrote:

Well....after using it for a day and a half, and downloading software to give me back some of my desktop functions, I realized that the way they had things set up was simply going to make me unproductive. Having to keep switiching between Desktop and Metro modes to get my mail; not being able to have more than one app on the screen up in Metro.....and not being able to customize the look of the desktop to what I am most comfortable with,

Than you didn't optimize to your liking at all.
All is possible within Win8, just with two little extra tools I managed everything I had before.
Plus the extras of Win8 as a bonus.

That you couldn't match it in one and a half day is your own shortcomings, not the possibilities within Win8.

See e.g.: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51559746

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Leon Obers

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Sean Nelson
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to theswede, Jun 12, 2013

theswede wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

theswede wrote:

iOS and Android are just as confounding to close apps on.

They both have a close button. Which does not move. It's physical

I have Samsung Tab 7.7 with Android 3.2 and I love reading ebooks with Kindle reader. Can you tell me how I close it with a close button ?

I have no idea. I've never seen one. I've given up on Android devices having owned multiple ones, all of which had a physical close button (mimicking the iOS one).

The physical button on an Android device isn't a "close" button - it's a "home" button to take you to the home screen.   It does not in fact close the application at all.   It's rather like clicking the "desktop" button at the right end of the Windows 7 toolbar which minimizes all applications (but leaves them running).   AFAIK there isn't actually a way to "close" an application in Android other than by going to the Application Manager and killing it.

I don't have an iOS device, but I'd be surprised if its physical button was any different.

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theswede
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to Sean Nelson, Jun 12, 2013

The physical button on an Android device isn't a "close" button - it's a "home" button to take you to the home screen.

Tomato, tomato. It closes the application, that is what matters. And it does so easily, without me having to know about hot corners or weird sliding or any such things.

It does not in fact close the application at all.

The application goes away from my screen, leaving me able to use other applications, which is precisely what I want. What it does not do is kill the application, but it most definitely closes it.

It's rather like clicking the "desktop" button at the right end of the Windows 7 toolbar which minimizes all applications (but leaves them running).

Which is exactly how I like it on a mobile platform. Different usage patterns make for different appropriate paradigms. To kill an application on Android or iOS is pointless. Unless you're in the habit of running buggy applications, of course.

AFAIK there isn't actually a way to "close" an application in Android other than by going to the Application Manager and killing it.

You "close" it by clicking the close button. If you really want to kill it, for whatever reason (I can't think of any), in iOS you can't and in Android you just explained how.

But why would you want that? The point of closing an application on a mobile device is very different from closing an application on a desktop system. Completely different paradigms.

I don't have an iOS device, but I'd be surprised if its physical button was any different.

It's exactly the same way. Click it and it closes the current application, giving you a screen where you can start new applications. Just as you would expect a close button to do.

Jesper

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1w12q312qw1
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Re: Win8 vs Win7
In reply to Leon Obers, Jun 12, 2013

Leon Obers wrote:

jalywol wrote:

Well....after using it for a day and a half, and downloading software to give me back some of my desktop functions, I realized that the way they had things set up was simply going to make me unproductive. Having to keep switiching between Desktop and Metro modes to get my mail; not being able to have more than one app on the screen up in Metro.....and not being able to customize the look of the desktop to what I am most comfortable with,

Than you didn't optimize to your liking at all.
All is possible within Win8, just with two little extra tools I managed everything I had before.
Plus the extras of Win8 as a bonus.

That you couldn't match it in one and a half day is your own shortcomings, not the possibilities within Win8.

See e.g.: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51559746

-- hide signature --

Leon Obers

So the argument FOR Windows8 is that with a couple of modifications, you're right back to Windows7. Right? So what's the point of switching? Boot-up is a second or two faster? No one in all of these threads has made a compelling case to switch. The only benefit I see is if your basic computing needs are "social" or "entertainment" websites, then W8 is right up your alley and MS knows this and is trying to capture this seemingly infinite block of people.

Windows7 is optimal for content producers and Windows8 is optimal for content consumers. Some people in this thread are terribly offended by that assessment but it's a fact. These same people resort to calling W7 users "haters" and "old farts" because that's the absolute best they can come up with to justify their standing in life. If they want to use W8, how the heck does that impact my use of W7? Nada, but I do get a kick out of reading their illogical and highly "emotional" arguments here.

Microsoft has taken all of their mojo and panicked and you know what happens when a person or company panicks. And where is the guy who's responsible for Windows8? Oh, that's right, Siberia.

Stan

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walkaround
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Re: Win8 vs Win7
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, Jun 12, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

So what's the point of switching? Boot-up is a second or two faster?

No, bootup is minutes faster on some systems. Shutdown is similarly improved. My Lenovo laptop with hard drive acts like it is an "instant on" flash drive pc.

No one in all of these threads has made a compelling case to switch.

If speed, stability, efficiency, security, and customization are not important to you, then don't switch. Why do we have to compell you?

The only benefit I see is if your basic computing needs are "social" or "entertainment" websites, then W8 is right up your alley and MS knows this and is trying to capture this seemingly infinite block of people.

This "facebook" argument makes no sense to me. There is no evidence to justify that statement. Please provide your proof. I think the idea that Win8 turns your pc into some kind of social media terminal is being propogated by competitors, it's completely absurd.

Windows7 is optimal for content producers and Windows8 is optimal for content consumers. Some people in this thread are terribly offended by that assessment

Well, as usual in these Win7 vs Win8 arguments, the Win8 haters usually end up resorting to "I'm a scientist" or some kind of bragging about their tech credentials and their need for Windows to remain static in its 1995 interface paradigm for the next 50 years, and anyone who uses Win8 is a kid who just wants to be on Faceplant all day long... sad. If you were so tech savvy, you could figure out in about 15 minutes that Win8 is all of Win7 plus new improvements.

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1w12q312qw1
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Re: Win8 vs Win7
In reply to walkaround, Jun 12, 2013

walkaround wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

So what's the point of switching? Boot-up is a second or two faster?

No, bootup is minutes faster on some systems. Shutdown is similarly improved. My Lenovo laptop with hard drive acts like it is an "instant on" flash drive pc.

I've got an OC'd PC and SSDs, don't need anything faster, although others may.

No one in all of these threads has made a compelling case to switch.

If speed, stability, efficiency, security, and customization are not important to you, then don't switch. Why do we have to compell you?

I have all of that with Windows7, whether you believe me or not doesn't matter to me.

The only benefit I see is if your basic computing needs are "social" or "entertainment" websites, then W8 is right up your alley and MS knows this and is trying to capture this seemingly infinite block of people.

This "facebook" argument makes no sense to me. There is no evidence to justify that statement. Please provide your proof. I think the idea that Win8 turns your pc into some kind of social media terminal is being propogated by competitors, it's completely absurd.

It's obvious to me and many others that MS MUST target this group of people to remain a prominent player. When I see my children and grandchildren with their handheld "touchscreen" devices and their social and entertainment choices, I clearly see MS's strategy.

Windows7 is optimal for content producers and Windows8 is optimal for content consumers. Some people in this thread are terribly offended by that assessment

Well, as usual in these Win7 vs Win8 arguments, the Win8 haters usually end up resorting to "I'm a scientist" or some kind of bragging about their tech credentials and their need for Windows to remain static in its 1995 interface paradigm for the next 50 years, and anyone who uses Win8 is a kid who just wants to be on Faceplant all day long... sad. If you were so tech savvy, you could figure out in about 15 minutes that Win8 is all of Win7 plus new improvements.

It's even sadder that all of the tech "dummies" that forum here on dpreview can't be persuaded by any of the arguments for W8. And as you have clearly pointed out in your post, they are simply "idiots" and "haters". After all, even those of us who do not have sterling tech credentials probably have thousands and thousands of dollars invested in D-SLRs and computers and numerous other digital devices, so that probably explains WHY we cannot comprehend the "new improvements" in W8. I've played around with it on my grandson's Acer, and, speaking as a certified, non-tech-savvy idiot, it just plain sucks.

Stan

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Archer66
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to theswede, Jun 12, 2013

theswede wrote:
To kill an application on Android or iOS is pointless.

Yes bc those devices have unlimited memory and are always connected to a powersource. Oh wait...

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Archer66
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Re: Win8 vs Win7
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, Jun 12, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:
It's even sadder that all of the tech "dummies" that forum here on dpreview can't be persuaded by any of the arguments for W8

Their loss, not mine.

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theswede
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to Archer66, Jun 12, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

theswede wrote:
To kill an application on Android or iOS is pointless.

Yes bc those devices have unlimited memory and are always connected to a powersource. Oh wait...

Which is why they have an OS that will kill applications in a controlled manner as it becomes necessary. You don't need to worry about it.

I restarted my iPhone the other week because I had been out flying. Before that it had been on for over six months. Not a single application manually killed in that time - because that can't be done. And zero issues.

That's how all OS'es should be, and that impresses me a lot more than faster startup and shutdown. Why should I have to startup and shutdown in the first place?

Jesper

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dradam
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Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
In reply to theswede, Jun 12, 2013

theswede wrote:

And Win 8 haters are, by and large, a group of crotchety old men who feel that their needs are either completely representative of those of most users (they aren't) or somehow more important because they do "real" work (they aren't and they don't). What's more, for being a big group of "experts" they are somehow completely unable to adapt to even the slightest change.

I adapt to requirements and changes daily. That's not an issue, and is not part of what is the problem with Windows 8. Change brings good and bad things, and is often required to get things done. I switch around my window manager on my home system now and then to keep myself on my toes and learn new ways to do old things.

The problem with Windows 8 is the added cognitive load it hurls on the user. Basic tasks are non-obvious and have to be memorized. There are no cues on how to control Metro applications once they're started - or even how to close them.

There are asinine requirements to have windows keys on the keyboard to get to basic functionality, locking out many industrial and point of sale systems, as well as many professional erqonomic keyboards.

And worst of all, many basic tasks take over the whole screen, as if the users all have ADHD or something and need distractions eliminated. This is not optional, it is the only way Windows 8 works.

That's the main issues which are argued against. Not your straw man "o noes change"

Yours sounds like an extremely specific usage model (though it sounds like a more comprehensive "Read Me" would be able to eliminate such redundant foldering).  But people with specific demands have been using 3rd party launchers and the like on Windows for YEARS.  That the default Windows model no longer caters specifically to you is unfortunate, but I guess you'll just have to join that rank of people.

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dradam
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Re: Win8 vs Win7
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, Jun 12, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

walkaround wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

So what's the point of switching? Boot-up is a second or two faster?

No, bootup is minutes faster on some systems. Shutdown is similarly improved. My Lenovo laptop with hard drive acts like it is an "instant on" flash drive pc.

I've got an OC'd PC and SSDs, don't need anything faster, although others may.

No one in all of these threads has made a compelling case to switch.

If speed, stability, efficiency, security, and customization are not important to you, then don't switch. Why do we have to compell you?

I have all of that with Windows7, whether you believe me or not doesn't matter to me.

Then stick with Windows 7.  Whether you upgrade or not means nothing to anyone here.  Though, one wonders why you spend so much time talking about a product you neither want nor actually use.

The only benefit I see is if your basic computing needs are "social" or "entertainment" websites, then W8 is right up your alley and MS knows this and is trying to capture this seemingly infinite block of people.

This "facebook" argument makes no sense to me. There is no evidence to justify that statement. Please provide your proof. I think the idea that Win8 turns your pc into some kind of social media terminal is being propogated by competitors, it's completely absurd.

It's obvious to me and many others that MS MUST target this group of people to remain a prominent player. When I see my children and grandchildren with their handheld "touchscreen" devices and their social and entertainment choices, I clearly see MS's strategy.

Windows7 is optimal for content producers and Windows8 is optimal for content consumers. Some people in this thread are terribly offended by that assessment

Well, as usual in these Win7 vs Win8 arguments, the Win8 haters usually end up resorting to "I'm a scientist" or some kind of bragging about their tech credentials and their need for Windows to remain static in its 1995 interface paradigm for the next 50 years, and anyone who uses Win8 is a kid who just wants to be on Faceplant all day long... sad. If you were so tech savvy, you could figure out in about 15 minutes that Win8 is all of Win7 plus new improvements.

It's even sadder that all of the tech "dummies" that forum here on dpreview can't be persuaded by any of the arguments for W8. And as you have clearly pointed out in your post, they are simply "idiots" and "haters". After all, even those of us who do not have sterling tech credentials probably have thousands and thousands of dollars invested in D-SLRs and computers and numerous other digital devices, so that probably explains WHY we cannot comprehend the "new improvements" in W8. I've played around with it on my grandson's Acer, and, speaking as a certified, non-tech-savvy idiot, it just plain sucks.

So, your experience with Windows 8 comes from "spending a couple minutes with it on your grandson's computer"?  Yeah, you don't fit the stereotype at all.

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dradam
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to theswede, Jun 12, 2013

theswede wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

theswede wrote:
To kill an application on Android or iOS is pointless.

Yes bc those devices have unlimited memory and are always connected to a powersource. Oh wait...

Which is why they have an OS that will kill applications in a controlled manner as it becomes necessary. You don't need to worry about it.

I restarted my iPhone the other week because I had been out flying. Before that it had been on for over six months. Not a single application manually killed in that time - because that can't be done. And zero issues.

It can be done.  Good thing you've never had an app freeze or slow down your iDevice (happens on mine all the time) because apparently you would have been entirely lost on how to fix it.

That's how all OS'es should be, and that impresses me a lot more than faster startup and shutdown. Why should I have to startup and shutdown in the first place?

You realize that Metro apps work in exactly the same way.  You "close" them (ie. get out of them) by either hitting the Windows key, by clicking the "Start" charm, or by clicking in the bottom left corner of the screen.

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walkaround
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Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
In reply to Glen Barrington, Jun 12, 2013

Glen Barrington wrote:

Win 8 defenders are, by and large, dilettantes who do no work of economic value on their Win 8 devices.  They are happy to  put up with the 'eccentricities' if it results in a "cool" PC experience.

Resorting to school yard insults will not prove your point, but it does succeed in making you look like a child.

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theswede
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Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
In reply to dradam, Jun 12, 2013

That's the main issues which are argued against. Not your straw man "o noes change"

Yours sounds like an extremely specific usage model

To not want added cognitive load? That's about every computer user in the world.

(though it sounds like a more comprehensive "Read Me" would be able to eliminate such redundant foldering).

Oh, you weren't addressing the points in this post, but talking about my specific issues with the start screen. You could have answered a post where that was discussed instead then, but it seems your cognitive ability has indeed taken a beating.

To answer this specific comment; it shows how much you know about the field and those who design the tools for it. Pretty much nothing at all. In this field the software is at best an afterthought, created with as low budget as possible as fast as possible. The focus is on the systems, as it should be. There is no point wasting development and time on creating organization better left to the OS.

That, after all, is why we have GUI OS'es. To handle the drudgery so we don't have to do it manually.

But people with specific demands have been using 3rd party launchers and the like on Windows for YEARS.

It's not "specific demands" to get visual cues how to manage basic tasks.

That the default Windows model no longer caters specifically to you is unfortunate, but I guess you'll just have to join that rank of people.

You just don't get a single thing I say. It's not about "caters". It's about cognitive load.

Jesper

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VirtualMirage
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Re: stick with Win 7 if possible...
In reply to theswede, Jun 12, 2013

I had a nice, long, and thorough reply to your comment but the site glitched on me and it didn't post.  Since I don't want to waste my time typing it all back up, I will just comment on a few things:

Ctrl+Esc.  That is your Windows Key.  Give it a try!

If you find the Windows Key a waste, then you must also consider the Command Key, Super Key, and Meta Key a waste too.  It is only a waste because you refuse to take advantage of it.  It if was truly a waste, the key would no longer exist.

There is no close button on the Android or iOS.  On iOS there is Home Button and on Android a Home and Back button.  When pressing these, it takes you back to the home screen but it does not close the application.  It still resided in the background consuming memory and making for quick access to the app again.  It will close automatically if the memory is needed by another application.  Otherwise, you have to close it manually via the steps I mentioned earlier.

As for your sarcastic response and implication of my lack of knowledge with Windows, I know more about the OS than you may think (and may even know more than you).  If I didn't then I wouldn't be working in a data center with several hundred servers with years of experience and several certifications under my belt, including my MCSA and MCSE.

Your comment about search being the same as Windows 7 I interpreted as you saying I can just type anywhere in Windows 7 and it will begin searching, which you can't do.  This may have been just a misunderstanding of what I read versus what you meant.  You have to click on the Start menu button first before you can start typing to search.  In Windows 8, you can start typing anywhere in the Start Screen (the place you first start in upon login without pressing a key) and it will begin searching.

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VirtualMirage
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Re: YOur response explains perfectly why . . .
In reply to Archer66, Jun 12, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

Actually big part of American corporations are still using Windows XP.
Those who are running Win 7 did the switch recently so they are not looking to update in next 2-3 years.

Yep,

A lot of our end user machines were XP until last year, when they upgraded to 7.  They'll probably do the same next time and won't be upgrading until a Windows 9 or 10 come out.

Our servers get newer OS versions much faster than the end users do.  And even then, we still have quite a few machines that are 2003.  I'd say we are currently around a 60/40 to 70/30 of Server 2008 R2 to Server 2003 machines.

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Paul

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