What might go wrong with GX2

Started May 23, 2013 | Discussions
TORN
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

To me the worst would be if they accidently forget to build in an EVF like Olympus did with the E-P5. If they add a tilting screen in Nex fashion as well they will have my attention. If the screen is touchsensitive and the ergonomics of the camera is great I might buy one.

I guess from the technical perspective all will be well - more or less.

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s_grins
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to agachart, May 24, 2013

agachart wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Well, after a all I see that the best way for me to highlight your wrong thinking is to send you to your original post and ask you:

Do you try to compare this rumoured GX2 to E-M5? This is a honor for GX2. I did not expect this

Do you want to complain that rumoured GX2 can kill sales of E-P5? Yes, it can. So what? You will buy E-P5 because it has IBIS.

-- hide signature --

Looking for equilibrium...

and if (most possible) GX2 has IBIS?

If GX2 has IBIS, than OP will buy it with the overcry that Olympus betrayed his hopes and expectations

why?

Read OP

-- hide signature --

Looking for equilibrium...

 s_grins's gear list:s_grins's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Vario 45-200mm F4-5.6 OIS Sigma 30mm F2.8 EX DN +2 more
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peevee1
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to s_grins, May 24, 2013

s_grins wrote:

Well, after a all I see that the best way for me to highlight your wrong thinking is to send you to your original post and ask you:

Do you try to compare this rumoured GX2 to E-M5? This is a honor for GX2. I did not expect this

I do. I remember GX1 with 14-42 PZ was priced at $950 in our local store, and suspect this one will be priced similarly or higher. Only, if it has EVF, it will probably NOT be GX2, but something like GL1.

Do you want to complain that rumoured GX2 can kill sales of E-P5? Yes, it can. So what? You will buy E-P5 because it has IBIS.

I will not buy E-P5. The only thing truly missing from E-M5 for me is faster tracking, but I doubt even that feature alone will entice me to buy a replacement.

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amtberg
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

First things first. What MIGHT go wrong? Isn't a little premature at this point? Yes, it is. Just like the rumors which, I suspect, were released deliberately to save some market from going to E-M5 and E-P5, also very prematurely, 3 months before RUMORED ANNOUNCEMENT, not even release (compare to the rumors about GF6, for example, just days before announcement).

So let's discuss what might go wrong with GX2 as rumored, and not abstractly, but in comparison to these competitors the leak was directed against.

By decreasing probability:

1) No weather sealing (compared to E-M5) - almost certainly

Probably correct, but not a big deal IMO.

2) Less effective IBIS (compared to 5-axis in E-M5 and E-P5) - almost certainly

My guess is that it will be Panny's hybrid IS which will give equivalent or better performance to Oly's 5-axis IF used in conjunction with in-lens IS.

3) No articulating screen - almost certainly

Agree, although "almost certainly" is to strong.

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

I'd say there's a low probability there.

5) Low readout speed from the old sensor=lower AF speed - high probability (see above)

Very low probability.  Even the G6 has high readout speed.

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

Again, very low probability.  See recent 43Rumor.

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Too high is a relative term.  I would expect the first MFT rangefinder with built-in EVF, IBIS, and new sensor to command a high price.

All rumors and guessmongering.

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tt321
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

That would mean death of Pana sensor division, and/or price of the camera closer to GH3 than at/below G6 where it belongs. Don't think so.

Do you know the % of work that division does for compacts/phones compared with M43. Losing the entire M43 market would not necessarily kill that division.

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Andy Crowe
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On the sensor and EVF
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013
4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

The GH2 sensor has never been advertised as 18mp (you could only ever get 16mp images out of it), so if it's true that the GX2 has the "highest resolution 4/3rds sensor yet" then it must be a new 18mp effective sensor rather than the 16mp effective sensor of the GH2. Of course being rumours they may be making up the highest resolution claim themselves but at this point we can't know one way or the other.

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

What's wrong with those EVFs? The quality is great even at 640x480, an 800x600 or 1024x768 version would be outstanding. (Unless you also think all sequential DLP projectors are junk too).

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peevee1
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to amtberg, May 24, 2013

amtberg wrote:


6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

Again, very low probability.  See recent 43Rumor.

What do you mean? This: "And from what I read from the patent It could have an anti-alias filter and a new resolution EVF (close to 2 Mio)."? Sound like gibberish, and anyway, patents don't spell out specs.

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Too high is a relative term.  I would expect the first MFT rangefinder with built-in EVF, IBIS, and new sensor to command a high price.

Higher than NEX-6 - then it is dead in the water.

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peevee1
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Re: On the sensor and EVF
In reply to Andy Crowe, May 24, 2013

Andy Crowe wrote:

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

The GH2 sensor has never been advertised as 18mp (you could only ever get 16mp images out of it),

We are not talking about advertizement, we are talking about rumors about specifications - and the GH2 sensor is indeed specified as 18 mpix.


6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

What's wrong with those EVFs? The quality is great even at 640x480, an 800x600 or 1024x768 version would be outstanding. (Unless you also think all sequential DLP projectors are junk too).

What is wrong? Low real resolution (400kpix or so) and crazy sh!t colors when panning. We are comparing with E-M5 and VF-4, which are simply so much better.

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dinoSnake
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to agachart, May 24, 2013

agachart wrote:

Sound look like you fear about rumors !!! ha ha ha boy

don't b afraid,i and all people still unknown about this rumors,

but  trust source report like 1/8000,100 ISO and better IBIS on E-P5 and all come true on E-P5!!!

don't worry ha ha ha

I know, right?    People come up with ideas of what these companies should do because it is what they want, their "dream" product.  Some of the ideas frequently thrown around, in regards to almost every early phase product "rumor", simply make no business sense but there are always their dreams.

Hey, why not make the not-top-of-the-line product have the new tech, tech not even available in your best?  Isn't that ALWAYS the way Japan Inc. does things? [/s]  Yep, yep, we can expect the new DMC-GF7 to feature the new 20MP mFT sensor, IBIS, ISO 50,000 with pixel binning, wireless flash, fully articulated screen and all in a body the size of an LX7!  Fantastic!  I want one now!

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Dheorl
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

amtberg wrote:

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Too high is a relative term.  I would expect the first MFT rangefinder with built-in EVF, IBIS, and new sensor to command a high price.

Higher than NEX-6 - then it is dead in the water.

Really? And why is that?

The EP5 is way more expensive than any non VF NEX camera. Hell, I think even the EPL-5 is and that doesn't even have the excuse of being brand new or having 5-axis IBIS. AFAIK neither of those cameras would be considered "dead in the water" so why would a panasonic camera be if it's priced above what some would see as the equivalent NEX?

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Dheorl
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Re: On the sensor and EVF
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Andy Crowe wrote:

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

The GH2 sensor has never been advertised as 18mp (you could only ever get 16mp images out of it),

We are not talking about advertizement, we are talking about rumors about specifications - and the GH2 sensor is indeed specified as 18 mpix.


6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

What's wrong with those EVFs? The quality is great even at 640x480, an 800x600 or 1024x768 version would be outstanding. (Unless you also think all sequential DLP projectors are junk too).

What is wrong? Low real resolution (400kpix or so) and crazy sh!t colors when panning. We are comparing with E-M5 and VF-4, which are simply so much better.

I personally much prefer the GH2s EVF to the EM5 EVF. I just find it bigger, brigter and clearer. Maybe it's cos I don't go wizzing my camera from left to right all the time, but even shooting sports I've never had any issues.

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amtberg
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Re: On the sensor and EVF
In reply to Dheorl, May 24, 2013

Dheorl wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Andy Crowe wrote:

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

The GH2 sensor has never been advertised as 18mp (you could only ever get 16mp images out of it),

We are not talking about advertizement, we are talking about rumors about specifications - and the GH2 sensor is indeed specified as 18 mpix.


6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

What's wrong with those EVFs? The quality is great even at 640x480, an 800x600 or 1024x768 version would be outstanding. (Unless you also think all sequential DLP projectors are junk too).

What is wrong? Low real resolution (400kpix or so) and crazy sh!t colors when panning. We are comparing with E-M5 and VF-4, which are simply so much better.

I personally much prefer the GH2s EVF to the EM5 EVF. I just find it bigger, brigter and clearer. Maybe it's cos I don't go wizzing my camera from left to right all the time, but even shooting sports I've never had any issues.

I agree.  Also the GH3's EVF is similar to the EM5's.  It's just let down by the optic in front of it.

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Revenant
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Re: On the sensor and EVF
In reply to peevee1, May 25, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Andy Crowe wrote:

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

The GH2 sensor has never been advertised as 18mp (you could only ever get 16mp images out of it),

We are not talking about advertizement, we are talking about rumors about specifications - and the GH2 sensor is indeed specified as 18 mpix.

Sure, in the spec sheets it says 18 MP total pixel count, but it also says 16 MP effective pixel count, and that's the number that was quoted in the advertising. In the original press release, for example, you can read about "the newly developed 16.05-megapixel multi-aspect Live MOS Sensor". And that's how people usually talk about the pixel count of sensors. The GH3 or E-PL5, for example, have never been referred to as 17 MP cameras, neither in advertising, reviews or on rumor sites. They're 16 MP cameras, because that's the size of the images they output.

In other words, the GX2 sensor most likely have an effective pixel count of 18 MP. Of course, if you use the entire GH2 sensor, you do get 18 MP, but the image circle doesn't cover the whole sensor, which is slightly larger than a standard 4/3 sensor. The corners of the sensor aren't covered. This suggests a new 18 MP sensor is being used in the GX2.

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Sean Nelson
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Re: On the sensor and EVF
In reply to Revenant, May 25, 2013

Revenant wrote:

Sure, in the spec sheets it says 18 MP total pixel count, but it also says 16 MP effective pixel count, and that's the number that was quoted in the advertising...

In other words, the GX2 sensor most likely have an effective pixel count of 18 MP...

You guys realize that we're talking about an unannounced camera whose specs we know only because of an unofficial leak, right?  It's pointless to assume the same degree of rigor for leaked specs that you'd see in an advertisement for an announced product.

Be patient, we'll know the real story soon enough.

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Revenant
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Re: On the sensor and EVF
In reply to Sean Nelson, May 25, 2013

Sean Nelson wrote:

Revenant wrote:

Sure, in the spec sheets it says 18 MP total pixel count, but it also says 16 MP effective pixel count, and that's the number that was quoted in the advertising...

In other words, the GX2 sensor most likely have an effective pixel count of 18 MP...

You guys realize that we're talking about an unannounced camera whose specs we know only because of an unofficial leak, right?  It's pointless to assume the same degree of rigor for leaked specs that you'd see in an advertisement for an announced product.

Be patient, we'll know the real story soon enough.

Such rational, common sense reasoning is rare in a camera gear forum. But you're right, of course.

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Rol Lei Nut
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to dinoSnake, May 26, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

IBIS makes no sense, considering Panasonic's investment in OIS.  No sense AT ALL.  Why this fanboy fantasy?  Panasonic decided upon OIS and has stuck with it, even in their brand new, top-line model; Panasonic believes OIS gives them the advantage during video filming.

There I have to seriously disagree. IBIS makes makes a lot of sense: if it had it, then I (and presumably many others) would seriously consider buying a GX2 instead of only looking at IBIS equipped Olympus bodies.

IBIS really IS a deal breaker for many...

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peevee1
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to Dheorl, May 26, 2013

Dheorl wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

amtberg wrote:

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Too high is a relative term.  I would expect the first MFT rangefinder with built-in EVF, IBIS, and new sensor to command a high price.

Higher than NEX-6 - then it is dead in the water.

Really? And why is that?

It is called competition in the price sensitive segment of the market.

The EP5 is way more expensive than any non VF NEX camera.

And it is overpriced. Of course, metal body, full controls and IBIS make it better than any non VF NEX camera. But still its sales will be small if Oly does not reduce price immediately (fire sales in 2 years as with E-P3 will not help as too much better competition will be there).

Hell, I think even the EPL-5

You think wrong, the current E-PL5 price of $500 with 14-42 is reasonable.

is and that doesn't even have the excuse of being brand new or having 5-axis IBIS. AFAIK neither of those cameras would be considered "dead in the water" so why would a panasonic camera be if it's priced above what some would see as the equivalent NEX?

Not "a panasonic camera", but a camera directly competing with NEX-6 feature for feature, only having smaller sensor and NOT having tilting screen, cannot be priced more. What will the Pana have that NEX-6 does not? Pana brand is not stronger than Sony, tilting-up EVF is useless (unlike tilting screen), Pana 14-42PZ is not as convenient as Sony 16-50 PZ. EVF is not going to be any better than 2.4mpix Sony in NEX-6. IBIS - let's hope it works.

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peevee1
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Re: On the sensor and EVF
In reply to Revenant, May 26, 2013

Revenant wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Andy Crowe wrote:

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

The GH2 sensor has never been advertised as 18mp (you could only ever get 16mp images out of it),

We are not talking about advertizement, we are talking about rumors about specifications - and the GH2 sensor is indeed specified as 18 mpix.

Sure, in the spec sheets it says 18 MP total pixel count, but it also says 16 MP effective pixel count, and that's the number that was quoted in the advertising. In the original press release,

Again, we are NOT talking about advertising or press releases. What is so hard to understand?

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Dheorl
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 26, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Dheorl wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

amtberg wrote:

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Too high is a relative term.  I would expect the first MFT rangefinder with built-in EVF, IBIS, and new sensor to command a high price.

Higher than NEX-6 - then it is dead in the water.

Really? And why is that?

It is called competition in the price sensitive segment of the market.

The EP5 is way more expensive than any non VF NEX camera.

And it is overpriced. Of course, metal body, full controls and IBIS make it better than any non VF NEX camera. But still its sales will be small if Oly does not reduce price immediately (fire sales in 2 years as with E-P3 will not help as too much better competition will be there).

The GX1 has metal body and full controls, all it's lacking is the IBIS and that camera can be had for a song.

Hell, I think even the EPL-5

You think wrong, the current E-PL5 price of $500 with 14-42 is reasonable.

It is however still more than competeing NEX cameras (in the UK at least)... I think right.

is and that doesn't even have the excuse of being brand new or having 5-axis IBIS. AFAIK neither of those cameras would be considered "dead in the water" so why would a panasonic camera be if it's priced above what some would see as the equivalent NEX?

Not "a panasonic camera", but a camera directly competing with NEX-6 feature for feature, only having smaller sensor and NOT having tilting screen, cannot be priced more. What will the Pana have that NEX-6 does not? Pana brand is not stronger than Sony, tilting-up EVF is useless (unlike tilting screen), Pana 14-42PZ is not as convenient as Sony 16-50 PZ. EVF is not going to be any better than 2.4mpix Sony in NEX-6. IBIS - let's hope it works.

We don't know if it will have a tilting screen or not, hell we don't even know if it will have a VF or be called the GX2.

Tones of people praise the add on EVFs for their ability to tilt and claim to use them regulary. Go tell them that tilting EVFs are useless. If I had one I can certainly see myself enjoying it's functionality. Infact for what I was shooting just yesterday (low angle with a tele lens) a tilting EVF would have been a godsend. I could have had a stable position without having my face right in the dirt as every other photographer had. As it was I used my tilting screen and coped with having slightly shakey/misframed photos.

As I say, other cameras clearly competeing with the NEX cameras but priced higher than their equivilents are doing just fine. Why would whatever panasnic comes out wth be any different?

If the GX1 is anything to go by it will probably have a better build than the NEX, be more user friendly, produce better video, have a more complete flash system and better native lens selection.

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zaurus
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Take into consideration the target market
In reply to peevee1, May 26, 2013

When listing expected shortcomings please bear in mind the main target market. Which is street/environment/travel enthusiasts who (occasionally) use legacy lenses.

peevee1 wrote:

1) No weather sealing (compared to E-M5) - almost certainly

Correct. But not that needed for the target market.

2) Less effective IBIS (compared to 5-axis in E-M5 and E-P5) - almost certainly

Correct, as it is the first version (unless Pana has licensed the technology from somebody). Still quite useful for legacy lenses and pancakes for both photo and video.

3) No articulating screen - almost certainly

Correct. However, most photos are taken from a lower vantage point compared to a higher one, so a tilting EVF is very welcome. An articulating screen would be very useful for video on a tripod, but this scenario is unlikely for the target market.

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

I would not mind the GH2 sensor if it is a multi-aspect one and further tweaked for better highlight preservation and better high ISO which can be done as shown in the GX1. It will drive the cost down by at least $50, probably more.

5) Low readout speed from the old sensor=lower AF speed - high probability (see above)

Autofocus speed and accuracy will be sufficient for the target market and definitely better than the Nex-6.

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

No, I doubt that.

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

You are correct it would compete against the Nex-6.

But it will also have a metal body.

If the GX2 also has wireless flash control, a better grip (possibly hosting the battery), focus peaking, a lens release button on the right-hand side (so that one can swap lenses without changing hand position or one can use a hand strap) in kit with version II of the collapsible 14-42 PZ -- the kit costing $800 -- it will be very competitive.

So yeah, in short, a Panasonic version of the Nex-6 -- which is loooooong overdue.

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