Fuji X30 wants

Started May 13, 2013 | Discussions
Trollshavethebestcandy
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Fuji X30 wants
May 13, 2013

Same everything and approx size but 1" Xtrans sensor.
I can't see them getting much more out of this size sensor that they have without diminishing returns.

0MitchAG
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Trollshavethebestcandy, May 14, 2013

Trollshavethebestcandy wrote:

Same everything and approx size but 1" Xtrans sensor.
I can't see them getting much more out of this size sensor that they have without diminishing returns.

I agree, but for a camera that new, the LCD really needs updating - 460k is quite poor and one of the biggest annoyances on my previous camera was the low resolution LCD. Sometimes, I couldn't actually see if my photos were in focus or blurred when reviewing them, and thus lost a few good shots upon seeing them on my laptop. Especially for a product of its price, it's really an afterthought it seems. As if because it had an optical viewfinder, it wasn't too important, though I can agree with that to some degree, but not enough to justify the high end price.

Battery life is also quite poor, when compared against competitors and even the other Fuji X series cameras.

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Eddaweaver
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to 0MitchAG, May 15, 2013

Ideally

  • 1" 3:2 sensor
  • Bigger battery
  • Higher resolution LCD
  • More usable coverage from the viewfinder

With a two year development cycle and the X100s to compete with that may be too much to hope for.

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Pacific462
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Eddaweaver, May 15, 2013

I'm lost for words 

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Eddaweaver
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Pacific462, May 15, 2013

Pacific462 wrote:

I'm lost for words 

Did I say something wrong? 

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tazmac
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Trollshavethebestcandy, May 15, 2013

Trollshavethebestcandy wrote:

Same everything and approx size but 1" Xtrans sensor.
I can't see them getting much more out of this size sensor that they have without diminishing returns.

When they release the new entry level X camera which is rumored for this summer you will no want X30 anymore! 

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xchert
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Trollshavethebestcandy, May 16, 2013

Trollshavethebestcandy wrote:

Same everything and approx size but 1" Xtrans sensor.
I can't see them getting much more out of this size sensor that they have without diminishing returns.

As long as you realize they would have to either make the lens much much bigger, do away with the 4x zoom, or make the lens much slower than F/2.0.  It's just physics.  I'd rather keep the good lens, personally.

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Pacific462
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to xchert, May 16, 2013

Agreed.

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Trollshavethebestcandy
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to xchert, May 16, 2013

xchert wrote:

Trollshavethebestcandy wrote:

Same everything and approx size but 1" Xtrans sensor.
I can't see them getting much more out of this size sensor that they have without diminishing returns.

As long as you realize they would have to either make the lens much much bigger, do away with the 4x zoom, or make the lens much slower than F/2.0.  It's just physics.  I'd rather keep the good lens, personally.

I would gladly lose some tele end.  28-85mm

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Trollshavethebestcandy
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to 0MitchAG, May 16, 2013

0MitchAG wrote:

Trollshavethebestcandy wrote:

Same everything and approx size but 1" Xtrans sensor.
I can't see them getting much more out of this size sensor that they have without diminishing returns.

I agree, but for a camera that new, the LCD really needs updating - 460k is quite poor and one of the biggest annoyances on my previous camera was the low resolution LCD. Sometimes, I couldn't actually see if my photos were in focus or blurred when reviewing them, and thus lost a few good shots upon seeing them on my laptop. Especially for a product of its price, it's really an afterthought it seems. As if because it had an optical viewfinder, it wasn't too important, though I can agree with that to some degree, but not enough to justify the high end price.

Battery life is also quite poor, when compared against competitors and even the other Fuji X series cameras.

Yes, the screen is poor for checking focus.

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Trollshavethebestcandy
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Eddaweaver, May 16, 2013

Eddaweaver wrote:

Ideally

  • 1" 3:2 sensor
  • Bigger battery
  • Higher resolution LCD
  • More usable coverage from the viewfinder

With a two year development cycle and the X100s to compete with that may be too much to hope for.

A square sensor!

Maybe a new monochrome sensor?

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Pan Jurek Mr Jerry
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Trollshavethebestcandy, Jul 10, 2013

What I would like to see is the following:

1.) A bigger sensor.

2.) An articulating screen.

3.) A choice of styles; like with the X20.

4.) Two different versions:  X30A Normal with any updates like the double exposure update for  the X20 and a X30B A Black & White / Sepia version with all the updates that the X30B gets too.

5.) A longer zoom.  More wider and more tele. (20 - 140)

6.) A faster lens with a constant appature of F/1.4

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Pan Jurek Mr Jerry
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to tazmac, Jul 10, 2013

Which entry level X camera are they releasing?

tazmac wrote:

Trollshavethebestcandy wrote:

Same everything and approx size but 1" Xtrans sensor.
I can't see them getting much more out of this size sensor that they have without diminishing returns.

When they release the new entry level X camera which is rumored for this summer you will no want X30 anymore! 

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lacro
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Pan Jurek Mr Jerry, Jul 10, 2013

The rumored X30 Project or Fuji's answer to the Sony RX100 II challenge must fulfil,

  1. many requirements,
  2. >>>soon<<< and
  3. at a similar reasonable price range < US$ 700 (without mining her bigger sisters' segment, the 100S).

Wouldn't mind the "best >jacket pocket< SIZE camera" (RX100 II), is SMALLER than the best small size cam (X30), provided

  • a broader (24-120) and faster (1.8-2.4) Fixed Zoom LENS (FZL),
  • a bigger SENSOR 1" at least (a Sony RX100 II challenger),
  • the X ×0 compact line EXPERIENCE is kept,
  • a much better LCD resolution,
  • a wider shutter speed range,
  • an even better coverage viewfinder as well as
  • a similar overall DESIGN philisophy, while
  • keeping at least the device quality and IQ standards from her bigger sisters.

Rgds, Carlos

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prime
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to Pan Jurek Mr Jerry, Jul 10, 2013

Pan Jurek Mr Jerry wrote:

What I would like to see is the following:

1.) A bigger sensor.

Sure. How much bigger do you want the camera to be to accommodate that bigger sensor?  If you swapped a larger sensor straight into the X20 body, the image circle of the existing lens either would not cover the entire surface of the sensor, or there would be serious vignetting.  So you necessarily would have to make the lens bigger, too.

5.) A longer zoom. More wider and more tele. (20 - 140)

The current X20 goes to 112 mm equivalent, which is 28.4 mm actual, with the 2/3" sensor.  Even with the same size sensor, 140 mm equivalent would require an actual focal length of 35.5 mm.  Increase the sensor size to, say 1", and the actual focal length for 140 mm equivalent goes to about 51.7 mm.

6.) A faster lens with a constant appature of F/1.4

In the X20, the diameter of the aperture for f/2.8 at 28.4 mm actual focal length (112 mm equivalent) is 28.4 ÷ 2.8 = about 10 mm; for an actual focal length of 35.5 mm (140 mm equivalent), an f/2.8 aperture requires an actual aperture of about 12.7 mm -- that's still with a 2/3" sensor.  Now increase the sensor size to 1" and the actual aperture for f/2.8 at 140 mm equivalent becomes about 18.5 mm.  Now increase the maximum aperture to f/1.4, and the actual aperture must be about 37 mm at 140 mm equivalent.

So your specification has increased the actual aperture -- the hole in the lens through which the light passes -- almost fourfold, from 10 mm to 37 mm.  How are you going to fit an opening of that size inside a lens barrel the size of the X20's lens barrel?  O.k., let's increase the size of the lens barrel.  Oops, the lens barrel now overlaps the viewfinder, so we'll have to widen the camera body to move the viewfinder out further, probably have to make the camera a bit taller, too, for the same reason.

But it's not only the aperture that you have increased in size; you have had to increase the size of each of the lens elements inside the lens barrel, too, and those lens elements have mass.  If you still want auto focus, you will have to increase the size of the motor moving those lens elements around, which will drain the battery faster, so you will have to increase the size of the battery, too.

There are real physical reasons for large sensor cameras with long lens reach and bright apertures being big and heavy.

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Pan Jurek Mr Jerry
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to lacro, Jul 11, 2013

Thank you for the reply. Yes a 1" sensor would be great. I just hope that they keep everything else from the X10/X20 design. I really like the fact that the X20 got an updated view finder that you can actually see information while looking through it. Pretty much like a DSLR would do. Also an articulating screen or at least a titling screen would be great. HHmm. F/1.8? Why not a constant aperture of F/1.4?

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lacro wrote:

The rumored X30 Project or Fuji's answer to the Sony RX100 II challenge must fulfil,

  1. many requirements,from the X10/X20
  2. >>>soon<<< and
  3. at a similar reasonable price range < US$ 700 (without mining her bigger sisters' segment, the 100S).

Wouldn't mind the "best >jacket pocket< SIZE camera" (RX100 II), is SMALLER than the best small size cam (X30), provided

  • a broader (24-120) and faster (1.8-2.4) Fixed Zoom LENS (FZL),
  • a bigger SENSOR 1" at least (a Sony RX100 II challenger),
  • the X ×0 compact line EXPERIENCE is kept,
  • a much better LCD resolution,
  • a wider shutter speed range,
  • an even better coverage viewfinder as well as
  • a similar overall DESIGN philisophy, while
  • keeping at least the device quality and IQ standards from her bigger sisters.

Rgds, Carlos

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Pan Jurek Mr Jerry
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to prime, Jul 11, 2013

Thanks for the reply.                I thought that electronics played a larger role in lens and aperture design.

I remember from my old SLR, no not DSLR but SLR, that I could see the aperture getting bigger and smaller when I played around with the lens once I got it off of the camera.  I cannot see the aperture change on my APS-C sized lenses since I thought that this was done electronically.

prime wrote:

Pan Jurek Mr Jerry wrote:

What I would like to see is the following:

1.) A bigger sensor.

Sure. How much bigger do you want the camera to be to accommodate that bigger sensor? If you swapped a larger sensor straight into the X20 body, the image circle of the existing lens either would not cover the entire surface of the sensor, or there would be serious vignetting. So you necessarily would have to make the lens bigger, too.

5.) A longer zoom. More wider and more tele. (20 - 140)

The current X20 goes to 112 mm equivalent, which is 28.4 mm actual, with the 2/3" sensor. Even with the same size sensor, 140 mm equivalent would require an actual focal length of 35.5 mm. Increase the sensor size to, say 1", and the actual focal length for 140 mm equivalent goes to about 51.7 mm.

6.) A faster lens with a constant appature of F/1.4

In the X20, the diameter of the aperture for f/2.8 at 28.4 mm actual focal length (112 mm equivalent) is 28.4 ÷ 2.8 = about 10 mm; for an actual focal length of 35.5 mm (140 mm equivalent), an f/2.8 aperture requires an actual aperture of about 12.7 mm -- that's still with a 2/3" sensor. Now increase the sensor size to 1" and the actual aperture for f/2.8 at 140 mm equivalent becomes about 18.5 mm. Now increase the maximum aperture to f/1.4, and the actual aperture must be about 37 mm at 140 mm equivalent.

So your specification has increased the actual aperture -- the hole in the lens through which the light passes -- almost fourfold, from 10 mm to 37 mm. How are you going to fit an opening of that size inside a lens barrel the size of the X20's lens barrel? O.k., let's increase the size of the lens barrel. Oops, the lens barrel now overlaps the viewfinder, so we'll have to widen the camera body to move the viewfinder out further, probably have to make the camera a bit taller, too, for the same reason.

But it's not only the aperture that you have increased in size; you have had to increase the size of each of the lens elements inside the lens barrel, too, and those lens elements have mass. If you still want auto focus, you will have to increase the size of the motor moving those lens elements around, which will drain the battery faster, so you will have to increase the size of the battery, too.

There are real physical reasons for large sensor cameras with long lens reach and bright apertures being big and heavy.

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evoprox
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to prime, Jul 11, 2013

Agreed on the bigger sensor, preferably one-inch. The body doesn't necessarily need to be significantly larger - see m43 snappers like the E-PL5 or APS-C cameras like the NEX series. However the lens for a one-inch sensor would be somewhat larger than that on the X10/X10 if it'd keep the current specs - 28-112mm (FF equiv)/f2-2.8. For me that lens is just perfect as it is, an extended zoom range or faster openings would quickly make it too large for a 'compact' camera. Just let me add that I have something of a gut feeling that the X30 will come with an EVF instead of the current OVF; a deciding feature that would set it even further apart from Sony's soap boxes and other high-end compacts. The modules get cheaper, smaller and better with each generation, we'll get 100% coverage instead of the current 85%, no more parallax errors and corners covered by an extended lens and/or hoods. An EVF doesn't need more space than the current OVF, just some more juice so it's about time to give that camera a decent, ergonomic grip with enough space to hold a bigger battery. Go Fuji !

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prime
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to evoprox, Jul 11, 2013

evoprox wrote:

Agreed on the bigger sensor, preferably one-inch. The body doesn't necessarily need to be significantly larger - see m43 snappers like the E-PL5 or APS-C cameras like the NEX series. However the lens for a one-inch sensor would be somewhat larger than that on the X10/X10 if it'd keep the current specs - 28-112mm (FF equiv)/f2-2.8.

The Sony RX100 manages to get to 100 mm equivalent (37.1 mm actual) at the long end with a 1" sensor; the RX100's lens has a 7.6 mm actual aperture -- which limits the RX100 to f/4.9 at the long end. Didn't you think that a maximum aperture of f/4.9 at 100 mm equivalent (on the Fujifilm XF1) is unacceptably slow?

If you were to make a lens that had an f/2.8 aperture at 112 mm equivalent on a camera with a 1" sensor, the actual aperture opening would have to be 14.7 mm, nearly double the actual aperture of the RX100's lens.  Look at the Sony RX100: that lens sticks out pretty far (acknowledged: that the aperture size requirements relate to barrel diameter rather than to how far the lens extends from the camera body) from the body even when retracted, and occupies a lot of space in toto.  Could you live with a lens nearly double the size of the RX100's lens on an X20 successor camera?

For me that lens is just perfect as it is, an extended zoom range or faster openings would quickly make it too large for a 'compact' camera.

After considering the size of lens required for equivalent 112 mm f/2.8 on a camera with a 1" sensor, do you think it would not be "too large for a 'compact' camera"?

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evoprox
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Re: Fuji X30 wants
In reply to prime, Jul 11, 2013

prime wrote:

evoprox wrote:

Agreed on the bigger sensor, preferably one-inch. The body doesn't necessarily need to be significantly larger - see m43 snappers like the E-PL5 or APS-C cameras like the NEX series. However the lens for a one-inch sensor would be somewhat larger than that on the X10/X10 if it'd keep the current specs - 28-112mm (FF equiv)/f2-2.8.

The Sony RX100 manages to get to 100 mm equivalent (37.1 mm actual) at the long end with a 1" sensor; the RX100's lens has a 7.6 mm actual aperture -- which limits the RX100 to f/4.9 at the long end. Didn't you think that a maximum aperture of f/4.9 at 100 mm equivalent (on the Fujifilm XF1) is unacceptably slow?

If you were to make a lens that had an f/2.8 aperture at 112 mm equivalent on a camera with a 1" sensor, the actual aperture opening would have to be 14.7 mm, nearly double the actual aperture of the RX100's lens. Look at the Sony RX100: that lens sticks out pretty far (acknowledged: that the aperture size requirements relate to barrel diameter rather than to how far the lens extends from the camera body) from the body even when retracted, and occupies a lot of space in toto.

Could you live with a lens nearly double the size of the RX100's lens on an X20 successor camera?

Yes. See below.

For me that lens is just perfect as it is, an extended zoom range or faster openings would quickly make it too large for a 'compact' camera.

After considering the size of lens required for equivalent 112 mm f/2.8 on a camera with a 1" sensor, do you think it would not be "too large for a 'compact' camera"?

Well, agreed on the length as the critical dimension regarding 'compactness' (vs. diameter) and thus pretty much depends on how collapsible such a lens could be realised - see your XF1, the X10/20 or any of the current 10+X super stretch travel zoom snappers (1/2.3" sensors). I'd rather see some of the long end/versatility sacrificed, e.g. 3x (28-84mm) instead of 4x (28-112mm) if they only keep the f2-2.8

84 vs. 112mm wouldn't be too much of a loss in my book (all my current FF lenses fall in that range). For me the only reason to upgrade from my trusty X10 would be a one-inch sensor together with a reasonably fast and flexible lens, even if it would be somewhat larger. I have no need for yet another half-assed 2/3" follow-up.

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