Canikon another dinosaur?

Started Jun 3, 2013 | Discussions
novaoz
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Canikon another dinosaur?
Jun 3, 2013

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

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Peter from Norfolk Is.

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PC Wheeler
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Re: Canikon another dinosaur?
In reply to novaoz, Jun 3, 2013

We've been reading such views for the past four years; yet Canon and Nikon don't seem to be struggling yet.

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Phil

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Just Having Fun
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Great article
In reply to PC Wheeler, Jun 3, 2013

PC Wheeler wrote:

We've been reading such views for the past four years; yet Canon and Nikon don't seem to be struggling yet.

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Phil

But they have been floundering in the mirrorless market like all the predictions.  If you honestly believe that in 10 years Single reflex mirror cameras will still be king, then good for you, and you are in a very small minority.

Those proprietary DSLR lenses will eventually become obsolete and ironically outlasted by the older film lenses they replaced (which are much smaller and very useful on mirrorless cameras).

I can't say if Canon or Nikon will fail like the article says, but he makes a sound argument.  Canon and/or Nikon need to make a very bold move and heavily invest in these new technologies to have a strong future.

One point he did not mention is companies like JK (Kodak).  Many consumer electronics segments have been crushed by cheap Chinese companies flooding the market to build market share, and now they are going to bat for Micro Four Thirds.

It won't happen overnight, nor in a few years.  My bet is in 7-10 years the camera industry will look completely different.

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teamrican1
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Re: Canikon another dinosaur?
In reply to novaoz, Jun 3, 2013

Don't agree with him at all.  The main thing holding m4/3 back right now is the autofocus issue. Nikon is the only company that has solved that problem, albeit with a much smaller sensor.  The Nikon 1 actually has technology that if Nikon had taken it seriously, could have been seriously disruptive to the video-centric users of m4/3 and completely stolen the thunder from the Black Magic cam.  So from where I am sitting, Nikon seems just as far along, if not more advanced,  in terms of the raw technology of mirrorless as anybody.

If they can improve their 1 sensor to the point where it is competitive with the sony m4/3 sensor, then they win.  If they can upscale their PDAF solution to a APS-C size sensor, they win.

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SethG
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Re: Canikon another dinosaur?
In reply to novaoz, Jun 3, 2013

novaoz wrote:

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

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Peter from Norfolk Is.

he raises some good points, and brings up a lot of interesting facts. But I think his conclusion is flawed. He had a D200 and now has an OM-D.  For 99% of potential users, the Oly is a much better camera by almost any measure (maybe not AF). IMHO he was so surprised/pleased with the results from the Oly, that he figured that m43 was the future, and then wrote an article supporting his conclusion.

Nikon seems to be dropping the ball with the D400 delay. Maybe we'll learn what happened, although prob not.

If the D400 had come out last year, he probably would have found that he would have to upgrade a bunch of glass anyway.

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Savas Kyprianides
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Re: Canikon another dinosaur?
In reply to teamrican1, Jun 3, 2013

Immediate sharp focus acquisition during fast, unpredictable action is a dud in Micro 4/3. Fix that, and Micro 4/3 is golden. Then I can see the dinosaur thing taking place.

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wayfarers
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not as long as they keep releasing products like this one:
In reply to novaoz, Jun 3, 2013

http://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/lenses/canon_40_2p8_stm

Comparing various systems is very tricky, there are to many technical differences, different design philosophies, different individual preferences, etc., etc. And predicting the future is even more difficult. HOWEVER look at this lens: Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM.

Now this is just one lens - you may not like any of Canon system cameras, you may not need 40mm focal length, and so on. So what is unique here?! Well, this is currently the best lens one can buy for $150. There is no other $150 lens from ANY other manufacturer, any system, any focal length, which would offer the same overall IQ.

Again, this is not implying "...and because of that, you should buy a Canon DSLR". It is just one observation. Many people feel that is the "dinosaurs" keep releasing a few such products from time to time it will be many, many years before they become endangered species!

novaoz wrote:

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

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Peter from Norfolk Is.

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ed2002
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Re: Canikon another dinosaur?
In reply to teamrican1, Jun 4, 2013

teamrican1 wrote:

Don't agree with him at all.  The main thing holding m4/3 back right now is the autofocus issue. Nikon is the only company that has solved that problem, albeit with a much smaller sensor.  The Nikon 1 actually has technology that if Nikon had taken it seriously, could have been seriously disruptive to the video-centric users of m4/3 and completely stolen the thunder from the Black Magic cam.  So from where I am sitting, Nikon seems just as far along, if not more advanced,  in terms of the raw technology of mirrorless as anybody.

No question Nikon can produce lenses and bodies, and that 1" is probably big enough for most consumer level video.  Nikon doesn't get anything for its legacy though.  Those old lenses won't do anything on a new system.  The question is whether Nikon will bring out bodies like the GH3 and oly P5 and the lenses that they need.  It might canabilize their dslr offerings.

Improving the sensor will be up to sony, and it looks like in the new agreement oly will get a crack at the new stuff first from sony.

If they can improve their 1 sensor to the point where it is competitive with the sony m4/3 sensor, then they win.  If they can upscale their PDAF solution to a APS-C size sensor, they win.

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ed2002
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Re: not as long as they keep releasing products like this one:
In reply to wayfarers, Jun 4, 2013

wayfarers wrote:

http://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/lenses/canon_40_2p8_stm

Comparing various systems is very tricky, there are to many technical differences, different design philosophies, different individual preferences, etc., etc. And predicting the future is even more difficult. HOWEVER look at this lens: Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM.

Now this is just one lens - you may not like any of Canon system cameras, you may not need 40mm focal length, and so on. So what is unique here?! Well, this is currently the best lens one can buy for $150. There is no other $150 lens from ANY other manufacturer, any system, any focal length, which would offer the same overall IQ.

Again, this is not implying "...and because of that, you should buy a Canon DSLR". It is just one observation. Many people feel that is the "dinosaurs" keep releasing a few such products from time to time it will be many, many years before they become endangered species!

novaoz wrote:

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

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Peter from Norfolk Is.

What makes that lens so much better than the 30mm sigma on m4/3?

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captura
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Re: not as long as they keep releasing products like this one:
In reply to wayfarers, Jun 4, 2013

wayfarers wrote:

http://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/lenses/canon_40_2p8_stm

Comparing various systems is very tricky, there are to many technical differences, different design philosophies, different individual preferences, etc., etc. And predicting the future is even more difficult. HOWEVER look at this lens: Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM.

Now this is just one lens - you may not like any of Canon system cameras, you may not need 40mm focal length, and so on. So what is unique here?! Well, this is currently the best lens one can buy for $150. There is no other $150 lens from ANY other manufacturer, any system, any focal length, which would offer the same overall IQ.

Again, this is not implying "...and because of that, you should buy a Canon DSLR". It is just one observation. Many people feel that is the "dinosaurs" keep releasing a few such products from time to time it will be many, many years before they become endangered species!

novaoz wrote:

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

-- hide signature --

Peter from Norfolk Is.

Yes the Canon EF 40mm pancake is a great lens, for the money. It's DXO rating is 26; higher than any m43 lens measured as of yet. The Panaleica is 21.

Now I'm interested in acquiring it for my NEX-5R together with the Metabones Speedster reducing adapter. That would give me an effective f1.2 and 25mm FF effect. Early on when Metabones was just introducing this adapter (with AF control) they advertised heavily with this 40mm EF lens attached so I'm pretty sure it will work OK.

Since Metabones are planning to introduce this same adapter for m43 in December, I can imagine this will become a popular combo lens here, too.

Getting back to Canikon; here's "Canon's unannounced $800 18MP EOS-b DSLR pops up on Best Buy's website for pre-order "

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/18/canon-eos-b-dslr-best-buy-leak/

Meanwhile Canon is going to introduce a completely redesigned mirrorless M model with an APSC sensor ... yes, slowly but surely they are edging their way in. Canikon has not shown any interest in doing m43.

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wayfarers
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Re: not as long as they keep releasing products like this one:
In reply to ed2002, Jun 4, 2013

Canon 40mm: considerably smaller (in its native mount), more solid build (this may be a bit subjective, but try to shake the Sigma - in two copies I used something rattled inside!), overall IQ is still a bit better (not drastically on m4/3, but remember that Canon is a full frame lens) - see various published reviews. And finally Canon is still less expensive, despite Sigma tradition of aggressive discounting. BUT... don't get me wrong, Sigma is a very good lens, and it is probably preferable on m4/3 system as it does not need an additional adapter.

Again: this is largely comparing apples to oranges, and I am NOT saying that the Canon 40mm would be my best choice for m4/3 camera. My only observation was: can I get overall better IQ for $150? From any lens mounted on any camera, any manufacturer, any focal length? If the Canon 40mm is a sign of a product line becoming extinct soon, I am probably missing something.

ed2002 wrote:

wayfarers wrote:

...Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM.

...

What makes that lens so much better than the 30mm sigma on m4/3?

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007peter
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Canon/Nikon "Continue" to defy death - its selling BETTER every year
In reply to novaoz, Jun 4, 2013

(eye rolled).  People here has been proclaiming the death of DSLR for years.....

Yet, in 2013.  Canon + Nikon continue to be #1 and #2 camera makers world wide even in recession.

The biggest irony is that it is (1) Olympus (2) Panasonic (3) Sony who is dying right now

Now take a look at Nikon

My point is this:

  • While I love Mirrorless Small Camera, I really do, but..... 
  • I wish people stop Proclaiming the Death of DSLR.  It's rather EMBARASSING 
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MrScorpio
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What about IQ?
In reply to novaoz, Jun 4, 2013

The mft is not bad, not at all, but the Canon 6D with non-L glass is not that much heavier and bulkier either.

But the 6D IQ is superior to the mft in all aspects.

IMO there will always be a market for people who wants the optimal IQ, and as long as Olympus keeps delivering sensors with horrible RAW noise over ISO 800, they will never be able to take over the majority of Canons DSLR users.

br

Marcus

novaoz wrote:

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

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Peter from Norfolk Is.

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captura
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Re: What about IQ?
In reply to MrScorpio, Jun 4, 2013

MrScorpio wrote:

The mft is not bad, not at all, but the Canon 6D with non-L glass is not that much heavier and bulkier either.

But the 6D IQ is superior to the mft in all aspects.

IMO there will always be a market for people who wants the optimal IQ, and as long as Olympus keeps delivering sensors with horrible RAW noise over ISO 800, they will never be able to take over the majority of Canons DSLR users.

br

Marcus

novaoz wrote:

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

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Peter from Norfolk Is.

No, Canon and Nikon will enter the milc APS-C fray, and eventually FF also, just as Sony will soon, with their new full-size mock-DSLR's. They may eventually squeeze everyone else out.

The Sony models will be dual-lens (choice of A or E-mount.)

Canikon are not interested in m43.

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captura
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Re: not as long as they keep releasing products like this one:
In reply to captura, Jun 4, 2013

message from DPR- "What's coming up?"

"We're also lining up a review of the Canon 40mm F2.8 STM pancake and we're almost ready to post a gallery of shots from a very interesting lens indeed... (sorry I can't be more specific - keep an eye on our homepage to find out)."

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ryanshoots
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Service? and then I read part 1
In reply to novaoz, Jun 4, 2013

From the article "Moreover, the mediocre customer service and odd warranty policies of firms like Nikon and Canon mean that customers have little brand loyalty beyond the sunk costs of proprietary equipment."

What does Panasonic have in the way of professional services?   They are going to have to get that going to attract pro shooters.  Olympus may have remnants of pro services, but they mostly went away with 4/3 professional shooters.

... Then I read part one and it all became clear "I confess; I’m a recent convert to the micro four-thirds (m4/3) system."

Yes, for almost 6 whole months he's been a m4/3 user.  What is it about the newly converted that makes them feel the need to proselytize to the masses?  I think it's a sign of insecurity.

There will be a place in the world for FF, APS-C, 4/3 and so on.  I would agree the mirror is going away someday in Nikon and Canon.

Lot's of things missing from the m4/3 lens lineup.  Native tilt shifts, high quality zooms (think Oly SHG level glass).  Probably the soonest that is a reality for the pro is when Oly releases a body that will AF it properly.   Sportsshooters are not being served at all by the current m4/3 market.  AF sucks for them and the small sensor requires crazy fast glass to get the thin DOF they want.  Go read John A_G's posts to get a sense of a good sports setup.

How about a good flash system for Panasonic?  I think Olympus' is fairly solid though.

And yes you're not as locked in on glass, but sometimes there are issues such as:  No automatic CA correction when mixing and matching body manufacturers and lens manufacturers, or chattering aperture complaints (rattlesnaking I believe it's been called).  Lenses larger than you need because they include IS, but your body already has it.

To a small extent m4/3 is Android and Nikon or Canon are Apple as far as the hardware goes.  Both approaches work.

If Pentax is still in existence, how bad do things have to get for DSLR's before Nikon and Canon fold up shop?

Also tired of the cliche of writing an article espousing economic principles from mba programs to try to make your points seem well thought out.  Very very common theme among bloggers.  That is only slightly less cliche than another shot of antelope canyon with light illuminating the dust.  Both make me want to vomit.

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ryanshoots
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Re: not as long as they keep releasing products like this one:
In reply to wayfarers, Jun 4, 2013

It is a good lens.  On FF it's the same as the Panny 20 f/1.7 on m4/3.  Except it's higher quality, produces better images, focuses fast on all the cameras if fits on and costs less than 1/2 of the Panny.

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BJN
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Dinosaurs are still successfully flying around...
In reply to novaoz, Jun 4, 2013

The old dinosaur metaphor should be dropped. Birds are dinosaurs and they're very successful.

Micro Four Thirds is a swell compromise and I like my system. But it simply can't do what my Nikon FX system can do (and vice-versa, my Nikon system can't be compact and lightweight).

The fact is, with so many people finding a cell phone enough camera for their needs, we should hope that the remaining camera companies stay successful enough to keep bringing us great tools.

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Ulric
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Re: not as long as they keep releasing products like this one:
In reply to wayfarers, Jun 4, 2013

http://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/lenses/canon_40_2p8_stm

Comparing various systems is very tricky, there are to many technical differences, different design philosophies, different individual preferences, etc., etc. And predicting the future is even more difficult. HOWEVER look at this lens: Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM.

Now this is just one lens - you may not like any of Canon system cameras, you may not need 40mm focal length, and so on. So what is unique here?! Well, this is currently the best lens one can buy for $150. There is no other $150 lens from ANY other manufacturer, any system, any focal length, which would offer the same overall IQ.

Again, this is not implying "...and because of that, you should buy a Canon DSLR". It is just one observation. Many people feel that is the "dinosaurs" keep releasing a few such products from time to time it will be many, many years before they become endangered species!

novaoz wrote:

Interesting article on MFT and why it will outlast Canon & Nikon, some of his argument is sound

http://chasinglightphotography.com/blog/

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Peter from Norfolk Is.

Yes, Canon seem to realize that dslr size is a problem, but their offerings so far have been unsatisfactory. EOS M is small, pretty and flawed. The 40/2.8 is an excellent, inexpensive and small lens with no matching body to put it on.

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nzmacro
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