why not f/1.2 by Sony?

Started May 14, 2013 | Discussions
stan_pustylnik
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,532Gear list
Like?
why not f/1.2 by Sony?
May 14, 2013

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

-- hide signature --

Person is taking photos, not camera. When photograph is bad, it's because photographer doesn't know how to choose settings optimal to "own preferences". Then blames camera for bad IQ.
This is same as blaming car about arriving to wrong destination.
http://stan-pustylnik.smugmug.com

 stan_pustylnik's gear list:stan_pustylnik's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS2 Sony Alpha DSLR-A850
TiagoReil
Senior MemberPosts: 1,529Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

-- hide signature --

Person is taking photos, not camera. When photograph is bad, it's because photographer doesn't know how to choose settings optimal to "own preferences". Then blames camera for bad IQ.
This is same as blaming car about arriving to wrong destination.
http://stan-pustylnik.smugmug.com

BEcause of

A-Target Audience

B-Real advantage not worth it.

A-The target audience of APS-C and DT lenses is consumer photographers. Not P&S, but not Advance amateurs or pros. A 1.2 lens would mean an expensive (and big) lens, and wont sell many of those.

B-In reality, a 1.2 isnt giving 1 stop of light compared to a 1.8. IT is giving less. This is the nature of digital sensors. The bigger the sensor, the more they can get from a 1.2. The smaller, the less. So, in fact, sony is not making not even 1.2 for FF. They are making 1.4 for FF, and 1.8 for DT/aps-c lenses.

even fuji recognizes it, point 2:

http://www.finepix-x100.com/en/story

 TiagoReil's gear list:TiagoReil's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-5 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony 85mm F2.8 SAM Sigma 70mm F2.8 EX DG Macro +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Trollmann
Senior MemberPosts: 1,311
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

Most likely because fast lenses tend to become expensive, heavy and bulky. Fast lenses also usually suffer from vignetting and coma at maximum aperture, and making fast lenses lenses compact only worsen this problem. It seems like most Nex buyers are into affordable, handy and compact lenses.

With excellent high ISO performance fast lenses might have lost some appeal for common users.

Seems like moderately fast super high quality lenses like the Touits have more appeal than sheer aperture alone.

Guess the Touits will sell well and bring more flair to the entire Nex line of cameras.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
S3ZAi
Contributing MemberPosts: 773Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

I've been wondering about this for ages. Been getting a whole lot of defensive answers here, as if the people who visit this forum and own a sony camera also work for sony and try to discourage people from asking this kind of questions.

If it helps you out, the oss on the sel35 and the sel50 make them in some situations even better than a faster lens. But sometimes all you want is a faster lens. And it ain't there.

Another option is a faster manual lens.

Yes it would cost a lot and yes it would  perhaps be a lot bigger, but still, it would be nice to at least have the option.

Nikon today announced a 35mm 1.2 lens for their 1 series. Yes the nikon 1 has a smaller sensor, and yes that lens is going to be 900$, but still, people who want it, will be able to get it. People wondering which camera to get will hear about the 1.2 lens and go for the nikon 1. Sony just doesn't seem to care.

 S3ZAi's gear list:S3ZAi's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha 7R Sony E 35mm F1.8 OSS Sony FE 55mm F1.8
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 14,023Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to S3ZAi, May 14, 2013

S3ZAi wrote:

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

I've been wondering about this for ages. Been getting a whole lot of defensive answers here, as if the people who visit this forum and own a sony camera also work for sony and try to discourage people from asking this kind of questions.

If it helps you out, the oss on the sel35 and the sel50 make them in some situations even better than a faster lens. But sometimes all you want is a faster lens. And it ain't there.

Another option is a faster manual lens.

Yes it would cost a lot and yes it would  perhaps be a lot bigger, but still, it would be nice to at least have the option.

Nikon today announced a 35mm 1.2 lens for their 1 series. Yes the nikon 1 has a smaller sensor, and yes that lens is going to be 900$, but still, people who want it, will be able to get it. People wondering which camera to get will hear about the 1.2 lens and go for the nikon 1. Sony just doesn't seem to care.

Go buy a Fuji X, they have a 56mm f/1.2 coming soon.

Sure, I would like to see a few modern large aperture lenses for small sensor systems, but currently I think f/1.8 is a pretty good balance for APS-C.  It keeps the lenses modestly sized and affordable, and usually don't shoot at f/1.8 anyway.

Edit:  My point is since it is a small 1" sensor, the Nikon 1 has to have f/1.2.  APS doesn't really need f/1.2, sure I would take a few nice f/1.2 primes, but then you lose size and cost so I would just buy the 1.8 primes instead.

Eric

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony Alpha 7R Samsung NX1 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake Samsung NX 85mm F1.4 ED SSA Samsung NX 60mm F2.8 Macro ED OIS SSA +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
CosmoZooo
Regular MemberPosts: 452
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to S3ZAi, May 14, 2013

S3ZAi wrote:

People wondering which camera to get will hear about the 1.2 lens and go for the nikon 1. Sony just doesn't seem to care.

Look let's not get carried away here - if you read the article here's what it clearly says:

"It will provide the angle of view and depth of field control of an 86mm F3.2 lens for a full-frame system"

Does f1.2 still sound amazing to you on that lens - really? What is the math for APS-C someone please as I am bad at the light stop stuff...what is it 58mm f2.4 DOF eq maybe?

NEX-6 APS-C sensor from some other discussions has maybe about 2 stops low light advantage over the RX100 sensor. The Nikon 1 sensors does not perform as well as RX100 (they are same size) so we could assume that a typical NEX performance is over 2 stops better then Nikon 1 current sensor.

So here you go the advantage of a $900 f1.2 lens is wiped out by a larger APS-C NEX sensor and a $300 50mm f1.8 lens in a blink of an eye. Yes it's 75mm eq vs 85mm eq...not a big deal. Not to mention Sony could easily make 55mm it if made any sense considering you have the 50mm.

Am I wrong here folks?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
EinsteinsGhost
Forum ProPosts: 11,977Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to S3ZAi, May 14, 2013

S3ZAi wrote:

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

I've been wondering about this for ages. Been getting a whole lot of defensive answers here, as if the people who visit this forum and own a sony camera also work for sony and try to discourage people from asking this kind of questions.

If it helps you out, the oss on the sel35 and the sel50 make them in some situations even better than a faster lens. But sometimes all you want is a faster lens. And it ain't there.

Another option is a faster manual lens.

Yes it would cost a lot and yes it would  perhaps be a lot bigger, but still, it would be nice to at least have the option.

Nikon today announced a 35mm 1.2 lens for their 1 series. Yes the nikon 1 has a smaller sensor, and yes that lens is going to be 900$, but still, people who want it, will be able to get it. People wondering which camera to get will hear about the 1.2 lens and go for the nikon 1. Sony just doesn't seem to care.

I hope Sony doesn't waste its resources along these lines, instead provide practical solutions. Remember, 32mm f/1.2 on a 1" sensor is comparable to 58mm f/2 on a APS-C sensor. For portraiture, Sony has a sub-300 lens, which is excellent: 50mm f/1.8 OSS.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
forpetessake
Senior MemberPosts: 3,985
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

If you are willing to go fully manual, you can get excellent quality, high resolution, compact 36mm/1.3 right now, and it will cost you about $315. Here is the DIY solution:

Not so great on APS-C, but very good FF lens

Add to the lens 20mm of focal reducer:

when attached to 50/1.8 lens makes it 36mm f/1.3

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Bart Hickman
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,254Gear list
Like?
An 85mm/1.4 would be pretty expensive and massive
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

-- hide signature --

Person is taking photos, not camera. When photograph is bad, it's because photographer doesn't know how to choose settings optimal to "own preferences". Then blames camera for bad IQ.
This is same as blaming car about arriving to wrong destination.
http://stan-pustylnik.smugmug.com

Canon makes an 85mm F/1.2 lens right now and I suspect an E-mount version would be even longer simply to take up the shorter flange distance.  The E-mount version would likely be just as large a diameter as the huge Canon lens just to accommodate a 71mm diameter aperture.  I'm not saying it's not a useful lens, but I'm not sure what this "smaller sensor" advantage is you're talking about.

The existing 35/1.8 seems pretty close to an F/1.2 version, so the issue for Sony there might just be that use-case is pretty well served already.

Bart

-- hide signature --
 Bart Hickman's gear list:Bart Hickman's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony a6000 Pentax smc FA 50mm F1.4 Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS Sony E 10-18mm F4 OSS +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
S3ZAi
Contributing MemberPosts: 773Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, May 14, 2013

Here we go again.

I'm sure when sony makes that 1.2/1.4 lens, the ones most defensive now will be the first in line  to buy it.

 S3ZAi's gear list:S3ZAi's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha 7R Sony E 35mm F1.8 OSS Sony FE 55mm F1.8
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
forpetessake
Senior MemberPosts: 3,985
Like?
94mm f/1.4
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

The 94mm f/1.4 can be had for about $1000 by attaching focal reducer to Canon 135mm f/2L:

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
forpetessake
Senior MemberPosts: 3,985
Like?
bottom line
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

There aren't technical difficulties making those lenses, they already exist in FF equivalent, except the E-mount bodies, they are too small, weak, and uncomfortable for large lenses. The 85mm/1.4 would be heavy (likely about 1.5lb) for small NEX cameras. Rumors say that Sony is heading with larger mirrorless designs using A-mount. That makes sense, especially since the future sensors will be FF.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
kcamacho11
Senior MemberPosts: 1,504
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

-- hide signature --

Person is taking photos, not camera. When photograph is bad, it's because photographer doesn't know how to choose settings optimal to "own preferences". Then blames camera for bad IQ.
This is same as blaming car about arriving to wrong destination.
http://stan-pustylnik.smugmug.com

Totally unnecessary.

With the NEX cameras being so light in weight, and with their Antimotion Blur / Handhend Twilight modes where they take many exposures and combine them into one image, reducing blur and noise...a F1.2 lens is not necessary.....

F1.8 is plenty enough to be able to shoot in low light with the NEX cameras and get superb results.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
CosmoZooo
Regular MemberPosts: 452
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to S3ZAi, May 14, 2013

S3ZAi wrote:

Here we go again.

I'm sure when sony makes that 1.2/1.4 lens, the ones most defensive now will be the first in line  to buy it.

You're missing the point here...that Nikon f1.2 lens is not really a 1.2 lens when comparing DOF. And even the light gathering ability of f1.2 with Nikon's 1" sensor is no match for an f1.8 NEX APS-C. If you're going to compare the two systems and ask "why" you have to equate things first and then you realize that an equivalent of that Nikon 1 f1.2 already exists on the NEX even more then f1.2 if you consider DOF.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
stan_pustylnik
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,532Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to viking79, May 14, 2013

viking79 wrote:

S3ZAi wrote:

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

I've been wondering about this for ages. Been getting a whole lot of defensive answers here, as if the people who visit this forum and own a sony camera also work for sony and try to discourage people from asking this kind of questions.

If it helps you out, the oss on the sel35 and the sel50 make them in some situations even better than a faster lens. But sometimes all you want is a faster lens. And it ain't there.

Another option is a faster manual lens.

Yes it would cost a lot and yes it would  perhaps be a lot bigger, but still, it would be nice to at least have the option.

Nikon today announced a 35mm 1.2 lens for their 1 series. Yes the nikon 1 has a smaller sensor, and yes that lens is going to be 900$, but still, people who want it, will be able to get it. People wondering which camera to get will hear about the 1.2 lens and go for the nikon 1. Sony just doesn't seem to care.

Go buy a Fuji X, they have a 56mm f/1.2 coming soon.

Sure, I would like to see a few modern large aperture lenses for small sensor systems, but currently I think f/1.8 is a pretty good balance for APS-C.  It keeps the lenses modestly sized and affordable, and usually don't shoot at f/1.8 anyway.

Edit:  My point is since it is a small 1" sensor, the Nikon 1 has to have f/1.2.  APS doesn't really need f/1.2, sure I would take a few nice f/1.2 primes, but then you lose size and cost so I would just buy the 1.8 primes instead.

Eric

Eric,

I honestly don't buy this, f/stop is relationship between lens external element diameter and distance to the film/sensor. By looking at tiny external lens elements of f/3.5 lenses I always wondered why makers prefer doing these small and dim lenses.

Olympus is capable even having f/2.0 zoom lenses, and Sony is not...

-- hide signature --

Person is taking photos, not camera. When photograph is bad, it's because photographer doesn't know how to choose settings optimal to "own preferences". Then blames camera for bad IQ.
This is same as blaming car about arriving to wrong destination.
http://stan-pustylnik.smugmug.com

 stan_pustylnik's gear list:stan_pustylnik's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS2 Sony Alpha DSLR-A850
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 14,023Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to stan_pustylnik, May 14, 2013

stan_pustylnik wrote:

viking79 wrote:

S3ZAi wrote:

stan_pustylnik wrote:

Why doesn't Sony use smaller sensor surface advantage from NEX system to build f/1.2 35mm lens,  and 85mm f/1.4?

I've been wondering about this for ages. Been getting a whole lot of defensive answers here, as if the people who visit this forum and own a sony camera also work for sony and try to discourage people from asking this kind of questions.

If it helps you out, the oss on the sel35 and the sel50 make them in some situations even better than a faster lens. But sometimes all you want is a faster lens. And it ain't there.

Another option is a faster manual lens.

Yes it would cost a lot and yes it would  perhaps be a lot bigger, but still, it would be nice to at least have the option.

Nikon today announced a 35mm 1.2 lens for their 1 series. Yes the nikon 1 has a smaller sensor, and yes that lens is going to be 900$, but still, people who want it, will be able to get it. People wondering which camera to get will hear about the 1.2 lens and go for the nikon 1. Sony just doesn't seem to care.

Go buy a Fuji X, they have a 56mm f/1.2 coming soon.

Sure, I would like to see a few modern large aperture lenses for small sensor systems, but currently I think f/1.8 is a pretty good balance for APS-C.  It keeps the lenses modestly sized and affordable, and usually don't shoot at f/1.8 anyway.

Edit:  My point is since it is a small 1" sensor, the Nikon 1 has to have f/1.2.  APS doesn't really need f/1.2, sure I would take a few nice f/1.2 primes, but then you lose size and cost so I would just buy the 1.8 primes instead.

Eric

Eric,

I honestly don't buy this, f/stop is relationship between lens external element diameter and distance to the film/sensor. By looking at tiny external lens elements of f/3.5 lenses I always wondered why makers prefer doing these small and dim lenses.

Olympus is capable even having f/2.0 zoom lenses, and Sony is not...

Sony makes 24-70 f/2.8 and 70-200mm f/2.8 for 135 format full frame, these are like 12-35 and 35-100 f/1.4 lenses on m4/3, a full stop larger effective aperture than the 14-35mm and 35-100mm f/2 lenses and they are cheaper.  I applaud Olympus for going the extra reach and making f/2 lenses, but really this is required because they have a smaller sensor.

The size of the lens is largely based on field of view and aperture.  Take for example the 32mm f/1.2, it only needs a front element size of 32/1.2 = 27 mm minimum (depends on lens design if it is that or not).  That isn't very big.  Take for example a 85mm f/3.2, this lens would also need 85/3.2 = 27 mm front element.  Now being a larger sensor it might require larger internal elements.  Both these lenses have the same field of view if the 85mm is used on 135 format full frame vs 32mm f/1.2 on Nikon 1.

So where I am going with this is I would rather see Sony stick to a larger sensor and more modest apertures as it means cheaper lenses.  When you go to smaller sensor systems, you do get smaller lenses, but only if you give up effective aperture/depth of field control.  Although the 32mm f/1.2 sounds impressive, an 85mm f/2.8 from Sony for a 135 format full frame camera is only $300 and is pretty much the same in terms of function.

Eric

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony Alpha 7R Samsung NX1 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake Samsung NX 85mm F1.4 ED SSA Samsung NX 60mm F2.8 Macro ED OIS SSA +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
EinsteinsGhost
Forum ProPosts: 11,977Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to S3ZAi, May 14, 2013

S3ZAi wrote:

Here we go again.

I'm sure when sony makes that 1.2/1.4 lens, the ones most defensive now will be the first in line  to buy it.

Incorrect. To give you an example, I went from Minolta 50/1.7 to Sony 50/1.4 and decided to go with 35/1.8. You won't find me overly obsessed on this subject. I look at this issue with practicality in mind. Now, I did end up adding a fast 50mm for my NEX, but again, despite of having 50/1.4, 50/1.2. 58/1.2 etc for options, even 50/0.95, I went for 50/1.7 (Contax Zeiss).

50-60mm focal length, at f/2 or faster are plenty and cheap... a purpose this $900 lens for Nikon 1 is expected for.

Now, I must admit keeping hope for a faster (than f/2.8) 85mm lens for NEX. But, again, 85/2 would be sufficient.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
S3ZAi
Contributing MemberPosts: 773Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, May 14, 2013

What I don't understand is, long story short:

for a 1 inch sensor, the nikon 1 for example, a 1.2 lens is ok, perhaps even needed

for micro 4/3 they have existed all along and perhaps even better ones will be made, who knows

for full frame there are many options, most are big and expensive, but still, that's up to the buyer we would all agree.

So can we conclude that only for apsc size sensor fast lenses are not needed, nor wanted?

Ummm, wait, even if for example fuji makes them and they sell like hotcakes? Xpro IS apsc, right? Well, fuji must be out of their minds, they managed to produce something that wasn't even possible. Nor desirable. They already have at least one 1.4 lens. There is also a 1.2 one in the making if I understand correctly.

Also there are already rumors that sigma might be making a 1.4 lens for nex.

So, let's just narrow it down even further. It is not so much that for apsc sized sensors fast lenses aren't needed nor wanted, only if they are of the brand sony.

I don't even need a fast lens anymore, I am happy with sel35 with oss, it's just this whole: let's gang up  on people who ask questions mentality that seems to be prevalent here.

 S3ZAi's gear list:S3ZAi's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha 7R Sony E 35mm F1.8 OSS Sony FE 55mm F1.8
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DtEW
Senior MemberPosts: 1,911Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, May 14, 2013

I'm just surprised that nobody has found all these "defensive" accusations insulting, esp. when it's been the lone "argument" (actually, an ad hominem) wielded against the majority's well-reasoned points in favor of practicality.  And now the claim that everyone is going to be hypocrites if these lenses come into existence?

I can tell you I started trying to answer this thread no less than twice, but then decided better.

 DtEW's gear list:DtEW's gear list
Canon PowerShot G11 Canon EOS 6D Sony a6000 Canon EF 100mm f/2.0 USM Canon EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 IS USM +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DtEW
Senior MemberPosts: 1,911Gear list
Like?
Re: why not f/1.2 by Sony?
In reply to S3ZAi, May 14, 2013

S3ZAi wrote:

it's just this whole: let's gang up  on people who ask questions mentality that seems to be prevalent here.

I found it hilarious that you start off your first reply to this thread with an accusation ("defensive") of vested interests...  and now that you find yourself in the severe minority with no arguments of substance ("they're being defensive, and will show themselves to be hypocrites when these lenses show up!")...

Now you characterize your embarrassing rout as others "ganging up on people who ask questions".

You should go back and consider who is being the rude aggressor, not to mention somebody wielding sh!tacular arguments.

 DtEW's gear list:DtEW's gear list
Canon PowerShot G11 Canon EOS 6D Sony a6000 Canon EF 100mm f/2.0 USM Canon EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 IS USM +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads