Why Canon made 1Dx best specification ... II

Started May 24, 2013 | Discussions
jjnik
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Re: *Sigh*
In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

I'm a firm believer in free speech.  Peter is absolutely free to speak his mind, as tiring as it can be, on occasion.  That said, I don't have to read, or respond, so it's only tiring because I choose to read and respond.

Me too.  I strongly believe debates even heated should be allowed as long as nobody violates DPR rules.

If he can let go of his blind Canon loyalty,

Not true, that is ONLY your speculation.  I never deny Nikon DR advantage and D800 resolution advantage.  I only dispute that you do need better technique to fully leverage higher pixel density camera such as D800, not just I said but DPR review said as well.

and you needed better technique going from the original 5D to the 5D2/5D3 as well if you wanted to maximize the benefit of the extra resolution - but it's not that hard to do and doesn't require a tripod all the time either.  Here's a handheld D800E shot:

- Full frame Image (resized to 50% as the original image is too large for DPReview Gallery which allows a max of a 20 MP image):

- Heavy Cropped Image (not reduced in size - so you can view at 100% if you want to):

- An actual 100% crop (a 400 pixel x 500 pixel portion of the full size image):

and his uneducated fascination with 100% crops as a measure of the IQ of the displayed photo, then there is hope for him, as he seems otherwise cognitively capable.

Well, don't assume you're a photography authority.  There are too many self-claimed "experts" in DPR forums.  That's why we need discussions and debates.  Don't jump on conclusions.

That said, the purpose of my posts is not to educate him, but rather in hopes that others reading who might be enlightened by the resulting exchange.

Educate me?  What a joke!  Who are you, Ansel Adams II? So let's the debates continue...

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In reply to Great Bustard, May 25, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

... that if you take a photo of a scene with the D800 and the Sigma 35, that it will resolve more detail than if you took a photo of the same scene with the same settings and the same lens with a 5D3, regardless of what those settings are and regardless of the scene.

How much more detail the D800 would record, however, will depend tremendously on the scene and settings.  Furthermore, if the greater detail of the D800 would even matter, depends tremendously on not only on the scene and settings, but on how large the photo is displayed and how closely it is viewed, not to mention the QT (quality threshold) of the viewer.

Excellent description/explanation. Reminded me of some important things I had not considered in awhile. Thanks

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jjnik
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Re: *Sigh*
In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

not sure why the second image above does not show up - but if you click on the empty frame with red x, it will open from the galler page?

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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:


- Full frame Image (resized to 50% as the original image is too large for DPReview Gallery which allows a max of a 20 MP image):

- Heavy Cropped Image (not reduced in size - so you can view at 100% if you want to):

Very nice example. Thank you. If you don't mind... could you go here go here http://www.dpreview.com/members/settings/profile
And under the "allow download of originals"  check  "Allow visitors to download full size original images from your gallery" That way I can download the cropped imagae without fear of losing a pixel. Thank you

- An actual 100% crop (a 400 pixel x 500 pixel portion of the full size image):

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qianp2k
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Re: *Sigh*
In reply to Great Bustard, May 25, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

There are too many sentences and I don't want to reply one on one basis as most of them are the same regarding below the key point.

Finally something we can both agree on! 

Great Bustard wrote:

...or print to their supposed sizes such as 20x30" vs 40x60".

When printed at the same size (and why would we be comparing systems in any other matter), more pixels will yield more detail every time (all else equal).

Yeah a big ONLY if all else equal, that's the point.

Well, I mean, duh.  The point is, everything can be made equal except the lenses (although the lenses are often, if not usually, close enough).

But how to make everything else equals?

You can't.  You compare the systems on the basis of the photos you intend to take with the systems and the lenses you expect to use.

That's the point that you cannot.  I'd agree with you if truly everything equals.  But in reality they don't.  Canon 24-70L II is better than Nikon counterpart, Canon 70-200L II is better than Nikon counterpart, Canon 24mm TS-E II is better, Canon 17mm TS-E is unique and better than 14-24 at 17mm in edges/corners clearly.

Do you have to use a better technique such as tripod and the best lens on D800?

No.  Do you think I use a tripod with my 20 MP 6D when I came from a 13 MP 5D?

So you can see difference at 2000-pixel wide or at 13x19" print? I cannot between my 5D3 and 5D1 except former is slightly better in DR.  I don't think you can tell difference between 5D3 and D800 at 3000-4000 pixel wide or at 18x26" or even 20x30" prints.  I read several due system owners said so.  In order to print really well at 60" wide, you do need to put D800 on tripod while you have a good chance to print hand-held photos from 5D3 at 30" wide.  To see clear difference at 40" wide, I do believe you'd need put D800 on tripod or still very small if both shoot hand-held.  5D3 files can upsampling thru special software and be pretty comparable to D800 to print at 40" wide.

Otherwise the difference is much smaller due to imperfect techniques and lens.

You know, it really isn't.  Indeed, you are quite the hypocrite, as I made this exact point:

Please don't get excited and take personal.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51518848

and in your response to that point, you added more support to it.

That is your post.  I am not sure what you talking about.  But 5D2 that OP talking about is not a high density camera compared to D800.  it affected much less by shooting in hand-held.

I actually read you're hypocrite a few weeks' ago in Open Forum that you boated your 6D shallower DOF and you can shoot wide open in low light not to worry about DOF much, that contradicts to your posts in mFT forum that you keep emphasizing to shoot on eq. DOF, that I disagreed.  So it seems you talked differently in different forums.

To achieve all else equal such as similar per-pixel level IQ...

And again, Peter, per-pixel IQ is meaningless.  It's the photo we're talking about here.  I mean, if we're not talking photos, then there's no point to this "conversation".


But that directly affects cropping capability and print quality. Don't they?

What I'm saying, Peter, is that it's not the per-pixel IQ that matters, but the IQ of the resulting photo.  A 100% crop from the 5D3 will not necessarily look as good as a 100% crop from a 5D, but that doesn't mean that the 5D3 doesn't resolve significantly more.

It's matter absolutely.  Actually 5D2 and 5D3 per-pixel quality is pretty close to 5D1 while D800 is obvious less.  Better per-pixel quality, better cropping capability and better print quality.

...you' need better technique on D800 such as the best lens (such as Sigma 35/1.4) on tripod, otherwise the advantage is disappearing quickly.

Yes -- the *advantage* will disappear quickly with poor technique (or narrow apertures where diffraction is dominant), but the *advantage* will always remain.

Becomes much smaller or even noticeable.But I am glad you finally agreed up the value of a good technique

Peter, I acknowledged the value of good technique with my very first sentence of my very first post in this thread.  Please, stop mistrepresenting, whether it be of deliberate intent or ignorance of what I've said.

So you agreed your own acknowledgement.  What's the problem?  My point is that higher pixel amounts, better technique you needed not to export to the same size of lower MP camera, but to its own designed potential.  D800 is not designed to print to 20x30" or 4000-pixel on screen, but 40x60" print and 7000-pixel on screen.  Otherwise you wasting 36mp and better to buy a 24mp D600.

See, DXOMark shows with a better lens such as 24-70L II 5D3 actually has better perceptual sharpness that roughly based on MTF 30 resolution in beating D800 with 24-70G, whoops, no mention if D800 not take on a sturdy tripod.

24-70L II on 5D3 vs 24-70G on D800

So DxOMark shows, with the particular lenses they tested, that the Canon lens is significantly better than the Nikon lens.

No, DXOMark tested entire system not lens.  Sensor or lens doesn't take photos alone but must work together.

Yes.  But since the D800 sensor resolves signficantly more than the 5D3 sensor (36 MP vs 22 MP, and the AA filters are not that different), then for the 24-70 / 2.8L II to resolve more on the 5D3 than the 24-70 / 2.8G on the D800, the 24-70 / 2.8L II must be significantly sharper.

Exactly.  D800 sensor advantage quickly reduced by imperfect lens, so-called diminishing return.  Even Canon releases a 46mp camera, it will NOT have double resolution with the same 24-70L II.  DXOMark perceptual sharpness tests that roughly based on MTF-30 resolution explain these very well.  It's only matter form sensor-lens resolution/sharpness not sensor's paper resolution.

Did you read Hans' post?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51219749

I did.  Like I said, the D800 will resolve a maximum of 28% more linear detail than the 5D3, all else equal.  If it has a better lens, then more.  If it has a lesser lens, then it can even resolve less.

28% only on paper but in reality as Hans and others experienced, the difference is very small.

Again, a maximum of 28% -- let's say 14% on average.  I wonder how many could see a difference of 14% more linear detail.  More to the point, I wonder how many more would even care if they could notice.

system resolution.  Lens is the bottleneck.  You can squeeze 100mp into, but the resolution that human eyes can see are greatly reduce by imperfect lenses.

However, this is neither here nor there.  If the 5D3 had the D800 sensor (and, by the way, the 5D3 with the D800 sensor in the 6D body is nearly my ideal camera) then the 5D3 would have produced better photos still.

In theory yes. In reality if you only print to 20x30" or view to 4000-pixel wide, then the difference is hardly noticeable. Personally I don't believe cropping but native length lens.

Again, I refer you to the FF photographers going mFT for the exact same reasons (with the added bonus of a significantly smaller kit).

That is another topic.  Crop format has much bigger impact on IQ than amount of pixels difference.  The difference between 5D2/5D3 and mFT is much bigger than between 5d3/5D2 and D800.

Whether or not the photos would have been "enough better" to be worth the operational downsides is another matter entirely.

Agreed. So as DPR review said, you do need to use the best technique such as the best lenses and on tripod to fully leverage D800 resolution in order to print in excellent quality to billboard size 40x60", LOL.

But you can shoot handheld and still enjoy a substantial advantage.  I refer you again to my post that you not only agreed with, but added to:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51518848

P.S.:  I thought you were done with line-by-line replies.

Yes but just on different degree.  As I said, with hand-held you can get pretty sharp full size 5D3 files and excellent print quality to 20x30".  With D800, you don't get the same level of full size D800 files and similar print quality at 40x60".

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In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Educate me?

Educate?  Or should be discuss?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51523741

Always an opportunity for everyone to learn something new.

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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:

not sure why the second image above does not show up - but if you click on the empty frame with red x, it will open from the galler page?

Shows up for me...the system may be glitching

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In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Educate me?

Educate?  Or should be discuss?

Educate I think,  as what is really a 100% crop seems a known now. Perhaps correct would be a better word. I'm not sure. I simply like to learn.

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In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Very nice example. Thank you. If you don't mind... could you go here go here http://www.dpreview.com/members/settings/profile
And under the "allow download of originals"  check  "Allow visitors to download full size original images from your gallery" That way I can download the cropped imagae without fear of losing a pixel. Thank you

Done

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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

I picked the wrong image for the 100% crop - here's the correct one (a 550 pixel x 800 pixel 100% crop):

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qianp2k
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Re: *Sigh*
In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

I'm a firm believer in free speech.  Peter is absolutely free to speak his mind, as tiring as it can be, on occasion.  That said, I don't have to read, or respond, so it's only tiring because I choose to read and respond.

Me too.  I strongly believe debates even heated should be allowed as long as nobody violates DPR rules.

If he can let go of his blind Canon loyalty,

Not true, that is ONLY your speculation.  I never deny Nikon DR advantage and D800 resolution advantage.  I only dispute that you do need better technique to fully leverage higher pixel density camera such as D800, not just I said but DPR review said as well.

and you needed better technique going from the original 5D to the 5D2/5D3 as well if you wanted to maximize the benefit of the extra resolution - but it's not that hard to do and doesn't require a tripod all the time either.  Here's a handheld D800E shot:

- Full frame Image (resized to 50% as the original image is too large for DPReview Gallery which allows a max of a 20 MP image):

No problem, let's play the same ball   I reduced uncropped original photo to 2000-pixel wide.  5D3 with 100-400L, a much inferior zoom compared to the top 300G/2.8 VR prime you used, so not exactly a fair-game.  Imagine if I use 400L/2.8 IS II, hehe.

5D3+100-400L full scene

- Heavy Cropped Image (not reduced in size - so you can view at 100% if you want to):

Now here is 100% cropped on the pelican ONLY.  It's full size of the pelican.  I took at ISO 250 and the wing is under shadow.  You took at ISO 140 and the wing is sunlight lit.

above 5D3+100-400L 100% cropped

- An actual 100% crop (a 400 pixel x 500 pixel portion of the full size image):

Again, there is no difference by showing a small portion of photo and entire photo at original size that may not fit into your monitor.  You're pretty confused at this part.

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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Very nice example. Thank you. If you don't mind... could you go here go here http://www.dpreview.com/members/settings/profile
And under the "allow download of originals"  check  "Allow visitors to download full size original images from your gallery" That way I can download the cropped imagae without fear of losing a pixel. Thank you

Done

Thank you!  Much easier to examine. Nice detail.

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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:

I picked the wrong image for the 100% crop - here's the correct one (a 550 pixel x 800 pixel 100% crop):

which one has more details

It's old 100-400L/4.5-5.6 IS zoom vs Nkon top-gun 300G/2.8 VR.  It's 22mp vs 36mp; It's  ISO 250 shadow pulling vs ISO 140 sunlight lit.  It's The David vs. Goliath, hehe.

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In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

  I reduced uncropped original photo to 2000-pixel wide. 

5D3+100-400L full scene

- Heavy Cropped Image (not reduced in size - so you can view at 100% if you want to):

Now here is 100% cropped on the pelican ONLY.

above 5D3+100-400L 100% cropped

there is no difference by showing a small portion of photo and entire photo at original size that may not fit into your monitor.

I think your wording might be adding to your confusion

Obviously less resolution in the 5D pic but I'm a little surprised at the noise in the blue channel at ISO 240. You think that's due to the +2/3 EV you have set?  Your image is at 350 PPI...was that by design?

Love the colors!!

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Re: *Sigh*
In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

jjnik wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

I'm a firm believer in free speech.  Peter is absolutely free to speak his mind, as tiring as it can be, on occasion.  That said, I don't have to read, or respond, so it's only tiring because I choose to read and respond.

Me too.  I strongly believe debates even heated should be allowed as long as nobody violates DPR rules.

If he can let go of his blind Canon loyalty,

Not true, that is ONLY your speculation.  I never deny Nikon DR advantage and D800 resolution advantage.  I only dispute that you do need better technique to fully leverage higher pixel density camera such as D800, not just I said but DPR review said as well.

and you needed better technique going from the original 5D to the 5D2/5D3 as well if you wanted to maximize the benefit of the extra resolution - but it's not that hard to do and doesn't require a tripod all the time either.  Here's a handheld D800E shot:

- Full frame Image (resized to 50% as the original image is too large for DPReview Gallery which allows a max of a 20 MP image):

No problem, let's play the same ball   I reduced uncropped original photo to 2000-pixel wide.  5D3 with 100-400L, a much inferior zoom compared to the top 300G/2.8 VR prime you used, so not exactly a fair-game.  Imagine if I use 400L/2.8 IS II, hehe.

5D3+100-400L full scene

- Heavy Cropped Image (not reduced in size - so you can view at 100% if you want to):

Now here is 100% cropped on the pelican ONLY.  It's full size of the pelican.  I took at ISO 250 and the wing is under shadow.  You took at ISO 140 and the wing is sunlight lit.

5D3+100-400L, 100% cropped.

Ummmm... that is not a 100% crop as defined by every photographer I know - it is a cropped portion of the full size (non-resized) image - like the second image that I posted and not the 3rd image I posted which was a 100% crop (though it still appears not to display at full size in the post itself - close but not quite).

- An actual 100% crop (a 400 pixel x 500 pixel portion of the full size image):

Again, there is no difference by showing a small portion of photo and entire photo at original size that may not fit into your monitor.  You're pretty confused at this part.

...and the actual 100% crop/1:1 pixel view of my 36 MP image of a much smaller target in the frame (my photo) looks as sharp or sharper and is more detailed than yours ( I opened yours so I could actually see the 1:1 pixel view as, again, what you posted here is not a 100% crop) - sort of goes against what you claim is possible without a tripod for a 36 MP camera, doesn't it?

http://qianp2k.zenfolio.com/

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In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

  I reduced uncropped original photo to 2000-pixel wide. 

5D3+100-400L full scene

- Heavy Cropped Image (not reduced in size - so you can view at 100% if you want to):

Now here is 100% cropped on the pelican ONLY.

above 5D3+100-400L 100% cropped

there is no difference by showing a small portion of photo and entire photo at original size that may not fit into your monitor.

I think your wording might be adding to your confusion

Not that is your part.

Obviously less resolution in the 5D pic

less size. But it contains more textual details.  Check both birds' bodies, it's pretty clear my one contains more feather details.  Please be fair not because you're a Nikon shooter and many times I don't share with your opinions.

but I'm a little surprised at the noise in the blue channel at ISO 240.

ISO 250, blue channel is from reflection of blue ocean.  Think about, his photo taken at 1/4000 while my one taken at 1/1000.  Sure it's one stop difference of aperture f2.8 vs f5.6.  But still his photo received more light and obviously the bird got sunlight lit.  My pelican unfortunately was in shadow that together adding a bit of noise, not much and I can NR more that I can do later.

You think that's due to the +2/3 EV you have set?

Yes I use Evaluative metering since the bird was in shadow against bright sky, so added +2/3 EC.  You see I have to pull shadow.

Your image is at 350 PPI...was that by design?

?  Thru LR4 whatever but it's 100% cropped size.

Love the colors!!

Yes from 5DIII with well known pleasing Canon colors.

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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

qianp2k,

Your post shows you still don't get the 100% crop thing - here is the valid comparison you incorrectly displayed (these are both 550 pixel x 800 pixel 100% crops):

- From the 36 MP D800E:

- From the 22 MP 5D3:

Also - this is not about Nikon versus Canon, it is about correcting some misinformation on high MP cameras (I'm sure a high MP is Canon is coming at some point too).

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Re: Nice colors
In reply to qianp2k, May 25, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

  I reduced uncropped original photo to 2000-pixel wide. 

5D3+100-400L full scene

- Heavy Cropped Image (not reduced in size - so you can view at 100% if you want to):

Now here is 100% cropped on the pelican ONLY.

above 5D3+100-400L 100% cropped

there is no difference by showing a small portion of photo and entire photo at original size that may not fit into your monitor.

I think your wording might be adding to your confusion

Not that is your part

If so, why do you keep referring to the crop wrong? I think it might just be the "way" you word things. hard to tell.

Obviously less resolution in the 5D pic

less size. But it contains more textual details.

Yes...no way of getting around the 36MP advantage in that regard. It is impressive. And actually far less textural details in the 5D when you account for the different FOV presented in your example.

but I'm a little surprised at the noise in the blue channel at ISO 240.

ISO 250, blue channel is from reflection of blue ocean.

Understand...just a bit surprised at the level. Really stands out,  but in no way a real issue.

You think that's due to the +2/3 EV you have set?

Yes I use Evaluative metering since the bird was in shadow against bright sky, so added +2/3 EC.  You see I have to pull shadow.

Unfortunate. Just can't pull shadows as well as the Sony sensor. Toshiba sensor has the same "problem". We should all get Sony sensors in our DSLR's

Your image is at 350 PPI...was that by design?

?  Thru LR4 whatever but it's 100% cropped size.

Not so sure about that based on the 1997 x1313 at 350 ppi (23.3 mp) . Check the math maybe?

Love the colors!!

Yes from 5DIII with well known pleasing Canon colors.

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In reply to jjnik, May 25, 2013

jjnik wrote:

qianp2k,

Your post shows you still don't get the 100% crop thing - here is the valid comparison you incorrectly displayed (these are both 550 pixel x 800 pixel 100% crops):

- From the 36 MP D800E:

- From the 22 MP 5D3:

Also - this is not about Nikon versus Canon, it is about correcting some misinformation on high MP cameras (I'm sure a high MP is Canon is coming at some point too).

I was trying to match crop while you posted...thanks for saving me some effort. I hate math

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qianp2k
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be fair please
In reply to Mako2011, May 25, 2013

I don't expect you will be fair as you seldom are.  So whatever you said..

Check two birds. My one obviously has more feather details on both birds' bodies and wings.  Sure my one is a little bit noisy (higher ISO and in shadow) that I can add a bit more smart NR, and that little noise will not show up on prints that effectively NR.  No mention a prosumer zoom 100-400L vs a professional prime 300G/2.8 VR.  I just randomly picked this one at similar cropping level.  I do have better ones that better lit under sunlight but may not in the similar cropping level that will show noticeable per-pixel IQ.

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