"I'm not sure I get it" - no I don't believe you do

Started May 12, 2013 | Discussions
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TrapperJohn Forum Pro • Posts: 13,804
Thom runs a website, Olympus runs a company.

Whether or not he sees a market for an upscale mini rangefinder, they do. And Olympus created M43, so they do know something about the market. For sure, they know more than C/N do about compact, high performance cameras.

The EP5 is not for me, I want the OMD-Pro that will AF my ZD glass quickly, and the Pen sized body just doesn't handle well with those larger lenses. But that doesn't mean that many people won't want the very compact and discreet form factor.

I particularly like the 1/8000 shutter speed and the larger VF.

Others will want the 5 axis IBIS - it really does work well, and isn't found in the lesser Pens.

And I can see the wi-fi option as being particularly attractive. I wouldn't mind having it... how many times have I gotten the 'no card' message when I forgot to put the card back in?

I don't like it enough to buy one at that price, but I love it for what it says about the OMD-Pro.

tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 22,051
Re: who cares what he says?

Pikme wrote:

Seriously, he is just another guy who bloviates about the business decisions these companies make.  If he is such a marketing genius, why isn't he a Chief Marketing Officer for some Fortune 50 company?

Take a look at his end of year predictions - my dogs have at least the same rate of success.  ANd he has been predicting the end of Olympus for as long as I can remember.

I have no problem with him or what he writes - just that anyone thinks his opinions are any different than mine or my neighbors or my kids or anyone else.  I don't get why people take him so seriously.

-- hide signature --

Roberto M.

Really.

Thom Hogan makes Tedolph look lke a reasonable man.

Tedolph

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panolympus Regular Member • Posts: 169
Re: "I'm not sure I get it" - no I don't believe you do
jim stirling
jim stirling Veteran Member • Posts: 7,356
Re: Thom runs a website, Olympus runs a company.
6

TrapperJohn wrote:

Whether or not he sees a market for an upscale mini rangefinder, they do. And Olympus created M43, so they do know something about the market. For sure, they know more than C/N do about compact, high performance cameras.

They do not seem to know how to make the market profitable in a time when mFT appeared to be selling well. While it may have a small sensor the performance speed/AF/ of the CX system from Nikon is excellent

The EP5 is not for me, I want the OMD-Pro that will AF my ZD glass quickly, and the Pen sized body just doesn't handle well with those larger lenses. But that doesn't mean that many people won't want the very compact and discreet form factor.

It is only discreet when the hideous add on EVF is not stuck on top, or when it is held up in front of your face mobile phone style with the LCyo spotlighting your face.

I particularly like the 1/8000 shutter speed and the larger VF.

My last half  dozen DSLR cameras have had 1/8000th of a sec shutters and from tens of thousands of frames I have never used it

Others will want the 5 axis IBIS - it really does work well, and isn't found in the lesser Pens.

p

And I can see the wi-fi option as being particularly attractive. I wouldn't mind having it... how many times have I gotten the 'no card' message when I forgot to put the card back in?

I don't like it enough to buy one at that price, but I love it for what it says about the OMD-Pro.

Small correction Olympus runs an imaging division that has lost billions of  Yen  managing to double losses in the last year  in what I feel will probably be the peak of market share for mFT. With regard to this camera as far as I am concerned it is firmly in the jewellery category. By the time you have bought the  add on EVF ( a vital necessity for me) aprt from destroying the aesthetics of the camera , you will have in the UK/ EU  run up a total of  £1149 , you can have identical image quality with the O-MD in a weather sealed body with built-in  EVF along with 5axis  for  £350 less , the   GH3 with built in EVF , fully articulated LCD ,better ergonomics and excellent video comes in £250 less.

You can get better image quality with built-in EVF from the likes of the Fuji x-pro 1 , Nex6 , you can get significantly better sensor , in a weather sealed body with far superior C-AF in a Nikon D7100  for £200 less. I to am keen on finding out what the pro O-MD will bring especially regarding support for FT lenses. But this is just overpriced jewellery and will do little to help the terrible finances of Olympus.

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Chatokun
Chatokun Regular Member • Posts: 447
Re: It's a personal choice

Pic Man wrote:

If I had the choice I'd pick the ep5 over em5. Here's why:

Ep5:

  • ISO 100 + 1/8000 shutterspeed. To me that would be extremely useful, it's not just a gimmick feature. I wish all cameras had this.

Actually, if I understand it correctly, it has ISO 200 and ISO Low, which is done via processing, not a difference in sensor ISO (because base ISO is just that, a base). This is again all relevant to jpeg processing, many threads have pointed out that the raw is close to 100 ISO anyway. That sort of is, as you say, "a gimmick feature."

1/8000 is great though.

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YouDidntDidYou
YouDidntDidYou Senior Member • Posts: 1,576
Re: Thom runs a website, Olympus runs a company.

Olympus and Panasonic have both stated that Mirrorless is profitable for them.


living life to the Four Thirds!
http://www.YouDidntDidYou.com

NZ Scott
NZ Scott Senior Member • Posts: 4,102
Re: E-M5 versus other PENs

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

NZ Scott wrote:

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

NZ Scott wrote:

g_r_w wrote:

Hen3ry wrote:

Sure the E-P5 has a few features that the EM5 does not have -- but the E-PL5 has some of them -- probably the key ones -- and the EM6 sure will have them and more.

An d what's with you calling the E-P5 a "fauxz rangefinder" while you compare it with a DSLR? Don’t you mean a "faux DSLR" -- the EM5?

Yes - I probably did mean faux DSLR since we're talking mirrorless... they're both "faux". But the point was about form factor to which most have come to differentiate those with a pentaprism like box to those without as DSLR versus range finder regardless of how accurate those designations are in technical terms, unless you want to be pedantic about it. I don't think it makes the point less valid.

I don't really get your point about the EPL-5. It has some of the key features of the E-M5... so does the EPM-2, but I'm pretty sure that you couldn't make an argument for either camera that they have features equal to or exceeding the E-M5, but you could for the EP-5.

I can easily make an argument that the E-PL5 and EPM-2 have "features equal to or exceeding the E-M5".

The most important of these is RAW image quality, which is absolutely identical between the three cameras.

The E-PL5 and E-PM2 are smaller, lighter and cheaper than the E-M5, all of which are features in their favour. Weight and size are the most important features of M43 cameras - otherwise you might as well shoot DSLR.

Erm no weight and size are not the most important features of M43 cameras they are considerations. Usability, image quality and added value are more important. A potential customer will ask themselves is this a camera I can use, is this a camera with which I can express myself and my experiences and  can I share those images/experiences easily, people do not want to miss the moment...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130509123643.htm

They are the most important features of the system in comparison with its main competitor - the DSLR. In fact, this is supported by your own statement.

Usability = size and weight

Image quality = same as cropped-sensor DSLR

Added value = ?


nope, I'm not selling donuts today...
My better Flickr stream:
http://www.flickr.com/YouDidntDidYou

Usability DOES NOT equal size and weight. They are components along with how easy is to go from what they were shooting prior with ie  point and shoots, bridge cameras and mobile phones (these users find it easier to migrate to PEN LCDs than DSLR users who refuse to let go of OVFs), live bulb mode is far more usable than doing the same on a DSLR, same goes for black and white or sepia shooting etc.

Several errors here.

Firstly, you assume that all M43 users were previously using point-and-shoot cameras, which is simply not the case.

Secondly, you assume that little-used features such as live bulb and sepia shooting are more important than the fundamentals of the camera.


Image quality satisfies it's target market.


Added value already touched on or watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9CxokcDIoI


living life to the Four Thirds!
http://www.YouDidntDidYou.com

-- hide signature --
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Vinc T Regular Member • Posts: 176
Re: "I'm not sure I get it" - no I don't believe you do

Hogan mentioned WIFI twice as a new feature of E-P5 but not even once for more important features like 1/8000 sec!

I have no idea why!

TrapperJohn Forum Pro • Posts: 13,804
The trouble with Sony and Fuji

They don't have squat for glass. And what's the point of a system, if it has little glass? It looks good on a spec sheet, I guess.

I will give Fuji credit - they do have a few lovely primes, very much in line with the 'Leica on a budget' market they're going for.

Sony... a few huge, pricey, and mediocre NEX lenses.

C/N... their micro efforts seem more geared towards convincing the faithful that the dslr is better. It's sort of working... for a while... but even fanboys wake up, eventually.

trekkeruss Veteran Member • Posts: 3,899
Re: It's a personal choice

g_r_w wrote:

I know the comment was semi-tongue in cheek, but out of interest - what would the camera need to push it out of "poseur" status?

Lose the retro-chic.

g_r_w OP Regular Member • Posts: 385
Re: E-M5 versus cheaper PENs

NZ Scott wrote:

I can easily make an argument that the E-PL5 and EPM-2 have "features equal to or exceeding the E-M5".

The most important of these is RAW image quality, which is absolutely identical between the three cameras.

The E-PL5 and E-PM2 are smaller, lighter and cheaper than the E-M5, all of which are features in their favour. Weight and size are the most important features of M43 cameras - otherwise you might as well shoot DSLR.

-- hide signature --

I wouldn't say that that was "easily".  I'd consider that a bit of a stretch and this is coming from someone who values portability very highly on their list.  I'm not a P&S upgrader, I'm a full frame side-stepper.  I travelled around the globe with a 5DMk2 and the standard 24-70 & 70-200 fast zoom set and various primes.  That's probably 15kgs of gear each day - so I understand the "value" of portability.

This could become an issue of semantics i.e. which is the better camera versus which is the more suitable camera.  (The implication being that "better" is about performance.)

I'd also argue that "cheaper" isn't a feature.  All things being equal (even though quite often they're not!) - price is a product of features, less features equals lower price.  Also, consider it this way - if the cameras had no cost, "cheaper" would cease to exist.  But you would still have "smaller" and "lighter".

g_r_w OP Regular Member • Posts: 385
Re: It's a personal choice

trekkeruss wrote:

g_r_w wrote:

I know the comment was semi-tongue in cheek, but out of interest - what would the camera need to push it out of "poseur" status?

Lose the retro-chic.

Don't the features speak for themselves?

Ironically, if it was your desire to avoid appearing like one of the "me-too" crowd, it could be that very desire that prevents you from looking past the appearance of the camera to what it actually offers.

g_r_w OP Regular Member • Posts: 385
Re: It's a personal choice

NZ Scott wrote:

Yeah, I'd probably go G5 or GH3 myself but am drawn to the new IBIS.

-- hide signature --

Now I don't even know why you were arguing for an EPL-5 or EPM-2 earlier, if you value 5-axis IBIS so highly.

YouDidntDidYou
YouDidntDidYou Senior Member • Posts: 1,576
Re: E-M5 versus other PENs
1

NZ Scott wrote:

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

NZ Scott wrote:

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

NZ Scott wrote:

g_r_w wrote:

Hen3ry wrote:

Sure the E-P5 has a few features that the EM5 does not have -- but the E-PL5 has some of them -- probably the key ones -- and the EM6 sure will have them and more.

An d what's with you calling the E-P5 a "fauxz rangefinder" while you compare it with a DSLR? Don’t you mean a "faux DSLR" -- the EM5?

Yes - I probably did mean faux DSLR since we're talking mirrorless... they're both "faux". But the point was about form factor to which most have come to differentiate those with a pentaprism like box to those without as DSLR versus range finder regardless of how accurate those designations are in technical terms, unless you want to be pedantic about it. I don't think it makes the point less valid.

I don't really get your point about the EPL-5. It has some of the key features of the E-M5... so does the EPM-2, but I'm pretty sure that you couldn't make an argument for either camera that they have features equal to or exceeding the E-M5, but you could for the EP-5.

I can easily make an argument that the E-PL5 and EPM-2 have "features equal to or exceeding the E-M5".

The most important of these is RAW image quality, which is absolutely identical between the three cameras.

The E-PL5 and E-PM2 are smaller, lighter and cheaper than the E-M5, all of which are features in their favour. Weight and size are the most important features of M43 cameras - otherwise you might as well shoot DSLR.

Erm no weight and size are not the most important features of M43 cameras they are considerations. Usability, image quality and added value are more important. A potential customer will ask themselves is this a camera I can use, is this a camera with which I can express myself and my experiences and  can I share those images/experiences easily, people do not want to miss the moment...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130509123643.htm

They are the most important features of the system in comparison with its main competitor - the DSLR. In fact, this is supported by your own statement.

Usability = size and weight

Image quality = same as cropped-sensor DSLR

Added value = ?


nope, I'm not selling donuts today...
My better Flickr stream:
http://www.flickr.com/YouDidntDidYou

Usability DOES NOT equal size and weight. They are components along with how easy is to go from what they were shooting prior with ie  point and shoots, bridge cameras and mobile phones (these users find it easier to migrate to PEN LCDs than DSLR users who refuse to let go of OVFs), live bulb mode is far more usable than doing the same on a DSLR, same goes for black and white or sepia shooting etc.

Several errors here.

Firstly, you assume that all M43 users were previously using point-and-shoot cameras, which is simply not the case.

Secondly, you assume that little-used features such as live bulb and sepia shooting are more important than the fundamentals of the camera.


Image quality satisfies it's target market.


Added value already touched on or watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9CxokcDIoI


living life to the Four Thirds!
http://www.YouDidntDidYou.com

-- hide signature --

Erm no I did not say "ALL" mft users upgrading from p&s..... In fact i covered everyone!

I think you'll find that doing black and white, sepia and the other art filters is very important to "ordinary" consumers who dont want to spend half of their lives fiddling about with lightrooom presets.Live bulb is a feature that people either use straight away or rediscover later on.


living life to the Four Thirds!
http://www.YouDidntDidYou.com

AllMankind
AllMankind Contributing Member • Posts: 564
Re: I reckon Hogan is right on the money here
2

g_r_w wrote:

I don't really get your point about the EPL-5. It has some of the key features of the E-M5... so does the EPM-2, but I'm pretty sure that you couldn't make an argument for either camera that they have features equal to or exceeding the E-M5, but you could for the EP-5.

I think you are missing the point of Thom's article, and that was that the EP5 is overpriced for what it offers, especially when compared to the EM5.

trekkeruss Veteran Member • Posts: 3,899
Re: It's a personal choice

I am fully aware that its features and performance could be everything I want. I'd just rather have the features and performance in a more modern-looking camera. I guess that makes me a faux-pro poseur.

As I said, it's a personal choice.

g_r_w OP Regular Member • Posts: 385
Re: Thom runs a website, Olympus runs a company.

jim stirling wrote:

My last half  dozen DSLR cameras have had 1/8000th of a sec shutters and from tens of thousands of frames I have never used it

There only seem to be a dozen cameras that have 1/8000 of a second shutters, over half are $2,500+ body only and then 3 of those are probably $10k+.

So it puts the EP-5 in elite company (it also means you have expensive taste unless you're buying on the cheap end!!).

I have to say that I use ND filters quite frequently, but probably more than a stop (or 2 stops if you add "low" iso").

It would be nice to have a little more leeway without having to carry them around all the time.

pdelux Contributing Member • Posts: 512
Re: Thom runs a website, Olympus runs a company.

jim stirling wrote:

My last half  dozen DSLR cameras have had 1/8000th of a sec shutters and from tens of thousands of frames I have never used it

I guess People Dont ever need to use ND Filters...

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nrcole Regular Member • Posts: 411
Re: "I'm not sure I get it" - no I don't believe you do
1

People expect prices to go down, not up, when features are removed. $1000 body only for a sensor that's on the verge of replacement, no EVF, and minimal improvements over the E-M5 doesn't add up to me, either.

The PEN series has always seemed overpriced to me. I was interested in the E-P3 when I bought my NEX-5N but I couldn't believe Olympus actually wanted *more* money for it. It seemed absurd then, and it seems absurd now that the E-M5 can be had for the same price or even cheaper.

g_r_w OP Regular Member • Posts: 385
Re: It's a personal choice

You could always choose the black, way more discrete and feels more functional than the "retro-chic" silver.

I'm guessing you won't be a candidate for a priority order on the white body with faux wood grip.

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