Why Canon made 1Dx best specification ... II

Started May 24, 2013 | Discussions
Mako2011
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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:


-  Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

Gee - I guess you're right:  a high MP camera needs the best glass and high shutter speeds or tripod use, otherwise the the pixel level (100% crop) is soft and mushy.....

As someone said...."you do need to use the best technique such as the best lenses and on tripod to fully leverage D800 resolution in order to print in excellent quality to billboard size 40x60"

I'm afraid you might actually cut yourself on that image had you taken the time to "use the best technique".  Good thing you were sloppy

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Mako2011
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Sharper :)
In reply to Great Bustard, May 25, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:


P.S:  How embarrassing is this post of yours?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51524821

qianp2k wrote:....Top from D800E and bottom from 5DIII that is slightly sharper and should be

Puts things in perspective. Interesting to see someone "realize" the Canon 40D is sharper than the  Canon 5d mark III.  A lot of money can be saved

Look a bit further up in that thread to see why.  That said, the "reveal" also presents a conundrum for me as well.

Need the original files. May be some serious down sampling going on.

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Apewithacamera
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The photo is just simulation of me viewing that large print from 5' away.
In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

I cannot resolve the 1/64" scale on that ruler with my eyes. A 4x5 format will have more detail but it will be hidden from the viewer.

Eventually if both images were to be further enlarged and my viewing position remained the same, the 4x5 will reveal its better resolution.

Davids sample is simulating a 90" print. Well helloooo thats what I've been talking about. If he would reduce his 90" sample down to the sizes at issue and put them up side by side and at normal viewing distance they'd be difficult if not impossible to tell apart.

Soon I'll have my own LF printer and I'm quite confident I'll get great results.

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Mako2011
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In reply to Apewithacamera, May 25, 2013

Apewithacamera wrote:

I cannot resolve the 1/64" scale on that ruler with my eyes.

I can, though it would be much easier had you enabled "original" viewing (as I suggested above) vs limiting folks to the downsized DPR "large" setting

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Apewithacamera
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Did you set up a ruler or are you wanting to see the original of the photo with the
In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

ruler? Please clarify thx

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Mako2011
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In reply to Apewithacamera, May 25, 2013

Apewithacamera wrote:

ruler? Please clarify thx

I enhanced the ruler in the photo with CS6.

That said...when you go to your gallery you have three choices of viewing size options...Small, Medium, Large. Click on each to see the dif.  Your missing the "original" size option so the full image, as you uploaded it, is not available for viewing. That makes it much harder to see detail.

If you go here...

http://www.dpreview.com/members/settings/profile
And under the "allow download of originals"  check  "Allow visitors to download full size original images from your gallery" then there will be a forth view option..."original". You can go to my gallery and see the difference it makes

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: Place a 1/64" ruler near one of your large prints if you have any LOL
In reply to Apewithacamera, May 25, 2013

Apewithacamera wrote:

From 5' away let us know if you can resolve that scale with your eyes. I know I can't but if you can, you are indeed

Superman

End

I guess you don't print for the fine art market.  In a gallery setting, people start to view large prints from 5or6 feet away....then they move in close to immerse themselves in the detail of the image.  Yours will be lacking in detail as we have already established that 96 ppi is low detail.

Your consistent attempts to change the topic to the issue of this print on our wall are completely irrelevant.  I posted my sample to compare to yours.  You lost the challenge.  Now you are simply arguing in a silly attempt to save face.  You lost. It's obvious.  Get over it.

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Apewithacamera
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How close do they move in? nt
In reply to Dave Luttmann, May 25, 2013

nt

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: How close do they move in? nt
In reply to Apewithacamera, May 25, 2013

Apewithacamera wrote:

nt

18" or so is the norm when they want to take in the print.

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Apewithacamera
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18" That is a long ways off from the magnification it took to reveal the printer
In reply to Dave Luttmann, May 25, 2013

lines and alaising via my camera + 1:1 macro lens + further magnified in my computer.

Just using this 8x loup can I just start seeing what my setup above reveals.

Along way from 18"

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John Sheehy
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Re: Place a 1/64" ruler near one of your large prints if you have any LOL
In reply to Apewithacamera, May 25, 2013

Apewithacamera wrote:

From 5' away let us know if you can resolve that scale with your eyes. I know I can't but if you can, you are indeed

That's not even relevant, because periodic lines do not represent all real world vision issues.

The eyes and brain can appreciate fine analog placement of edges and dots, far beyond the resolution of parallel lines.  Tell me, do you see jaggies when you view a curved edge in real life?

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: 18" That is a long ways off from the magnification it took to reveal the printer
In reply to Apewithacamera, May 25, 2013

Just to be clear, I dont even need your macro shots as I do prints of all sizes from a variety of gear.  From 18" to 2 feet, the 5D2 falls apart.

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Apewithacamera
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That is a pretty good question. The retina made up of cones and rods
In reply to John Sheehy, May 25, 2013

If somehow we could magnify that would the eyes image be round dots formed and assemble by our brains? I'm not an Eye  Dr btw 

Viewing a tv at a distance we can see the dots making up the image but the closer you get to the tv the dots creating the illusion become apparent.

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Apewithacamera
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Only in your opinion not mine. Anywho I'm done for now as I await delivery of my own
In reply to Dave Luttmann, May 25, 2013

LF printer.

At that time I'll finally be able to have full control over my large prints.

BTW the print you see was made on a LF HP printer at a local office supply store and other than handing my disc to the clerk I had no control or choice of paper or printer settings available.

That print cost me about $30.00 it looks very good but I can't wait to print my own.

I mayeven redo this image with my new printer on some really fine paper.

Have a nice day.

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John Sheehy
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Re: Except...
In reply to Danga, May 25, 2013

Danga wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Blurry?    1DIII + Canon 100/2.8 macro (non-IS version) hand-held .

100% of a macro photo...I wonder what the original macro photo looks like.

The original looks like it is reduced to 50% its original pixel dimensions with the nearest Neighbor algorithm, and then sharpened.  Peter is operating upon a few layers of illusion.

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: Only in your opinion not mine. Anywho I'm done for now as I await delivery of my own
In reply to Apewithacamera, May 25, 2013

Apewithacamera wrote:

LF printer.

At that time I'll finally be able to have full control over my large prints.

BTW the print you see was made on a LF HP printer at a local office supply store and other than handing my disc to the clerk I had no control or choice of paper or printer settings available.

That print cost me about $30.00 it looks very good but I can't wait to print my own.

I mayeven redo this image with my new printer on some really fine paper.

Have a nice day.

Then put the samples side by side at equivalent size and let everyone here decide which is better.  Nothing to do with opinion.  I think you know which is better....you just cant seem to admit it.

Yes, use a better printer.

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qianp2k
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Re: no need
In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

The point you won't seem to admit is that a high resolution camera (in this case a 36 MP Nikon, in the future likely an even higher MP Canon) can deliver very sharp images at the pixel level even handheld.  Here's another example for you to not understand (and this one features a Canon 7D and 70-200/2.8 IS  ).  Handheld at 1/400th:

- Full frame image (showing focus point):

- Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

100% crop (800 pixels x 500 pixels - note this is slightly behind the actual focus point):

Sharp and clean photo.  You miss my point.  You should not read I mean you cannot get sharp D800 photos at 100% cropped level thru hand-held (on what shutter speed?).  I just said (read carefully), you'd need better technique such as using higher shutter than lower pixel amount 24mp D600 and 22mp 5DIII at respective per-pixel level.  I'd argue that 5DIII with 300L/2.8 II can take the same photo at 1/200 or even 1/150 for the same per-pixel level sharpness.  After of all, you used 1/400 from 300G/2.8 VR lens.

More pixels, higher crop factor needs higher shutter to get the same per-pixel level sharpness.

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I didn't choose 1/400th - the camera did as I was shooting aperture priority - Any camera would do the same to get a proper exposure in that scene with the chosen aperture.

1/400 with the help of 4-stop VR, nothing special.

But since you seem fixated on your quest to make everyone align with your belief that high resolution DSLR's need high shutter speeds and the best glass, let's try this:

Gee, most people know that if you don't use VR/IS, a proper shutter will be = 1 / <focus_length> * pixel density (including crop factor)

1/10th with the 70-200 VR2 (which as you say is worse than the Canon counterpart) and with the 1.4x Teleconverter mounted to further dragrade the pixel level IQ:

I'd suggest you to turn OFF VR, then fire 20 shots from the same lens on 16mp D4 vs 36mp D800, and view them all at 100% cropped .  Then honestly let us know which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness?

- Full frame to show focus point:

-  Cropped full size image (to get under the 20 MP gallery upload limit):

Just one lucky shot?  How about you fire 20 shots and everytime you can get sharp photo at 1/10?  Or maybe Nikon VR is too good or maybe you have a super sturdy hands

I will not call it tack sharp.  It seems doesn't make sense that you used 1.4x TC for a 150mm FL from 70-200G/2.8 VR II that natively covers 150mm FL.  Maybe this is the reason the photo is not really sharp in addition to under 1/10 sec despite excellent Nikon VR.

Gee - I guess you're right:  a high MP camera needs the best glass and high shutter speeds or tripod use, otherwise the the pixel level (100% crop) is soft and mushy.....

Gee, turn off VR, and fire 20 shots each at 1/10 from D4 and D800 and then compare at 100% cropped level.  It's consensus in photography world that longer focus length, higher pixel density either from high amount of pixels or from crop factor requires higher shutter for the same level of per-pixel sharpness provided without help from other factors such as VR/IS or tripod.  You're trying to change the rule.

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Mako2011
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In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:



It's consensus in photography world that longer focus length, higher pixel density either from high amount of pixels or from crop factor requires higher shutter for the same level of per-pixel sharpness provided without help from other factors such as VR/IS or tripod.

Based on the example presented here...maybe it's a "consensus of one" and some photographers are simply more skilled at using the tools available as the statement above is obviously false. Not "required higher shutter"...we now see the proof in that

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qianp2k
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Re: no need
In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:

If I had shot your pelican side by side with you - the D800 image would be much sharper for

More resolution probably but I don't think much sharper. From all D800 photos you posted so far I am not impressed by your D800 photos in sharpness department.

According to DXOMark tests, Canon 70-200L/2.8 copy beats Nikon counterpart and effectively overcome 14mp deficit.

70-200L/2.8 IS II + 5DIII vs 70-200G/2.8 VR II + D800   21 vs 20 p-mpix

If I own and use Canon 300L/2.8 IS II, widely regarded the sharpest lens, I don't think your D800 with 300G is sharper.

300L II on 5DIII fully resolves to 22 p-mpix that means no loss.  DXOMark has not tested 300G/2.8 VR but I believe it will have hefty loss on D800.

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qianp2k
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Re: Not required
In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Based on the example presented here...maybe it's a "consensus of one" and some photographers are simply more skilled at using the tools available as the statement above is obviously false. Not "required higher shutter"...we now see the proof in that

That's why I suggested him to fire 20 shots each between D4 and D800 and to see which camera has better average per-pixel sharpness.  It's better to turn off VR.   A single lucky shot with the help of excellent Nikon VR doesn't overturn the consensus of photography rule.  No mention that photo is not really tack sharp.

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