What might go wrong with GX2

Started May 23, 2013 | Discussions
peevee1
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What might go wrong with GX2
May 23, 2013

First things first. What MIGHT go wrong? Isn't a little premature at this point? Yes, it is. Just like the rumors which, I suspect, were released deliberately to save some market from going to E-M5 and E-P5, also very prematurely, 3 months before RUMORED ANNOUNCEMENT, not even release (compare to the rumors about GF6, for example, just days before announcement).

So let's discuss what might go wrong with GX2 as rumored, and not abstractly, but in comparison to these competitors the leak was directed against.

By decreasing probability:

1) No weather sealing (compared to E-M5) - almost certainly

2) Less effective IBIS (compared to 5-axis in E-M5 and E-P5) - almost certainly

3) No articulating screen - almost certainly

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

5) Low readout speed from the old sensor=lower AF speed - high probability (see above)

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

As I am happy as a clam to hear that my favorite electronics company developed IBIS - which would allow it to compete better in m43 market, truly merge the lens system (non OIS lenses would become so much more useful for us handheld shooters) and maybe prevent Pana's exit from the market, I am afraid to get too excited just yet. Any 2, maximum 3 of the potential problems from the list above will make it not very competitive with already existing offers in $800+ range, and I'll doubt they will make much profit at lower prices served by $500 (with kit lenses) E-PL5 and NEX-5r.

What do you think?

LMNCT
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 23, 2013

The first thing that is obviously wrong is the 18mp sensor....since it is a 16mp.

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jalywol
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 23, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

First things first. What MIGHT go wrong? Isn't a little premature at this point? Yes, it is. Just like the rumors which, I suspect, were released deliberately to save some market from going to E-M5 and E-P5, also very prematurely, 3 months before RUMORED ANNOUNCEMENT, not even release (compare to the rumors about GF6, for example, just days before announcement).

So let's discuss what might go wrong with GX2 as rumored, and not abstractly, but in comparison to these competitors the leak was directed against.

By decreasing probability:

1) No weather sealing (compared to E-M5) - almost certainly

Agree

2) Less effective IBIS (compared to 5-axis in E-M5 and E-P5) - almost certainly

Agree

3) No articulating screen - almost certainly

Agree

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

I really disagree on this one

5) Low readout speed from the old sensor=lower AF speed - high probability (see above)

Disagree

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

Panasonic has usually made pretty good EVFs actually (with a few notable misses). My suspicion is that they might be using the Epson really tiny and very good chip in this one (like the VF-4)...not sure they could fit the thing in body otherwise.

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Always too high a price at initial release, but that's true of ALL M43s so far, perhaps with the exception of the EM5, which was high but not stratospheric for the technology it contained.

As I am happy as a clam to hear that my favorite electronics company developed IBIS - which would allow it to compete better in m43 market, truly merge the lens system (non OIS lenses would become so much more useful for us handheld shooters) and maybe prevent Pana's exit from the market, I am afraid to get too excited just yet. Any 2, maximum 3 of the potential problems from the list above will make it not very competitive with already existing offers in $800+ range, and I'll doubt they will make much profit at lower prices served by $500 (with kit lenses) E-PL5 and NEX-5r.

What do you think?

My guess is that it will have a new sensor....Don't know if it will be in house or Sony, but am thinking it might be the one that Oly/Sony had that patent for with the PDAF sections embedded in the sensor...that would keep output at about 16MP but have the extra info for PDAF on the other 2MB of sites.

I would guess they are trying to capture the PEN thunder here, and they are probably well aware that the old 18MP sensor is not going to do that, tweaked or not....

We shall see....

-J

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dinoSnake
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 23, 2013

Wow.  One web site creates a fantasy of 'confirmed' rumor...and everyone jumps on board as this being the most likely truth.

Let's stop with the fanboyisms and get with some solid analysis.  Let's talk from both a business and design perspective:

Going with the old 18MP mult-format sensor of the GH2 does not sound all too good an option, considering that Panasonic itself seems to be moving away from that direction by using a new, 16MP single-format sensor on the brand new GH3.  Now that the GH2 is discontinued keeping production going on a single sensor design to be used in a single camera is unprofitable; this is probably the reason why you are seeing more and more Panasonic designs introduced with the 16MP sensor.

So using the old, slower 18MP sensor is OUT.  Makes no business sense from the silicon fab point of view, makes not business sense from the marketing point of view (a new GX2, Panasonic's top-line rangefinder-style body, with slower AF and lower DR than the EM-5, E-P5, GH3 *and* G6?!).

IBIS makes no sense, considering Panasonic's investment in OIS.  No sense AT ALL.  Why this fanboy fantasy?  Panasonic decided upon OIS and has stuck with it, even in their brand new, top-line model; Panasonic believes OIS gives them the advantage during video filming.

EVF sounds like a good possibility.  The problem?  It will change the body size.  Period.  Either the body will grow to incorporate both the EVF and the built-in flash or the flash will be external, both can NOT fit into the current sized body. The flash tube and mechanism is about the same size as the EVF assembly.  Both can NOT fit into the current body at the same time while still keeping the same overall design.  If they 'shift' the entire top plate design to the right - push the shutter button closer to the right side, eliminate both the iA and movie buttons, and shift the hot shoe to the right - they just MIGHT have enough room for the flash tube in the center with an EVF on the left.

JUST might.  More likely, you'll see a body size increase.

So, conversely, if you like the size of the GX1 body with the current feature set (built-in flash) - better get them while they're hot.  Looks like this size body won't last for long, judging from the GH3 and G6 introductions.

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peevee1
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to jalywol, May 23, 2013

jalywol wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

I really disagree on this one

Why? They have done it before. And 18 mpix sounds suspiciously like GH2. Why not at least 20 (for marketing reasons and at least it would make SMALL difference, vs practically NO difference between 16 and 18)? With 18 mpix Canons, 20 mpix Samsungs, RX100 and A58 (and I am sure many future cams), 24 mpix NEX-7 and Nikons they have to go higher with a new gen sensor - a lot of people still buy megapixels.

5) Low readout speed from the old sensor=lower AF speed - high probability (see above)

Disagree

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

Panasonic has usually made pretty good EVFs actually (with a few notable misses). My suspicion is that they might be using the Epson really tiny and very good chip in this one (like the VF-4)...not sure they could fit the thing in body otherwise.

Good? Remember, we compare to E-M5 and VF-4 and NEX-6. Only GH3 comes close (let's forget about corner softness for a moment) - but it is huge and would not fit into the rangefinder form factor.

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Always too high a price at initial release, but that's true of ALL M43s so far, perhaps with the exception of the EM5, which was high but not stratospheric for the technology it contained.

Not all, Pana G3/G5/G6 and Oly E-PM2 were more or less reasonably priced for what they are.

My guess is that it will have a new sensor....Don't know if it will be in house or Sony, but am thinking it might be the one that Oly/Sony had that patent for with the PDAF sections embedded in the sensor...that would keep output at about 16MP but have the extra info for PDAF on the other 2MB of sites.

That would mean death of Pana sensor division, and/or price of the camera closer to GH3 than at/below G6 where it belongs. Don't think so.

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peevee1
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to dinoSnake, May 23, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

Wow.  One web site creates a fantasy of 'confirmed' rumor...and everyone jumps on board as this being the most likely truth.

Let's stop with the fanboyisms and get with some solid analysis.  Let's talk from both a business and design perspective:

Going with the old 18MP mult-format sensor of the GH2 does not sound all too good an option, considering that Panasonic itself seems to be moving away from that direction by using a new, 16MP single-format sensor on the brand new GH3.

It is a Sony sensor, they went with higher total price for them to make their top-of-the line $1300 body only GH3 at least on par with only every Oly competitor (basically, they had no choice, nobody would take GH3 seriously with the old Pana sensor). And this is the only camera where the sensor was used.

Now that the GH2 is discontinued keeping production going on a single sensor design to be used in a single camera is unprofitable; this is probably the reason why you are seeing more and more Panasonic designs introduced with the 16MP sensor.

Wrong, they use GH2 sensor in G5, G6 and if I remember correctly in GF6 too, just don't use its MAR ability.

So using the old, slower 18MP sensor is OUT.  Makes no business sense from the silicon fab point of view, makes not business sense from the marketing point of view (a new GX2, Panasonic's top-line rangefinder-style body, with slower AF and lower DR than the EM-5, E-P5, GH3 *and* G6?!).

You think stopping the factory and buying from a competitor is better? No way.

IBIS makes no sense, considering Panasonic's investment in OIS.  No sense AT ALL.  Why this fanboy fantasy?  Panasonic decided upon OIS and has stuck with it, even in their brand new, top-line model; Panasonic believes OIS gives them the advantage during video filming.

A lot of m43 and all legacy (including Panasonic's own) lenses don't have OIS, excluding them all just make the market for their cameras so much smaller. And exactly for video, where stabilization is essential always, in any light, and use of manual focus lenses is very much prevalent and justified, IBIS is a great asset.

EVF sounds like a good possibility.  The problem?  It will change the body size.  Period.  Either the body will grow to incorporate both the EVF and the built-in flash or the flash will be external, both can NOT fit into the current sized body. The flash tube and mechanism is about the same size as the EVF assembly.  Both can NOT fit into the current body at the same time while still keeping the same overall design.  If they 'shift' the entire top plate design to the right - push the shutter button closer to the right side, eliminate both the iA and movie buttons, and shift the hot shoe to the right - they just MIGHT have enough room for the flash tube in the center with an EVF on the left.

JUST might.  More likely, you'll see a body size increase.

Sure, but it is not just about size (they have GF for that), it is about left-side corner placement which is somewhat more convenient than the one in E-M5, and total height, which can still be lower than E-M5. Even if body is made a little wider, but lower than E-M5, it is still going to fit better into jacket pockets, narrow messenger bags etc. This would be an advantage, but is that advantage as big as any of the possible disadvantages I listed, let alone 2 or 3?

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EEmu
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to dinoSnake, May 23, 2013
IBIS makes no sense, considering Panasonic's investment in OIS.  No sense AT ALL.  Why this fanboy fantasy?  Panasonic decided upon OIS and has stuck with it, even in their brand new, top-line model; Panasonic believes OIS gives them the advantage during video filming.

This has been covered often.

Panasonic has been working on something like this for... a... while.  And it makes use of OIS too, so the argument that this obsoletes OIS is totally invalid.  Moreover this was a feature initially introduced in video cameras.

So, yeah, it makes plenty of sense.  Even beyond the simple fact of the matter that it makes good competition Olympus.

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highwave
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 23, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

I suspect, were released deliberately to save some market from going to E-M5 and E-P5,

I so so so agree with you on this. It's so darn obviously they did that it's downright embarrassing.  It's like children fighting. However I'm so happy to see Panasonic pulling no punches and going all out in competition. No corporate arrogance this time around.

By decreasing probability:

1) No weather sealing (compared to E-M5) - almost certainly

Agree

2) Less effective IBIS (compared to 5-axis in E-M5 and E-P5) - almost certainly

Agree, even the patent sort of shows that more or less

3) No articulating screen - almost certainly

nothing to indicate this

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

I don't think they'll use the old sensor. It seems they were really listening to customer demands on this one (even including styling like the L1!) so I believe they'll go all the way in satisfying customers by this one and not use a recycled sensor.

5) Low readout speed from the old sensor=lower AF speed - high probability (see above)

The old 18MP GH2 sensor can be called any freaking thing on earth except slow readout. That sensor is a freaking speed demon. I suspect it's faster than current Sony sensors. No way will the autofocus be slow. Even the current models using it (G5,G6) are better in AF than the Olys

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

I don't believe it will be anything bad. Certainly thus far Panasonic doesn't have a bad EVF on any of their m43 models. Only thing I could think of is if the smearing issue some report on the GH3 carries onto it. Other than that, I think it's covered.

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

Yes, I am suspicious that they will price it ridiculously. Just trying their best to ride out the GAS syndrome so prevalent in camera owners. They certainly attempted it on the GH3 and Oly attempts it now with the E-P5. If it doesn't work, they'll bring the price down as they always do.

And I don't see the NEX6 as being the competitor of the GX2. Simply because the NEX6 is a watered down cheap version of the NEX7, the flagship of that design as is the GX2 is the flagship of its category. They even crippled the dials on the NEX6 just to make sure no one confuses it with the king of the hill.

Also another worry that you didn't mention is size. How big will it be in the end? If it ends up being as chunky as those fat Fujis that need to go on a diet, then I'm not even considering it. What Panasonic did with the GH3 is just ridiculous  What were they thinking. You can even tell from this forum that most people weren't impressed by the fat camera. I hope the dietary problem of recent Panasonic models don't carry on to the GX2. That would be disgusting.

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s_grins
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 23, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

First things first. What MIGHT go wrong? Isn't a little premature at this point? Yes, it is. Just like the rumors which, I suspect, were released deliberately to save some market from going to E-M5 and E-P5, also very prematurely, 3 months before RUMORED ANNOUNCEMENT, not even release (compare to the rumors about GF6, for example, just days before announcement).

So let's discuss what might go wrong with GX2 as rumored, and not abstractly, but in comparison to these competitors the leak was directed against.

By decreasing probability:

1) No weather sealing (compared to E-M5) - almost certainly

2) Less effective IBIS (compared to 5-axis in E-M5 and E-P5) - almost certainly

3) No articulating screen - almost certainly

4) Old inferior 18-mpix sensor from GH2 - high probability (they promise a "new sensor" in every camera, in most cases it is a lie)

5) Low readout speed from the old sensor=lower AF speed - high probability (see above)

6) Low quality EVF, maybe 200kpix unit from LF1, or sequential junk from G-series - high probability (have to fit it over screen somehow).

7) Too high a price (with 14-42PZ) compared to $900-with-PZ-lens NEX-6 (direct competitor with 2.4Mpix EVF and articulating screen) - medium probability.

As I am happy as a clam to hear that my favorite electronics company developed IBIS - which would allow it to compete better in m43 market, truly merge the lens system (non OIS lenses would become so much more useful for us handheld shooters) and maybe prevent Pana's exit from the market, I am afraid to get too excited just yet. Any 2, maximum 3 of the potential problems from the list above will make it not very competitive with already existing offers in $800+ range, and I'll doubt they will make much profit at lower prices served by $500 (with kit lenses) E-PL5 and NEX-5r.

What do you think?

After all your pros and cons which I personally discard as a garbage, it is up to what camera to buy.

Vote for your brand by money!

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ssww
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 23, 2013

I am curious about what its AF system may be. I guess it will still be contrast detection, not on-sensor phase detection.

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Steven 2
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to ssww, May 24, 2013

I am not getting my hopes up.   I wouldn't be surprised if it's just another nicely built camera like GX1 with a sensor from G5/6 and no built-in viewfinder.  sort of like EP-5 .

Talk of flip up viewfinder make me wonder though if they finally managed to engineer what I was always hoping for - a modular body where you can slide in a viewfinder that you buy separately if you want it.  but in a slot inside the body, not on top of it like current designs.

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peevee1
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to s_grins, May 24, 2013

s_grins wrote:

Vote for your brand by money!

Why would I vote for a brand vs a better product?

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Hen3ry
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LOL. it's called keeping the lid on your expectations! :) nt
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

Cheers, geoff

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s_grins
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Vote for your brand by money!

Why would I vote for a brand vs a better product?

So vote with your money for what you believe is a better product. For me IBIS, OIS, and all other IS are negative, so I'll vote my way. Also I prefer camera's contemporary exterior design, so I'll vote my way.

Any way, I do it privately and for myself.

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s_grins
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

Well, after a all I see that the best way for me to highlight your wrong thinking is to send you to your original post and ask you:

Do you try to compare this rumoured GX2 to E-M5? This is a honor for GX2. I did not expect this

Do you want to complain that rumoured GX2 can kill sales of E-P5? Yes, it can. So what? You will buy E-P5 because it has IBIS.

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Timmbits
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to peevee1, May 24, 2013

You are joking right?

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agachart
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to s_grins, May 24, 2013

s_grins wrote:

Well, after a all I see that the best way for me to highlight your wrong thinking is to send you to your original post and ask you:

Do you try to compare this rumoured GX2 to E-M5? This is a honor for GX2. I did not expect this

Do you want to complain that rumoured GX2 can kill sales of E-P5? Yes, it can. So what? You will buy E-P5 because it has IBIS.

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and if (most possible) GX2 has IBIS?

why?

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agachart
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to Timmbits, May 24, 2013

Timmbits wrote:

You are joking right?

when rumors site had leak and more increase possibly ,

and now rumors spec was confirmed and they(site) talk about new sensor ,new AF ,what is Live View

type?

then anyone disagree ,dislike ,wrong with GX2 rumors.

ok this time has no prototype ,or lumix technical interview.

what about wrong thing of this rumors ? are you (pana-hate)fanboylism or other brand fanboy,

or are you worry about leaked these specs? ha ha ha

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agachart
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Re: What might go wrong with GX2
In reply to dinoSnake, May 24, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

Wow.  One web site creates a fantasy of 'confirmed' rumor...and everyone jumps on board as this being the most likely truth.

Let's stop with the fanboyisms and get with some solid analysis.  Let's talk from both a business and design perspective:

Going with the old 18MP mult-format sensor of the GH2 does not sound all too good an option, considering that Panasonic itself seems to be moving away from that direction by using a new, 16MP single-format sensor on the brand new GH3.  Now that the GH2 is discontinued keeping production going on a single sensor design to be used in a single camera is unprofitable; this is probably the reason why you are seeing more and more Panasonic designs introduced with the 16MP sensor.

So using the old, slower 18MP sensor is OUT.  Makes no business sense from the silicon fab point of view, makes not business sense from the marketing point of view (a new GX2, Panasonic's top-line rangefinder-style body, with slower AF and lower DR than the EM-5, E-P5, GH3 *and* G6?!).

IBIS makes no sense, considering Panasonic's investment in OIS.  No sense AT ALL.  Why this fanboy fantasy?  Panasonic decided upon OIS and has stuck with it, even in their brand new, top-line model; Panasonic believes OIS gives them the advantage during video filming.

EVF sounds like a good possibility.  The problem?  It will change the body size.  Period.  Either the body will grow to incorporate both the EVF and the built-in flash or the flash will be external, both can NOT fit into the current sized body. The flash tube and mechanism is about the same size as the EVF assembly.  Both can NOT fit into the current body at the same time while still keeping the same overall design.  If they 'shift' the entire top plate design to the right - push the shutter button closer to the right side, eliminate both the iA and movie buttons, and shift the hot shoe to the right - they just MIGHT have enough room for the flash tube in the center with an EVF on the left.

JUST might.  More likely, you'll see a body size increase.

So, conversely, if you like the size of the GX1 body with the current feature set (built-in flash) - better get them while they're hot.  Looks like this size body won't last for long, judging from the GH3 and G6 introductions.

Sound look like you fear about rumors !!! ha ha ha boy

don't b afraid,i and all people still unknown about this rumors,

but  trust source report like 1/8000,100 ISO and better IBIS on E-P5 and all come true on E-P5!!!

don't worry ha ha ha

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Franka T.L.
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:) lol ... but there's some truth there - n/t
In reply to Hen3ry, May 24, 2013
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- Franka -

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