Why Canon made 1Dx best specification ... II

Started May 24, 2013 | Discussions
Mako2011
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In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

If I had shot your pelican side by side with you - the D800 image would be much sharper for

More resolution probably but I don't think much sharper.

Yes...all else being equal. Just as sharp or sharper. Degree unknown though, you are correct in that regard. Not as sharp as the 40D though

From all D800 photos you posted so far I am not I am not impressed by your D800 photos in sharpness department.

That can happen when you consider the 40D sharper than the 5DIII...tainted vision

According to DXOMark tests,

Unrelated.  Change of subject?

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Well in the past
In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Based on the example presented here...maybe it's a "consensus of one" and some photographers are simply more skilled at using the tools available as the statement above is obviously false. Not "required higher shutter"...we now see the proof in that

That's why I suggested him to fire 20 shots each between D4 and D800 and to see which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness.  It's better to turn off VR.   A single lucky shot with the help of excellent Nikon VR doesn't overturn the consensus of photography rule.  No mention that photo is not really tack sharp.

You seem to be stuck well in the past, in many ways. I'm surprised how often you deny facts when presented in the form of picture examples. Unfortunate. At least you did learn a few things this time...that's  improvement. Have a good day regardless.

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Re: change
In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

If I had shot your pelican side by side with you - the D800 image would be much sharper for

More resolution probably but I don't think much sharper.

Yes...all else being equal. Just as sharp or sharper. Degree unknown though, you are correct in that regard. Not as sharp as the 40D though

But not all else equal. 300L II is sharper than 300G.  5D III is sharper than D800 at per-pixel basis are the facts.  D800 photo is bigger however or has more resolution.  But anyway from so far I have seen from jinik's D800 photos, I am not impressed by sharpness.

From all D800 photos you posted so far I am not I am not impressed by your D800 photos in sharpness department.

That can happen when you consider the 40D sharper than the 5DIII...tainted vision

Those purposely manipulated test is meaningless.  However how 40D is related to this thread? Please not off-topic.  I just say 5DIII sharpness is not less than D800 with choice of lenses.

According to DXOMark tests,

Unrelated.  Change of subject?

Why DxOMark test is not related but 40D is related in this thread?

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Re: Well in the past
In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Based on the example presented here...maybe it's a "consensus of one" and some photographers are simply more skilled at using the tools available as the statement above is obviously false. Not "required higher shutter"...we now see the proof in that

That's why I suggested him to fire 20 shots each between D4 and D800 and to see which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness.  It's better to turn off VR.   A single lucky shot with the help of excellent Nikon VR doesn't overturn the consensus of photography rule.  No mention that photo is not really tack sharp.

You seem to be stuck well in the past, in many ways. I'm surprised how often you deny facts when presented in the form of picture examples. Unfortunate. At least you did learn a few things this time...that's  improvement. Have a good day regardless.

But seriously is that a simple fact and consensus in general that,

Higher pixel density either from crop factor or from amount of pixels would require higher shutter in order to achieve the same level of per-pixel sharpness without help from other factors such as tripod or VR/IS as from a low density camera?

I am just disputing this simple issue, not denying D800 has higher resolution.  Why you just cannot grasp on this.

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In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

If I had shot your pelican side by side with you - the D800 image would be much sharper for

More resolution probably but I don't think much sharper.

Yes...all else being equal. Just as sharp or sharper. Degree unknown though, you are correct in that regard. Not as sharp as the 40D though

But not all else equal.

Yes, I suppose if we put Vaseline over the lens you would be correct

5D III is sharper than D800 at per-pixel basis are the facts.

Not really a fact...all else being equal

But anyway from so far I have seen from jinik's D800 photos, I am not impressed by sharpness.

That's why the 40D example has relevance...it goes towards how you judge sharpness

From all D800 photos you posted so far I am not I am not impressed by your D800 photos in sharpness department.

That can happen when you consider the 40D sharper than the 5DIII...tainted vision

....  However how 40D is related to this thread?

It was a nice example of how you judge sharpness.

According to DXOMark tests,

Unrelated.  Change of subject?

Why DxOMark test is not related but 40D is related in this thread?

Exactly... Now you get it.

DxO numbers are not really related in this case

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Re: no need
In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

The point you won't seem to admit is that a high resolution camera (in this case a 36 MP Nikon, in the future likely an even higher MP Canon) can deliver very sharp images at the pixel level even handheld.  Here's another example for you to not understand (and this one features a Canon 7D and 70-200/2.8 IS  ).  Handheld at 1/400th:

- Full frame image (showing focus point):

- Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

100% crop (800 pixels x 500 pixels - note this is slightly behind the actual focus point):

Sharp and clean photo.  You miss my point.  You should not read I mean you cannot get sharp D800 photos at 100% cropped level thru hand-held (on what shutter speed?).  I just said (read carefully), you'd need better technique such as using higher shutter than lower pixel amount 24mp D600 and 22mp 5DIII at respective per-pixel level.  I'd argue that 5DIII with 300L/2.8 II can take the same photo at 1/200 or even 1/150 for the same per-pixel level sharpness.  After of all, you used 1/400 from 300G/2.8 VR lens.

More pixels, higher crop factor needs higher shutter to get the same per-pixel level sharpness.

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I didn't choose 1/400th - the camera did as I was shooting aperture priority - Any camera would do the same to get a proper exposure in that scene with the chosen aperture.

1/400 with the help of 4-stop VR, nothing special.

I didn't say it was special - it just was an image to show that in normal, everyday shooting conditions you can get excellent pixel level sharpness with a 36 MP camera (and,remember - this is a much higher magnification/smaller portion of an image than a 100% crop from a 22 or 24 MP camera would be - so you are capturing much smaller/subtle detail: you don't seem to get that at all!).

And what's your new diversion? So now we can't use VR?   Geez, do you realize how ridiculous you come accross in your posts?

But since you seem fixated on your quest to make everyone align with your belief that high resolution DSLR's need high shutter speeds and the best glass, let's try this:

Gee, most people know that if you don't use VR/IS, a proper shutter will be = 1 / <focus_length> * pixel density (including crop factor)

What's your point, exactly?  That's a well known rule of thumb for a minimum shutter speed to offset IQ degradation due to camera shake, but it's not an absolute and there are many factors - not the least of which is how steady one cand hold their rig!

1/10th with the 70-200 VR2 (which as you say is worse than the Canon counterpart) and with the 1.4x Teleconverter mounted to further dragrade the pixel level IQ:

I'd suggest you to turn OFF VR, then fire 20 shots from the same lens on 16mp D4 vs 36mp D800, and view them all at 100% cropped .  Then honestly let us know which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness?

Why would I turn VR off when I was shooting at 1/10 @ 150mm??  That's what it's there for!  And why would I fire off 20 shots without VR, when I could get this in 1 shot??

Some of us like to take pictures, not do testing/measurebating.  I'll let you in on another secret - not only do I use VR sometimes, I've also never AF fine tuned any of my lenses - oh, the horror....

- Full frame to show focus point:

-  Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

Just one lucky shot?  How about you fire 20 shots and everytime you can get sharp photo at 1/10?  Or maybe Nikon VR is too good or maybe you have a super sturdy hands

I wouldn't expect to get 20 sharp photos with these settings, but I got it on the 1st shot, so why would I keep shooting??  I was there to capture images, not measurebate.... and I suspect the decent results were more related to the excellent Nikon VR2 as it was windy and about 38 degrees, so I spent much of the day outside shivering as I was unfortunately not really appropriately insulated for the unforecast conditions that day.

I will not call it tack sharp.  It seems doesn't make sense that you used 1.4x TC for a 150mm FL from 70-200G/2.8 VR II that natively covers 150mm FL.  Maybe this is the reason the photo is not really sharp in addition to under 1/10 sec despite excellent Nikon VR.

I didn't say it was tack sharp - I don't expect a 100% crop to ever really be tack sharp like I want to see at an image level.  However, it's quite good for the conditions and very sharp at the image level... (and sharper/more detailed than a crop at this magnification would be from a lower MP camera at the same conditions).

Did you ever stop to think (somehow, I suspect not) that the TC use does not make sense to you because you were not there that day and you did not bother to ask why I had it mounted?

Well, I had both cameras with me and was primarliy shooting cars on the track from a distance (and was using the D800E more for video).  I had had the 300/2.8 VR2 on the D4 and the 70-200/2.8 VR2 /w1.4 TC mounted due to the distance I had just been shooting from - My bag was in my car and I walked by the garage, saw the Lotus and wanted to take a shot.  The 300mm/D4 was too long, so I used the D800E.  I was not going to stop and take a TC off, esp. since I had no place to put it and it was windy with dust flying around.  Simple as that - Now, does that make sense to you???

Also, 4 stop VR2 is the max possible - not the typical result on every shot.  1/10th at 150 mm would be 4 stops under the rule of thumb you yourself cited, so not realistic to expect VR to work perfectly.  IMHO, the result is pretty sharp for a 100% crop under these conditions - I think most reasonable people would agree with that assessment.... but there's always 1 in a crowd...

Gee - I guess you're right:  a high MP camera needs the best glass and high shutter speeds or tripod use, otherwise the the pixel level (100% crop) is soft and mushy.....

Gee, turn off VR, and fire 20 shots each at 1/10 from D4 and D800 and then compare at 100% cropped level.  It's consensus in photography world that longer focus length, higher pixel density either from high amount of pixels or from crop factor requires higher shutter for the same level of per-pixel sharpness provided without help from other factors such as VR/IS or tripod.  You're trying to change the rule.

I'm not changing any rules.  You make it sound like you always have to take extraordinary measures to get pixel level sharpness out of a high MP DSLR.  I've just demonstated that shutter speeds one may normally use in everyday shooting (and, God forbid - use of VR) will be good enough in many cases.

Like any camera (including 22/24 MP FF, or 18/24 MP APSC), getting the maximum IQ requires good technique and good glass, but that is not unique to the D800.  The real difference is that a high MP camera provides one with the potential to capture details a lower res camera can't - but, under the same conditions, the results will never be less when the final images are compared at the same size ( whether large or small)

But now I give up  - I've clearly shown that your mantra that you can't get good pixel level sharpness with a high MP camera without extraordinary measures is simply not true.  You just won't accept that so I won't waste any more time trying to discuss this with someone like you - Continue with your beliefs, as you are entitled to them.  I just wanted to provide an image-based counterpoint for others to consider in forming their own opinions.

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Re: Well in the past
In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Based on the example presented here...maybe it's a "consensus of one" and some photographers are simply more skilled at using the tools available as the statement above is obviously false. Not "required higher shutter"...we now see the proof in that

That's why I suggested him to fire 20 shots each between D4 and D800 and to see which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness.  It's better to turn off VR.   A single lucky shot with the help of excellent Nikon VR doesn't overturn the consensus of photography rule.  No mention that photo is not really tack sharp.

You seem to be stuck well in the past, in many ways. I'm surprised how often you deny facts when presented in the form of picture examples. Unfortunate. At least you did learn a few things this time...that's  improvement. Have a good day regardless.

But seriously is that a simple fact and consensus in general that,

Higher pixel density either from crop factor or from amount of pixels would require higher shutter in order to achieve the same level of per-pixel sharpness without help from other factors such as tripod or VR/IS as from a low density camera?

I am just disputing this simple issue, not denying D800 has higher resolution.  Why you just cannot grasp on this.

What you gloss over is the fact that in many everyday situations, the technique and shutterspeeds you would be using to get the right exposure (espeically outdoors with fast glass) are good enough to make that point moot.  So you seem to be the one who is not grasping - rather, you speak in absolutes on this topic, when you really should not!

However, at least now we know that you will never buy a higher resolution Canon DSLR as this issue is insurmoutable for you - you'll always get better results with your 5D3 as it will provide, at least to  your eyes, better per-pixel sharpness.  Good Luck.

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In reply to Mako2011, May 26, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

P.S:  How embarrassing is this post of yours?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51524821

Top from D800E and bottom from 5DIII that is slightly sharper and should be

Puts things in perspective. Interesting to see someone "realize" the Canon 40D is sharper than the  Canon 5d mark III.  A lot of money can be saved

Look a bit further up in that thread to see why.  That said, the "reveal" also presents a conundrum for me as well.

Need the original files. May be some serious down sampling going on.

Here we are:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51528951

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qianp2k
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Re: Well in the past
In reply to jjnik, May 26, 2013

jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Based on the example presented here...maybe it's a "consensus of one" and some photographers are simply more skilled at using the tools available as the statement above is obviously false. Not "required higher shutter"...we now see the proof in that

That's why I suggested him to fire 20 shots each between D4 and D800 and to see which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness.  It's better to turn off VR.   A single lucky shot with the help of excellent Nikon VR doesn't overturn the consensus of photography rule.  No mention that photo is not really tack sharp.

You seem to be stuck well in the past, in many ways. I'm surprised how often you deny facts when presented in the form of picture examples. Unfortunate. At least you did learn a few things this time...that's  improvement. Have a good day regardless.

But seriously is that a simple fact and consensus in general that,

Higher pixel density either from crop factor or from amount of pixels would require higher shutter in order to achieve the same level of per-pixel sharpness without help from other factors such as tripod or VR/IS as from a low density camera?

I am just disputing this simple issue, not denying D800 has higher resolution.  Why you just cannot grasp on this.

What you gloss over is the fact that in many everyday situations, the technique and shutterspeeds you would be using to get the right exposure (espeically outdoors with fast glass) are good enough to make that point moot.  So you seem to be the one who is not grasping - rather, you speak in absolutes on this topic, when you really should not!

Can you do a simple test as I suggested to shoot 20 shots each between D4 and D800 at 1/10 from the same lens such as from that 70-200G at 200mm, and see which camera is sharper in average at 100% cropped level?  I think you're the one cannot grasp the relativity but talk in absolute.  I never said you cannot take individual sharp photos from D800 but just said you do need a better technique such as a bit faster shutter if you want to fully leverage 36mp.  If we ever had a chance shoot side by side at such 1/10 sec from respective 70-200 zoom at 200mm, I have no doubt my 5D3 (provided we both have same hands' sturdy level) will get more sharper photos when they are viewed at respective 100% cropped sizes

However, at least now we know that you will never buy a higher resolution Canon DSLR as this issue is insurmoutable for you - you'll always get better results with your 5D3 as it will provide, at least to  your eyes, better per-pixel sharpness.  Good Luck.

I actually never said "NEVER" but just said not at this moment until I have a 8K or at least 4K monitor.  Otherwise 46 or 36mp is wasted for me or at least not in my priority and I am going to pay lots more just for extra MP when I only need to print to 20x30" and view at my 1080p monitor.  Since unlikely Canon or Nikon will give a camera both can take 46mp and shoot at 10fps, my priority will pickup a 22/24mp camera that can shoot 10fps over a 46mp that only can shoot at 5fps. Even I start from scratch today, I'd still pickup 5D3 over D800E on my needs and better lens options Canon provides.  My upgrading path will be (as I said in other threads) to get a used 1DX (likely in 2015), get a 24 or 25mp 6D2 when it comes out (hope it has a high DR sensor then) and will sell 5D3 then.  High MP camera just not in my priority.  I know you might have a different priority that is OK.

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Re: OT:
In reply to Great Bustard, May 26, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

P.S:  How embarrassing is this post of yours?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51524821

Top from D800E and bottom from 5DIII that is slightly sharper and should be

Puts things in perspective. Interesting to see someone "realize" the Canon 40D is sharper than the  Canon 5d mark III.  A lot of money can be saved

Look a bit further up in that thread to see why.  That said, the "reveal" also presents a conundrum for me as well.

Need the original files. May be some serious down sampling going on.

Here we are:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51528951

It's just a GUESS game, right?  So I made my guess based on my understanding.  Since it's a game no need to take seriously.  But such guess game by nature is meaningless as you can manipulate in any way including deliberately cheated by somehow (such as alter EXIF).  But that has little meaning in reality except self-satisfaction.  Nobody will naively believe 40D is as good as 5D3 but that doesn't mean 40D cannot take good photos (I know otherwise you'd suggest that's what I mean).  I don't believe that OP will then sell 5D3 and keep his 40D after that game

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Re: OT:
In reply to qianp2k, May 26, 2013

LOL....burn.

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Mako2011
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In reply to Great Bustard, May 26, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

P.S:  How embarrassing is this post of yours?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51524821

Top from D800E and bottom from 5DIII that is slightly sharper and should be

Puts things in perspective. Interesting to see someone "realize" the Canon 40D is sharper than the  Canon 5d mark III.  A lot of money can be saved

Look a bit further up in that thread to see why.  That said, the "reveal" also presents a conundrum for me as well.

Need the original files. May be some serious down sampling going on.

Here we are:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51528951

Ahh...entertainment all around

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Re: no need
In reply to jjnik, May 26, 2013

jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

The point you won't seem to admit is that a high resolution camera (in this case a 36 MP Nikon, in the future likely an even higher MP Canon) can deliver very sharp images at the pixel level even handheld.  Here's another example for you to not understand (and this one features a Canon 7D and 70-200/2.8 IS  ).  Handheld at 1/400th:

- Full frame image (showing focus point):

- Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

100% crop (800 pixels x 500 pixels - note this is slightly behind the actual focus point):

Sharp and clean photo.  You miss my point.  You should not read I mean you cannot get sharp D800 photos at 100% cropped level thru hand-held (on what shutter speed?).  I just said (read carefully), you'd need better technique such as using higher shutter than lower pixel amount 24mp D600 and 22mp 5DIII at respective per-pixel level.  I'd argue that 5DIII with 300L/2.8 II can take the same photo at 1/200 or even 1/150 for the same per-pixel level sharpness.  After of all, you used 1/400 from 300G/2.8 VR lens.

More pixels, higher crop factor needs higher shutter to get the same per-pixel level sharpness.

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I didn't choose 1/400th - the camera did as I was shooting aperture priority - Any camera would do the same to get a proper exposure in that scene with the chosen aperture.

1/400 with the help of 4-stop VR, nothing special.

I didn't say it was special - it just was an image to show that in normal, everyday shooting conditions you can get excellent pixel level sharpness with a 36 MP camera (and,remember - this is a much higher magnification/smaller portion of an image than a 100% crop from a 22 or 24 MP camera would be - so you are capturing much smaller/subtle detail: you don't seem to get that at all!).

That one is the sharpest one among all you posted in this thread.  I didn't suggest you cannot get sharp photo but just said you'd need a better technique to fully leverage 36mp potential.

And what's your new diversion? So now we can't use VR?   Geez, do you realize how ridiculous you come accross in your posts?

Just to get precisely accurate tests.  You cannot count on VR/IS to push to its limit everytime and hope to get lucky sharp photos everytime.

But since you seem fixated on your quest to make everyone align with your belief that high resolution DSLR's need high shutter speeds and the best glass, let's try this:

Gee, most people know that if you don't use VR/IS, a proper shutter will be = 1 / <focus_length> * pixel density (including crop factor)

What's your point, exactly?  That's a well known rule of thumb for a minimum shutter speed to offset IQ degradation due to camera shake, but it's not an absolute and there are many factors - not the least of which is how steady one cand hold their rig!

As in general. It's you to speak in absolute.  Unless you want people to believe you have a super sturdy hand or Nikon VR is so good, you will get sharp 1/10 photos everytime with 70-200 at 150mm by just P&S in one second. Good luck whatever.

1/10th with the 70-200 VR2 (which as you say is worse than the Canon counterpart) and with the 1.4x Teleconverter mounted to further dragrade the pixel level IQ:

I'd suggest you to turn OFF VR, then fire 20 shots from the same lens on 16mp D4 vs 36mp D800, and view them all at 100% cropped .  Then honestly let us know which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness?

Why would I turn VR off when I was shooting at 1/10 @ 150mm??  That's what it's there for!  And why would I fire off 20 shots without VR, when I could get this in 1 shot??

Just for meaningful tests.  Otherwise how we are sure VR kicks in in that shot but not in that shot between two cameras.  Sure we have to assume you have the same average sturdy hands among each group of 20 shots.  If just one shot it doesn't mean much.  A group of 20 shots in average will be very meaningful.  I will be surprised your D800 is equal or sharper than D4 at per-pixel level unless your D4 is faulty.

Some of us like to take pictures, not do testing/measurebating.  I'll let you in on another secret - not only do I use VR sometimes, I've also never AF fine tuned any of my lenses - oh, the horror....

So far I don't MFA on lenses either. So it seem at least we both do excellent QC on the new lenses, LOL.

- Full frame to show focus point:

-  Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

Just one lucky shot?  How about you fire 20 shots and everytime you can get sharp photo at 1/10?  Or maybe Nikon VR is too good or maybe you have a super sturdy hands

I wouldn't expect to get 20 sharp photos with these settings, but I got it on the 1st shot, so why would I keep shooting??

maybe just 1st luck

I was there to capture images, not measurebate.... and I suspect the decent results were more related to the excellent Nikon VR2 as it was windy and about 38 degrees, so I spent much of the day outside shivering as I was unfortunately not really appropriately insulated for the unforecast conditions that day.

VR2 is 4-stop right?  The new 70-200G/4.0 VR claims 5-stop VR and actually is sharper than your F2.8 VR version according to a few reviews including DXOMark.

I will not call it tack sharp.  It seems doesn't make sense that you used 1.4x TC for a 150mm FL from 70-200G/2.8 VR II that natively covers 150mm FL.  Maybe this is the reason the photo is not really sharp in addition to under 1/10 sec despite excellent Nikon VR.

I didn't say it was tack sharp - I don't expect a 100% crop to ever really be tack sharp like I want to see at an image level.

Agreed, it's not tack sharp.

However, it's quite good for the conditions and very sharp at the image level... (and sharper/more detailed than a crop at this magnification would be from a lower MP camera at the same conditions).

That sharpness is OK at 100% cropped level.  However just look your reduced (50%) entire photo, I don't see tack sharp either, not affected by 1/10?  I believe if you increase shutter you likely get sharper photo.

Did you ever stop to think (somehow, I suspect not) that the TC use does not make sense to you because you were not there that day and you did not bother to ask why I had it mounted?

For that particular photo, using TC doesn't make sense for 150mm FL as your 70-200 natively covers that FL w/o TC and will get sharper photo.  TC affects sharpness and other IQ more or less.

Well, I had both cameras with me and was primarliy shooting cars on the track from a distance (and was using the D800E more for video).  I had had the 300/2.8 VR2 on the D4 and the 70-200/2.8 VR2 /w1.4 TC mounted due to the distance I had just been shooting from - My bag was in my car and I walked by the garage, saw the Lotus and wanted to take a shot.  The 300mm/D4 was too long, so I used the D800E.  I was not going to stop and take a TC off, esp. since I had no place to put it and it was windy with dust flying around.  Simple as that - Now, does that make sense to you???

OK.

Also, 4 stop VR2 is the max possible - not the typical result on every shot.  1/10th at 150 mm would be 4 stops under the rule of thumb you yourself cited, so not realistic to expect VR to work perfectly.  IMHO, the result is pretty sharp for a 100% crop under these conditions - I think most reasonable people would agree with that assessment.... but there's always 1 in a crowd...

Reasonable people will not believe you will get that lucky everytime to push 4-stop VR2 to limit.  The bottom line is that you actually will get sharper photo by using faster shutter or not using TC or by both.

Gee - I guess you're right:  a high MP camera needs the best glass and high shutter speeds or tripod use, otherwise the the pixel level (100% crop) is soft and mushy.....

Gee, turn off VR, and fire 20 shots each at 1/10 from D4 and D800 and then compare at 100% cropped level.  It's consensus in photography world that longer focus length, higher pixel density either from high amount of pixels or from crop factor requires higher shutter for the same level of per-pixel sharpness provided without help from other factors such as VR/IS or tripod.  You're trying to change the rule.

I'm not changing any rules.  You make it sound like you always have to take extraordinary measures to get pixel level sharpness out of a high MP DSLR.  I've just demonstated that shutter speeds one may normally use in everyday shooting (and, God forbid - use of VR) will be good enough in many cases.

The definition of good enough is subjective.  To me for that photo I believe you could get sharper photo by using better technique - faster shutter and w/o TC as your 70-200 covers the FL and nothing prevent you stop down a bit to get sharper and better contrast photo (contrast in that photo is also not at the top).

Like any camera (including 22/24 MP FF, or 18/24 MP APSC), getting the maximum IQ requires good technique and good glass, but that is not unique to the D800.

True, agreed.  The difference is for higher pixel density camera such as D800 it requires higher technique to fully leverage at respective potential.  That's what my point.

The real difference is that a high MP camera provides one with the potential to capture details a lower res camera can't - but, under the same conditions, the results will never be less when the final images are compared at the same size ( whether large or small)

Not disagreed but depends on my export size.  Since I only print to 20x30" or view at 1080p monitor, the difference between 22mp nd 36mp is negligible.  And I don't believe over cropping that is not replacement for longer FL lens.

But now I give up

Hope so this time but I guess you will come back again.

- I've clearly shown that your mantra that you can't get good pixel level sharpness with a high MP camera without extraordinary measures is simply not true.

It's you to speak in absolute.  I said in general.  That's why I suggested you to do a scientific test by shooting each group of 20 shots between D4 and D800 at 1/10 from 70-200 at 1/200 with VR off to see which camera has average sharper per-pixel photos   Is that simple?

You just won't accept that so I won't waste any more time trying to discuss this with someone like you - Continue with your beliefs, as you are entitled to them.  I just wanted to provide an image-based counterpoint for others to consider in forming their own opinions.

I believe you're wasting time.  No mention the samples you provided such as bird or car are not that tack sharp anyway to support your claim.  Thx to jump into this Canon forum to boast your D800. I am not impressed nevertheless

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also
In reply to qianp2k, May 26, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

P.S:  How embarrassing is this post of yours?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51524821

Top from D800E and bottom from 5DIII that is slightly sharper and should be

Puts things in perspective. Interesting to see someone "realize" the Canon 40D is sharper than the  Canon 5d mark III.  A lot of money can be saved

Look a bit further up in that thread to see why.  That said, the "reveal" also presents a conundrum for me as well.

Need the original files. May be some serious down sampling going on.

Here we are:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51528951

It's just a GUESS game, right?  So I made my guess based on my understanding.

No...the tread was about noise...biased take on it was driven by "sharpness". Unrelated to noise

Since it's a game no need to take seriously.

Still something to be learned about peoples perceptions and concept understanding.

Nobody will naively believe 40D is as good as 5D3

Actually, you indicted it was better than the 5D3 is certain circumstances.

but that doesn't mean 40D cannot take good photos

True...and in some cases, better pictures

I don't believe that OP will then sell 5D3 and keep his 40D after that game

I doubt that also

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Re: OT:
In reply to Dave Luttmann, May 26, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

LOL....burn.

LOL, where are your D800 photos?

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In reply to qianp2k, May 26, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

The point you won't seem to admit is that a high resolution camera (in this case a 36 MP Nikon, in the future likely an even higher MP Canon) can deliver very sharp images at the pixel level even handheld.  Here's another example for you to not understand (and this one features a Canon 7D and 70-200/2.8 IS  ).  Handheld at 1/400th:

- Full frame image (showing focus point):

- Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

100% crop (800 pixels x 500 pixels - note this is slightly behind the actual focus point):

Sharp and clean photo.  You miss my point.  You should not read I mean you cannot get sharp D800 photos at 100% cropped level thru hand-held (on what shutter speed?).  I just said (read carefully), you'd need better technique such as using higher shutter than lower pixel amount 24mp D600 and 22mp 5DIII at respective per-pixel level.  I'd argue that 5DIII with 300L/2.8 II can take the same photo at 1/200 or even 1/150 for the same per-pixel level sharpness.  After of all, you used 1/400 from 300G/2.8 VR lens.

More pixels, higher crop factor needs higher shutter to get the same per-pixel level sharpness.

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I didn't choose 1/400th - the camera did as I was shooting aperture priority - Any camera would do the same to get a proper exposure in that scene with the chosen aperture.

1/400 with the help of 4-stop VR, nothing special.

I didn't say it was special - it just was an image to show that in normal, everyday shooting conditions you can get excellent pixel level sharpness with a 36 MP camera (and,remember - this is a much higher magnification/smaller portion of an image than a 100% crop from a 22 or 24 MP camera would be - so you are capturing much smaller/subtle detail: you don't seem to get that at all!).

That one is the sharpest one among all you posted in this thread.  I didn't suggest you cannot get sharp photo but just said you'd need a better technique to fully leverage 36mp potential.

If he did that, we might severely cut ourselves on the additional sharpness. He's already done very well as is...no need to tempt fate and risk a blood bath

qianp2k wrote:

I believe you're wasting time.  No mention the samples you provided such as bird or car are not that tack sharp anyway to support your claim

Actually he did. Perhaps a 40D pic would make it easier for you to see the obvious difference.

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In reply to Mako2011, May 26, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

If he did that, we might severely cut ourselves on the additional sharpness. He's already done very well as is...no need to tempt fate and risk a blood bath

blah, blah, blah, you seem very busy to speak for many and keep changing subject title.  I know your standard of noises and sharpness well

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51021107

Mako2011 photo in Venice

Here is my photo which is not my selected one but just found taken at the same scene.  Yeah I know I know your sharpness and details

qianp2k photo at the same scene of Venice, Italy

Gee

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In reply to Mako2011, May 26, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Can you please let him to speak for himself?  Are you his spoken man?

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In reply to Mako2011, May 26, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

P.S:  How embarrassing is this post of yours?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51524821

Top from D800E and bottom from 5DIII that is slightly sharper and should be

Puts things in perspective. Interesting to see someone "realize" the Canon 40D is sharper than the  Canon 5d mark III.  A lot of money can be saved

Look a bit further up in that thread to see why.  That said, the "reveal" also presents a conundrum for me as well.

Need the original files. May be some serious down sampling going on.

Here we are:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51528951

Ahh...entertainment all around

Yes indeed that's why I called game.  Sure you can enjoy just for self-intoxication. But what really matter is real world photos that I never lacking off.  I will go out to shoot the airshow tomorrow at Jones Beach. Weather will not be nice.  It's cancelled today due to consistent raining, cold and windy weather.  Real world photos only matters.

Which bird really has more feather details and is sharper? 

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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

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In reply to qianp2k, May 26, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

P.S:  How embarrassing is this post of yours?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51524821

Top from D800E and bottom from 5DIII that is slightly sharper and should be

Puts things in perspective. Interesting to see someone "realize" the Canon 40D is sharper than the  Canon 5d mark III.  A lot of money can be saved

Look a bit further up in that thread to see why.  That said, the "reveal" also presents a conundrum for me as well.

Need the original files. May be some serious down sampling going on.

Here we are:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51528951

Ahh...entertainment all around

Yes indeed that's why I called game.

What, after the fact...nice backtrack.

Which bird really has more feather details and is sharper?

In this specific case, yes the D800 both our resoles (shows more detail) and is sharper. Under the circumstances presented, it's too be expected. Just as you pointed out...the 40D did indeed appear sharper than the 5dmkIII in that case. Your only mistake was assuming the 40D shot was actually the 5DmkIII. That was simply bias and we understand were it comes from. To be expected.

100% crop (a 400 pixel x 500 pixel portion of the full size image):

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