Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision

Started May 10, 2013 | Discussions
dark13star
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Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
May 10, 2013

Hi all,

I’ve been really enjoying my Nex-7 over the last year, especially with the Sony Zeiss 24mm lens on it. It served me well climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro with the kit lens too. Yet I’m still really intrigued by the Fuji X-system.

I’ve pre-ordered both Zeiss Touit lenses. They are not cheap, as everyone knows, but my joy in photography comes from shooting great prime lenses and while I have legacy glass, I want good native glass too.

After seeing some samples of the Zeiss Touit images compared to the closest Fuji glass , I’m preferring the Fuji images. I realize these are just early snap tests and I see that the focus is different in some of the images. Yet it got me thinking that I really need to try Fuji for myself before I shell out all the cash for those Zeiss lenses.

I’ve ordered an X-E1 and the 35mm f/1.4 to do my own hands on testing. I won’t shoot lens charts and stuff. I’m going to carry my Nex-7 and my Fuji on a couple of outings and see which I really prefer and come to some conclusion before the Zeiss lenses ship.

Anyone else do such a comparison? I’d be interested in what you found. I’d also like to share my findings if others are interested, but I don’t want to start a Sony/Fuji pi$$Ing match. I don’t have vendor loyalty. They are tool providers and I look for the best tools for my needs. The latter part is important, since we are all different and have different photographic styles and preferences.

I see three possible outcomes.

  1. I don’t like the Fuji and send it back before it’s 30-day return period.
  2. I love the Fuji and sell all my Nex gear to build out Fuji.
  3. I determine each has it’s place in my photography and I sell some of my Nex gear and get more Fuji lenses or at least don't buy the Zeiss lenses to build out some Fuji.

It should be interesting at least.

Rich

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expireduser
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

As long as you're comfortable with going down to 16mp, losing focus peaking and a movable viewscreen, the Fuji looks like a great camera. I love the retro style of it.

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dark13star
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to expireduser, May 10, 2013

Nicholas W wrote:

As long as you're comfortable with going down to 16mp, losing focus peaking and a movable viewscreen, the Fuji looks like a great camera. I love the retro style of it.

Yeah, really valid points that I'm considering.

Focus peaking is why I may keep my Nex-7 body for legacy lenses, even if I love the Fuji. I also really like the Sony-Zeiss 24mm and the Fuji 23mm isn't out yet. The lack of moveable LCD is a real issue. I'm trying not to make any decisions until I get them both in my hands though. I guess I could do worse than end up with two great systems (hope my wife doesn't read this)

Rich

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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

Nicholas W wrote:

As long as you're comfortable with going down to 16mp, losing focus peaking and a movable viewscreen, the Fuji looks like a great camera. I love the retro style of it.

Yeah, really valid points that I'm considering.

Focus peaking is why I may keep my Nex-7 body for legacy lenses, even if I love the Fuji. I also really like the Sony-Zeiss 24mm and the Fuji 23mm isn't out yet. The lack of moveable LCD is a real issue. I'm trying not to make any decisions until I get them both in my hands though. I guess I could do worse than end up with two great systems (hope my wife doesn't read this)

Rich

Oh man, I would love to play around with both systems! Looking forward to hearing about your findings later on!

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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

dark13star wrote:

Nicholas W wrote:

As long as you're comfortable with going down to 16mp, losing focus peaking and a movable viewscreen, the Fuji looks like a great camera. I love the retro style of it.

Yeah, really valid points that I'm considering.

Focus peaking is why I may keep my Nex-7 body for legacy lenses, even if I love the Fuji. I also really like the Sony-Zeiss 24mm and the Fuji 23mm isn't out yet. The lack of moveable LCD is a real issue. I'm trying not to make any decisions until I get them both in my hands though. I guess I could do worse than end up with two great systems (hope my wife doesn't read this)

Rich

I have a Fuji XP1 that is a decent camera, and definitely nice if you like the old camera feel.  I actually prefer using my Samsung mirrorless so the Fuji is going.  I think I would feel the same with the NEX, would prefer a NEX 6 to the Fuji, but lens selection might drive me to Fuji.  The Fuji does have excellent lenses for fair prices though (fair relative to the Zeiss lenses).

The Fuji is an excellent high ISO camera.  Focus performance is probably fairly similar to NEX, as with any system, lens is probably more important than body in terms of focus performance.  It also has that special feel that almost any other camera on the market is missing.  They definitely are geared towards different markets, but will appeal to both.

I think focus peaking is not necessary most of the time, it can be useful, but find the displays are often high enough resolution to give the same ability to focus.  I do find the lack of articulating screen annoying in the Fuji sometimes.

The Fuji is one of the few mirrorless cameras I would actually consider using for shooting an event or wedding too.  It has a decent enough bounce flash, good up to high ISO, great lenses, a nice sized grip, etc.  So if I didn't have an SLR for that purpose I would have kept the Fuji.

Eric

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blue_skies
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

dark13star wrote:

Hi all,

I’ve been really enjoying my Nex-7 over the last year, especially with the Sony Zeiss 24mm lens on it. It served me well climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro with the kit lens too. Yet I’m still really intrigued by the Fuji X-system.

I’ve pre-ordered both Zeiss Touit lenses. They are not cheap, as everyone knows, but my joy in photography comes from shooting great prime lenses and while I have legacy glass, I want good native glass too.

After seeing some samples of the Zeiss Touit images compared to the closest Fuji glass , I’m preferring the Fuji images. I realize these are just early snap tests and I see that the focus is different in some of the images. Yet it got me thinking that I really need to try Fuji for myself before I shell out all the cash for those Zeiss lenses.

I’ve ordered an X-E1 and the 35mm f/1.4 to do my own hands on testing. I won’t shoot lens charts and stuff. I’m going to carry my Nex-7 and my Fuji on a couple of outings and see which I really prefer and come to some conclusion before the Zeiss lenses ship.

Anyone else do such a comparison? I’d be interested in what you found. I’d also like to share my findings if others are interested, but I don’t want to start a Sony/Fuji pi$$Ing match. I don’t have vendor loyalty. They are tool providers and I look for the best tools for my needs. The latter part is important, since we are all different and have different photographic styles and preferences.

I see three possible outcomes.

  1. I don’t like the Fuji and send it back before it’s 30-day return period.
  2. I love the Fuji and sell all my Nex gear to build out Fuji.
  3. I determine each has it’s place in my photography and I sell some of my Nex gear and get more Fuji lenses or at least don't buy the Zeiss lenses to build out some Fuji.

It should be interesting at least.

Rich

I would consider the Nex-7 successor later this year first - if you are looking for the ultimate, the 24Mp will get you there faster - especially with the same lenses.

Between the 16Mp Nex and Fuji cameras, it is very confusing to compare the sensors. The Fuji has added sharpness (no AA filter?), but gives it up in JPG preferred flows (RAW flows still seem to be lagging), still the marketing hype persists.

With native lenses, the Fuji lenses outclass the Sony E mount lenses, but barely, imho, for double the money. Not the best ROI on your investment, especially if you work the lens stopped down under a majority of the time. And frankly, the Sony line-up is more versatile for now.

The Touit sample pictures are also non-telling. I downloaded a few, and found them heavily processed, with details lacking, or subject to camera blur? Not sure how to tell a lens from there. I am sure that they are top of the line, but the delta, to e.g. the E1018, or even the E16+UWA, may not be all that great at f/5.6.

If the Touit manages f/2.8 without losing the corners, than it is a winner in my mind. Question then is which camera handles it the best - the 16Mp Nex, the 16Mp Fuji or the 24Mp Nex?

I find myself going back to using more legacy lenses (Contax-G for now), which again separates the lens from the body/sensor issue.

My understanding of the Fuji sensor in the shortest description is that they removed the 'blur' (AA) filter, but this leads to Moire patterns. By rotating the pixel grid in a random pattern, they overcome the Moire problem, and achieve the higher amount of sharpness/detail that is otherwise lost. But the irregular pixel grid makes RAW processing a nightmare - even if RAW converters come on line, they will likely not extract the maximum amount of sharpness.

For ultimate sharpness, the Nex-7 still trumps. But I have pictures that begin to show Moire patterns when viewing the 24Mp directly (in Windows). The same image downsampled to 16Mp does not show such pattern, meaning that LR does something to remedy this as well.

The bottom line really is that output resolution that you are seeking: print, posters, monitors? If you start from there, you may find the Nex-6 more than sufficient.

Yes, I said Nex-6, and not Nex-7

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Cheers,
Henry

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dark13star
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to blue_skies, May 10, 2013

Henry,

Thanks for your feedback. I've enjoyed a lot of your advice since I started participating in this forum.

I've definitely considered the Nex-6 as an additional body too. I have a 7 and an original 5.

All technical specs aside, I'm just really intrigued with some of the results I see from the Fujis and that is why I am biting the bullet and giving it a try.

I do all my own fine art printing (I send out snapshots) on an Epson R2400. I print matte, and frame and even build some of my own frames. I started in the darkroom years ago. Anyway, my largest prints are 13x19, so 16mp is enough. I've really enjoyed the ability to crop out of Nex-7 photos though.

I am a Raw shooter with a dedicated workflow, so that is going to be a key part of my evaluation. I read so much on both sides and I guess I'm a find-out-for-myself kind of guy

The camera will be here tomorrow, so I think I'm committed to the evaluation now It doesn't mean I won't get the Nex-7 replacement, but I don't wait for camera bodies either. It will also be interesting to see the replacement to the X-Pro1. There is always something better on the horizon.

Again, I appreciate your feedback.

Rich

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dark13star
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Funny comment from a friend
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

A friend of mine sent me a message on facebook saying he was sure the Fuji would render grass greener. Cracked me up, because that is what I'm exploring in a figurative sense.

Rich

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

dark13star wrote:

Henry,

Thanks for your feedback. I've enjoyed a lot of your advice since I started participating in this forum.

I've definitely considered the Nex-6 as an additional body too. I have a 7 and an original 5.

All technical specs aside, I'm just really intrigued with some of the results I see from the Fujis and that is why I am biting the bullet and giving it a try.

I do all my own fine art printing (I send out snapshots) on an Epson R2400. I print matte, and frame and even build some of my own frames. I started in the darkroom years ago. Anyway, my largest prints are 13x19, so 16mp is enough. I've really enjoyed the ability to crop out of Nex-7 photos though.

I am a Raw shooter with a dedicated workflow, so that is going to be a key part of my evaluation. I read so much on both sides and I guess I'm a find-out-for-myself kind of guy

The camera will be here tomorrow, so I think I'm committed to the evaluation now It doesn't mean I won't get the Nex-7 replacement, but I don't wait for camera bodies either. It will also be interesting to see the replacement to the X-Pro1. There is always something better on the horizon.

Again, I appreciate your feedback.

Rich

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I looked at these comparison pictures between Touit 32 and Fuji 35, and saw better corners in the former at wider apertures. I attributed that to potential lack of DOF due to slightly longer FL (although, 3mm is fairly negligible but when pixel peeping, it can matter).

PS. It looks like ePhotozine review agrees with regards to corners on Fuji 35/1.4

The sharpness level should be helped with a lack of AA, and that appears to be reflected in the middle. However, the corner sharpness doesn't reach their idea of "good" level until f/5.6.

I will be surprised if Touit didn't beat that (will be interesting to see it tested on Pro-1 for proper comparison). In fact, ePhotozine reviewed corner performance out of Sony 35/1.8 to be better wide open than the Fuji 35/1.4 at f/5.6.

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Tom2572
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

dark13star wrote:

Hi all,

I’ve been really enjoying my Nex-7 over the last year, especially with the Sony Zeiss 24mm lens on it. It served me well climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro with the kit lens too. Yet I’m still really intrigued by the Fuji X-system.

I’ve pre-ordered both Zeiss Touit lenses. They are not cheap, as everyone knows, but my joy in photography comes from shooting great prime lenses and while I have legacy glass, I want good native glass too.

After seeing some samples of the Zeiss Touit images compared to the closest Fuji glass , I’m preferring the Fuji images. I realize these are just early snap tests and I see that the focus is different in some of the images. Yet it got me thinking that I really need to try Fuji for myself before I shell out all the cash for those Zeiss lenses.

I’ve ordered an X-E1 and the 35mm f/1.4 to do my own hands on testing. I won’t shoot lens charts and stuff. I’m going to carry my Nex-7 and my Fuji on a couple of outings and see which I really prefer and come to some conclusion before the Zeiss lenses ship.

Anyone else do such a comparison? I’d be interested in what you found. I’d also like to share my findings if others are interested, but I don’t want to start a Sony/Fuji pi$$Ing match. I don’t have vendor loyalty. They are tool providers and I look for the best tools for my needs. The latter part is important, since we are all different and have different photographic styles and preferences.

I see three possible outcomes.

  1. I don’t like the Fuji and send it back before it’s 30-day return period.
  2. I love the Fuji and sell all my Nex gear to build out Fuji.
  3. I determine each has it’s place in my photography and I sell some of my Nex gear and get more Fuji lenses or at least don't buy the Zeiss lenses to build out some Fuji.

It should be interesting at least.

Rich

Deciding between two cameras is fine, and deciding between two lenses is fine, but when deciding between a camera and a lens the lens should win out every time. Put another way, when the Fuji X-E1 becomes a glorified paperweight in a few years like all the mirrorless cameras before it (PEN E-P1s can be had for $150 these days), the Touit lenses will still be current and still selling at their current list price.

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jazzroy1972
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Re: Funny comment from a friend
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

Hi,

my best friend is a wedding photographer and is using a Fuji XPRO1.

Image quality is outstanding, and low ISO way better than Nex-7.

MAin drawbacks are:

-autofocus is sooooo slow and often keeps hunting in dark.

- optical viewfinder, being rangefinder style, does not have lens angle of view, so you have to rely on small markers and guess which will be the crop!

- evf is not on par with nex-7, so you cannot really rely on it for manual focusing.

so, if you go for image quality, go with fuji, if you go for ease of use, for me stay with Nex.

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blue_skies
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

dark13star wrote:

Henry,

Thanks for your feedback. I've enjoyed a lot of your advice since I started participating in this forum.

I've definitely considered the Nex-6 as an additional body too. I have a 7 and an original 5.

All technical specs aside, I'm just really intrigued with some of the results I see from the Fujis and that is why I am biting the bullet and giving it a try.

I do all my own fine art printing (I send out snapshots) on an Epson R2400. I print matte, and frame and even build some of my own frames. I started in the darkroom years ago. Anyway, my largest prints are 13x19, so 16mp is enough. I've really enjoyed the ability to crop out of Nex-7 photos though.

I am a Raw shooter with a dedicated workflow, so that is going to be a key part of my evaluation. I read so much on both sides and I guess I'm a find-out-for-myself kind of guy

The camera will be here tomorrow, so I think I'm committed to the evaluation now It doesn't mean I won't get the Nex-7 replacement, but I don't wait for camera bodies either. It will also be interesting to see the replacement to the X-Pro1. There is always something better on the horizon.

Again, I appreciate your feedback.

Rich

Thanks Rich.

There have been several Nex users that migrated from this Forum to the Fuji forum, as they traded their Nex system for either the X-Pro1 or the XE-1 Fuji cameras.

I have not been following their posts, but did come across an occasional discussion which led me to the conclusion that there is no free lunch anywhere.

The Nex has quirks, but so does the Fuji.

Both Sony and Fuji have been listening to their customer feedback, and have made the products improve over time.

What I have noticed, is that more 'experienced' and 'professional' photographers tend to favor Fuji - for a number of reasons: the gear is more expensive, the achievable results are high(er), the cameras are larger, and the cameras are more rare. For professional photo-shoots, a Fuji system passes easier as 'professional' than a Nex system, it seems.

To me, a lot of the discussions are about 100% crop, and marginal quality issues (CA, PF, distortion), which tells me that either camera system will get the job done, and is more subject to photographer, lighting, subject, framing, etc., than the gear itself.

The dedication of Fuji photographers shows in their pictures, imo, as well. These same photographers would get good images with other camera systems too.

But even I notice that with high-end legacy (RF) lenses, I easily get higher IQ out of the Nex cameras than with 'just' the E-mount lenses. Maybe not because the lenses are better, but because I try harder....

Do compare your post-edit results, as the OOC images vary wildly, and Fuji is known for more optimized (aggressive) JPG output, whereas Sony is a lot more neutral. After post, the images look very much alike.

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Henry

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dark13star
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to Tom2572, May 10, 2013

Deciding between two cameras is fine, and deciding between two lenses is fine, but when deciding between a camera and a lens the lens should win out every time. Put another way, when the Fuji X-E1 becomes a glorified paperweight in a few years like all the mirrorless cameras before it (PEN E-P1s can be had for $150 these days), the Touit lenses will still be current and still selling at their current list price.

I couldn't agree more. While I like the retro Fuji body, it's the lenses I find intriguing. I've still got lenses from my 1967 Nikkormat that I use, but I don't use that body. You bring up a good point, that the Zeiss lenses are likely to hold their value and that is an unknown for the Fuji at this point.

Rich

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dark13star
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Re: Funny comment from a friend
In reply to jazzroy1972, May 10, 2013

- optical viewfinder, being rangefinder style, does not have lens angle of view, so you have to rely on small markers and guess which will be the crop!

- evf is not on par with nex-7, so you cannot really rely on it for manual focusing.

so, if you go for image quality, go with fuji, if you go for ease of use, for me stay with Nex.

This is one reason I chose to try the X-E1. It doesn't have the optical viewfinder and it has an EVF on par with the Nex-7.

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dark13star
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, May 10, 2013

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I looked at these comparison pictures between Touit 32 and Fuji 35, and saw better corners in the former at wider apertures. I attributed that to potential lack of DOF due to slightly longer FL (although, 3mm is fairly negligible but when pixel peeping, it can matter).

I just want to be clear. I'm not making any decision based on those images. It would be foolish. I've just decided that this is the time to do my test before I sink another $2,200 into Nex lenses.

The nice thing is that those lenses are for both platforms.

As for corners, I'm not a corner peeper. I look for color rendition and micro-contrast and don't worry as much about the corners. Zeiss has often neglected corner sharpness in favor of these things in the past (to my eye) and I like that. Some are saying that they've gone the Canon-Nikon way with these lenses and neglected color and contrast for sharp corners. Frankly, I think it is too soon to know.

Thanks
Rich

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dark13star
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Great feedback-thank you
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

I just want to say thanks for the thoughtful feedback in this thread, and from some of the experienced members of this forum. All good stuff to consider.

As I've said, this isn't one of those, "I'm leaving Sony" threads, so I appreciate the insight.

The only decision I've committed to here is evaluating the Fuji before paying for the Zeiss lenses my photography is for fun and this will be a fun project too.

Rich

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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

I do think though that corner performance is important wide open, not so much in an ultra wide like 12/2.8 but definitely in fast lenses in 30-60mm range. Although, this is based on my use of these lenses for off-center compositions.

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dark13star
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, May 10, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I do think though that corner performance is important wide open, not so much in an ultra wide like 12/2.8 but definitely in fast lenses in 30-60mm range. Although, this is based on my use of these lenses for off-center compositions.

Fair statement. Again, all about tool for the job. Each lens, camera, human relationship, whatever... is a tradeoff. That's why I do think the Fuji might just become another camera for me. I'm not the type of person who is going to easily say Fuji is better than Sony or vice-versa.

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jcharding
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 10, 2013

Setting aside issues like focus peaking (which I think will ultimately end up with all systems) and video (a clear NEX advantage), I think your "choice" (preference.... ? whatever...) is simply going to come down you enjoy the respective shooting styles.  A very new school body or a very old school body.  Do the Fuji "quirks" (if they (a) still exist and (b) matter to you) irritate you as they did so many others.  Are the Fuji RAW issues such that they matter to your photography.

Personally, I think that last issue is where we start to cross over into DPReview over-analyzing.  Ultimately, the only things that really matter are do you enjoy the shooting experience and do you like the images.  A significant block of people swear by the Fuji in those instances.  Those same people also prefer the Fuji lenses over what they have seen thus far out of the X Mount versions of the Zeiss lenses, but at this point its really hard to compare the two pieces of glass.

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dark13star
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Re: Zeiss Touit or Fuji X decision
In reply to dark13star, May 17, 2013

Just to close out this thread, I've spent a week with the Fuji X-E1 and I love it. It is a camera that suits my style of shooting and since photography is a recreation to me, the fact that it is more fun (for me) than shooting with a Nex is a huge factor.

I love the OOC JPEG and the raw files are mostly good. There are a few with bright reds and yellow that need work to get right. That said, since the JPEGs are so good, raw is backup for when I need it.

The 35mm f/1.4 is amazing, like Leica glass and the low-light capabilities are great.

This is a Sony forum, so I'm not going to beat this horse here. My only advice is that if you are feeling like Fuji might be better for you than Nex, you really need to try it. Reading forums and comparing specs is no help.

I'll be putting a lot of my Nex equipment on eBay this weekend. I will miss my Zeiss 24mm, but I think I need to sell that and my Nex-7 to build out my Fuji system. Nex has been a great experiment for me and now Fuji will be my next one. Who knows, as this market matures, things can change.

Thanks for all the great advice I've gotten on this forum. As a life-long hobbyist in photography, I can really say there are some talented people in this group.

Rich

 dark13star's gear list:dark13star's gear list
Fujifilm X100S Fujifilm X-E1 Nikon D600 Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm X-T1 +10 more
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