Windows 8 shocker

Started May 7, 2013 | Discussions
1w12q312qw1
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to dradam, May 15, 2013

The setup wizard is already mind numbingly simple and I honestly can't imagine an OEM "simplifying" it more by removing basic options (and, I honestly can't imagine that Microsoft would even allow them to do this).

For most every complaint about Windows 8 UI operation I see around here there is usually a very simple, straight forward solution (usually 2 or 3 of them) yet people seem completely unwilling to spend even minimal effort looking for or trying them.  I don't know if this is from some gut reaction to the new that makes peoples brains just shut down, if people actually WANT it to be harder just so they can have more ammo to backup their hatred of Windows 8, or if I am severely over estimating peoples computer abilities.

You know, people would take you a little more seriously if you cut out the condescending attitude towards other forumers in most of your posts. You are "overestimating peoples computer abilities"????? What a pompass-a$$ thing to say to someone. And I don't care what kind of background you have, you are probably an "educated" idiot judging by your handle. You must belong to MENSA and your waste smells like lilacs, right?

Windows 8 was/is a disaster, it has ZERO curb-appeal, might be OK once you're inside, but as others have said, ones first reaction to something new is everything. There are TONS of computer-savvy experts in the media who say MS really shot themselves in the foot with 8, so all of these people must be maroons, too, according to you!

Tell me DrAdam - why in the heck is MS fixing and/or reinventing Windows 8 if it is as grande a UI as you say it is? Are they just doing it to pass the time of day? Are they doing it because 99% of computer users are low-IQ hacks as you state so categorically?

I'm sorry folks, I just can't stand condescension from anyone and this guy's posts are constantly putting down anyone who doesn't agree with him. He probably has a bunch of meaningless letters after his name and this allows him to look down upon us peons.

Have a nice day.

Stan

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dradam
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, May 15, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

The setup wizard is already mind numbingly simple and I honestly can't imagine an OEM "simplifying" it more by removing basic options (and, I honestly can't imagine that Microsoft would even allow them to do this).

For most every complaint about Windows 8 UI operation I see around here there is usually a very simple, straight forward solution (usually 2 or 3 of them) yet people seem completely unwilling to spend even minimal effort looking for or trying them.  I don't know if this is from some gut reaction to the new that makes peoples brains just shut down, if people actually WANT it to be harder just so they can have more ammo to backup their hatred of Windows 8, or if I am severely over estimating peoples computer abilities.

You know, people would take you a little more seriously if you cut out the condescending attitude towards other forumers in most of your posts. You are "overestimating peoples computer abilities"????? What a pompass-a$$ thing to say to someone. And I don't care what kind of background you have, you are probably an "educated" idiot judging by your handle. You must belong to MENSA and your waste smells like lilacs, right?

Look to yourself and your compatriots for condescending attitude and pompous security in the belief that THEIR way is the one true way.  I make no judgements about inexperienced or non-expert users (I would even include myself in the 2nd category), but yes, I do question the abilities of someone with "40 years of computer experience" that can't figure out how to create a new user without a Microsoft account starting at this screen:

HINT: If you read ALL the options you might find one you like

Windows 8 was/is a disaster, it has ZERO curb-appeal, might be OK once you're inside, but as others have said, ones first reaction to something new is everything. There are TONS of computer-savvy experts in the media who say MS really shot themselves in the foot with 8, so all of these people must be maroons, too, according to you!

Now who's being pompous towards those with a different opinion?

I am more than happy to talk about the shortcomings of Windows 8.  There are quite a few that they will hopefully address as the system matures. Unfortunately, to do so around here you have to wade through so many pages full of sensational bull and wrong/miss-information that being a dissenting opinion is more interesting.

Tell me DrAdam - why in the heck is MS fixing and/or reinventing Windows 8 if it is as grande a UI as you say it is? Are they just doing it to pass the time of day? Are they doing it because 99% of computer users are low-IQ hacks as you state so categorically?

When enough "experts" trip getting onto your new moving walkway that they start running around and scaring the general public away from it, you eventually you just turn the thing off.

I'm sorry folks, I just can't stand condescension from anyone and this guy's posts are constantly putting down anyone who doesn't agree with him. He probably has a bunch of meaningless letters after his name and this allows him to look down upon us peons.

I'm sorry I interrupted your little "victory" party.  Please don't feel the need to stop congratulating eachother about how awesomely right you all were on my account.

Have a nice day.

You too!

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theswede
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to digital ed, May 15, 2013

I just do not get all this crying that the Win 8 GUI is not intuitive.

It's not crying. It's the observation that the GUI has no visual cues for basic tasks. That is user unfriendly, and especially casual user and beginner unfriendly.

Years ago when I started using the first Windows OS/GUI nothing was intuitive.

Quite so. But the GUI contained visual cues how to use it. If you had no idea where to start, clicking the button named "start" might be a good idea, for example. And skeumorphic features on the application windows, consistency between applications and plain text in menus and dialogs made learning to get basic tasks done doable for pretty much anyone.

We all learned quickly. When Apple came out with their first computer and OS, it was not intuitive, but we learned.

Most people didn't. The Apple I did not sell all that many copies. The Apple II didn't really take off until the spreadsheet for it came out, and then it was mostly used as a spreadsheet machine, not as a general purpose computer.

Very few non-enthusiast and non-IT people used the OS'es on the pre-GUI machines for anything but typing in the names of the one or two applications they used.

By the way, I am a PC user and fumble around when today I have to use an Apple with their new GUIs. Very little intuitive for me in the Apple GUI.

If you are so stuck that you find clicking on an application to start it and clicking the red button on the top of the window to close it it's a wonder you get around in Windows even. The differences between OSX and Windows 7 for basic tasks are mainly cosmetic. It's only when you have to do administrative tasks that you find OSX only having one place for all of that compared to Windows having it spread out all over.

Same for Linux and I have built from MB up several Linux machines.

That's like saying "I drive a Ford so I don't find my way in European car design". Linux does not have a single GUI to talk about. Whether or not you use Gnome, KDE or some other major (or minor) GUI (with the exception of tiling ons like ratpoison) the basic tasks are done the same as in every other major GUI on the planet except Windows 8. Only when doing administration do tasks differ.

I am not even going to mention Android tablets using ICS.

What's so bad about it? Select an app to start it, push the close button to close it. No hidden hot corners, no swipes across the screen to get to basic things like the second app you started. Visual cues and skeumorphism abound, just like in all other major GUI's. Except Windows 8, of course.

W/R to user name, what is not intuitive about plain English on the page? Unfortunately it takes a little personal thinking.

If it takes a written description it is by definition not intuitive.

W/R to logon, it took me about 1 minute to figure out how to get to the logon. I just pushed the space bar.

That's one minute more than it should have taken. What's intuitive about sitting staring at a screen for one minute and then tentatively trying the space bar and being greeted by a reaction which there was no point in having to press a button to get?

Jesper

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Archer66
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to dradam, May 15, 2013

dradam wrote:

For most every complaint about Windows 8 UI operation I see around here there is usually a very simple, straight forward solution (usually 2 or 3 of them) yet people seem completely unwilling to spend even minimal effort looking for or trying them.

Its just much more popular to bash Win 8.

Just ignore them and move on.

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Archer66
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to theswede, May 15, 2013

theswede wrote:

I am not even going to mention Android tablets using ICS.

What's so bad about it? Select an app to start it, push the close button to close it. No hidden hot corners, no swipes across the screen to get to basic things like the second app you started. Visual cues and skeumorphism abound, just like in all other major GUI's. Except Windows 8, of course.

Clearly you havent used any Android tablets. I'm regretting my decision to upgrade my tablet from 3.2 to 4.0.

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theswede
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to Archer66, May 15, 2013

Clearly you havent used any Android tablets.

I've used (and owned) several Android tablets.

I'm regretting my decision to upgrade my tablet from 3.2 to 4.0.

That's a bit more specific. I haven't used any 4.0 tablets. Do you have a link to someone summarizing the issues with the OS?

Jesper

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Sean Nelson
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to theswede, May 15, 2013

theswede wrote:

It's not crying. It's the observation that the GUI has no visual cues for basic tasks. That is user unfriendly, and especially casual user and beginner unfriendly.

The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.  The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

The problem isn't really that Windows 8 has a bad touch UI - it's that such a UI is inappropriate for desktop users and they shouldn't be dumped into it by default.

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theswede
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to Sean Nelson, May 15, 2013

The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.  The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

Windows 8 on my desktop system has no touch UI. It has Metro and classic, and neither of them are touch, because there is no touch screen on my desktop PC.

And when Metro pops up there are no cues on how to get to classic. In fact, there are no clues at all that classic even exists. And whenever a Metro app happens to start (or just get to the foreground if running in the background stealing resources) there are no cues on how to get away from it.

The problem isn't really that Windows 8 has a bad touch UI - it's that such a UI is inappropriate for desktop users and they shouldn't be dumped into it by default.

The problem is manifold. Even on a touch enabled screen Metro is very hard to get to grips with since it makes heavy use of gestures. iOS and Android (at least before 4.0; no idea after) have gestures as options, not core interaction mechanics. Everything can be done through visible buttons, slides to move a skeumorphic surface or hardware buttons. Very easy to get and explain.

Windows 8 uses non-obvious gestures (slide from top to bottom to get a list of applications running - how am I supposed to figure that out?) and has no obvious way to do basic tasks (like getting a list of all the programs which can be started on the machine, like, say, a start menu provides).

The main issue with Windows 8 is that if I sit down at an unfamiliar Windows 8 computer I am pretty much handicapped. I have no obvious ways to navigate, find the programs installed, or just Get Things Done. Windows 7 is pretty bad, but at least I can get stuff going on it despite having been away from it for a few months without major issues or having to resort to googling (on my phone) how to do things that on Windows 7 would be "click the start button and look for a reasonable program name".

Other touch UI's (and desktop GUI's) manage to get out of my way and allow me to focus on tasks and applications. Windows 8 insists I learn a bunch of gestures just to get around, and if I don't know them I'm unable to use it.

If I have to memorize a bunch of functions I'll just use bash on a POSIX system. That's been around for forty-odd years and will be around for at least forty-odd more years. Windows 8 and its horrid gestures will be gone within a decade.

Jesper

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Archer66
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to theswede, May 15, 2013

theswede wrote:

The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.  The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

Windows 8 on my desktop system has no touch UI. It has Metro and classic, and neither of them are touch, because there is no touch screen on my desktop PC.

And when Metro pops up there are no cues on how to get to classic. In fact, there are no clues at all that classic even exists.

Hint: a tile called "desktop".

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theswede
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to Archer66, May 15, 2013

Hint: a tile called "desktop".

And that tile is how visible when a Metro app is running? Plus, all those gaudy tiles are not even consistent in where they're placed. They can be anywhere, including hidden, at any time, and will be in different places on different computers - and on the same computer as it gets used.

What makes a UI intuitive is consistency. Windows 8 is not even consistent with itself, much less with applications and older versions of Windows. It will thus never be intuitive.

Jesper

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1w12q312qw1
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to dradam, May 15, 2013

When enough "experts" trip getting onto your new moving walkway that they start running around and scaring the general public away from it, you eventually you just turn the thing off.

I'm sorry folks, I just can't stand condescension from anyone and this guy's posts are constantly putting down anyone who doesn't agree with him. He probably has a bunch of meaningless letters after his name and this allows him to look down upon us peons.

I'm sorry I interrupted your little "victory" party.  Please don't feel the need to stop congratulating eachother about how awesomely right you all were on my account.

Have a nice day.

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

You come here with the attitude that anyone and everyone who sees fault with Windows 8 does not have the intelligence that you possess to understand and operate it. You and Archer66 (see below) are obviously in the 1% who can operate W8 while the rest of us knuckle-draggers just look at the tiles and are dumb-founded. We are like little babies crying "I want my start-button - waaaaah!"

I fail to see a victory party going on here, I'm not a MS fanboy like you and Archer. Plenty of people have compared W8 to the New Coke where a huge company totally misjudged their customers' tastes. So according to your impeccable logic, the New Coke was a flop because people didn't have the correct taste buds to appreciate it, correct?

You're just as much of a pompass-a$$ this morning as you were last night.

Stan

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Archer66
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to theswede, May 15, 2013

theswede wrote:

Plus, all those gaudy tiles are not even consistent in where they're placed. They can be anywhere, including hidden, at any time, and will be in different places on different computers - and on the same computer as it gets used.

User can arrange tiles as he/she wishes.

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Archer66
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Re: It's just an OS.
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, May 15, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

What I don't get is the constant whining.

You don't like Win 8, fine no big deal.

It's just an OS, no one is forcing you to use it.

Geez, get a life.

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1w12q312qw1
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Re: It's just an OS.
In reply to Archer66, May 15, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

What I don't get is the constant whining.

You don't like Win 8, fine no big deal.

It's just an OS, no one is forcing you to use it.

Geez, get a life.

When you make a statement like: "It's just more popular to bash W8", you're implying some sort of mass hysteria where people are not thinking rationally. When Dradam states that he is among the chosen few who have "figured out" how to navigate W8, maybe he is illustrating perfectly WHY W8 is a disaster.

MS looked at the market and panicked in my honest opinion. They can read a graph as well as anyone and they decided to make wholesale changes to right the ship. As many have said in this thread, they would not be getting any of this blowback if they had given the user two options for Virtual-W7 and/or Metro.

Right, no one is forcing you to use any Windows version, but let's call a spade a spade, specifically that MS made a huge blunder. Can they bounce back? Probably, but the PC market is changing at warp-speed and to see companies like Samsung and LG make inroads on Apple territory is stunning, to say the least. And for Microsoft to see their share of the computer business dwindling (no matter what their sales claims state), in their panic they produced W8. And when companies panic, customers can sense it. Adobe's new policy is another example of corporate-panic.

Yes, let's keep the back-and-forth rational, I'll try my best but I will not put up with condescension from anyone.

Kind regards,

Stan

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dradam
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, May 15, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

When enough "experts" trip getting onto your new moving walkway that they start running around and scaring the general public away from it, you eventually you just turn the thing off.

I'm sorry folks, I just can't stand condescension from anyone and this guy's posts are constantly putting down anyone who doesn't agree with him. He probably has a bunch of meaningless letters after his name and this allows him to look down upon us peons.

I'm sorry I interrupted your little "victory" party.  Please don't feel the need to stop congratulating eachother about how awesomely right you all were on my account.

Have a nice day.

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

Kinda hung up on this whole IQ thing that you concocted in your head, aren't ya?

You come here with the attitude that anyone and everyone who sees fault with Windows 8 does not have the intelligence that you possess to understand and operate it. You and Archer66 (see below) are obviously in the 1% who can operate W8 while the rest of us knuckle-draggers just look at the tiles and are dumb-founded. We are like little babies crying "I want my start-button - waaaaah!"

I come into these threads looking for the "rational" discussion of Windows 8 and it's advantages (according to folks like you, there are apparently none of these) and disadvantages (I am more than willing that there are a number of these).  Instead, I see threads where supposed computer "experts"  are completely hung up on some of the more trivial aspects of the operation of the system.  They can't figure out how to get to the desktop; they can't find a list of all installed programs; they can't figure out how to shutdown the computer, and once they know how to shutdown the computer, the fact that it is in a slightly different place somehow shows that it's end of days for Microsoft.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).  But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

I fail to see a victory party going on here, I'm not a MS fanboy like you and Archer. Plenty of people have compared W8 to the New Coke where a huge company totally misjudged their customers' tastes. So according to your impeccable logic, the New Coke was a flop because people didn't have the correct taste buds to appreciate it, correct?

I haven't seen a single comparison to New Coke until someone from Microsoft brought it up the other day.  But I don't read every single article so I can't really speak to how common the comparison is.

Fun fact, Coca Cola took the formula from New Coke, replaced the corn syrup with artificial sweeteners, and it is now the 2nd most popular soda on the planet (Diet Coke).

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1w12q312qw1
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to dradam, May 15, 2013

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

Kinda hung up on this whole IQ thing that you concocted in your head, aren't ya?

It's the way you speak to people that makes you come off as an "elitist" and/or "snobbish". Sorry to be so blunt and sorry that offends you so much.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).  But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

And your mind is made up that Microsoft has a winner with W8, correct? So the fact that they're retooling it means nada, correct? And the fact that these "trivial" quirks of W8 seem to bother many people in this thread and not you means what exactly?

Your assumptions/conclusions in your paragraph above show what an elitist/snob you are. OK, people just shut down when faced with something new and/or different if that makes you happy. Sorry again but the manner in which you converse is repulsive to me.

Stan

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digital ed
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, May 15, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

Kinda hung up on this whole IQ thing that you concocted in your head, aren't ya?

It's the way you speak to people that makes you come off as an "elitist" and/or "snobbish". Sorry to be so blunt and sorry that offends you so much.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).  But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

And your mind is made up that Microsoft has a winner with W8, correct? So the fact that they're retooling it means nada, correct? And the fact that these "trivial" quirks of W8 seem to bother many people in this thread and not you means what exactly?

Your assumptions/conclusions in your paragraph above show what an elitist/snob you are. OK, people just shut down when faced with something new and/or different if that makes you happy. Sorry again but the manner in which you converse is repulsive to me.

Stan

Stan,

There is no reason for personal attacks in this or any other DPR forum. I and others disagree with some of your opinions but find no reason to argue with you. My only advice is chill out.

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theswede
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to Archer66, May 15, 2013

User can arrange tiles as he/she wishes.

Which is exactly what is wrong with that UI paradigm. If I sit down by my colleague's computer, how am I to do any work there? When $RELATIVE calls with a support question, where do I tell them to click to open the software or setting which will solve their problem?

It's not thought through, not by Microsoft nor by you. The whole paradigm is broken, on a level much lower than just implementation details. There's nothing to salvage in the UI, and it's going to be gone within a few years. Any time spent learning it is wasted.

Jesper

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theswede
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to dradam, May 15, 2013

I come into these threads looking for the "rational" discussion of Windows 8 and it's advantages (according to folks like you, there are apparently none of these)

Not really, no. Over Windows 7 it has some newer drivers and improvements in headline grabbers like startup time. Nothing substantial for neither corporate use, typical light home use or gaming.

and disadvantages (I am more than willing that there are a number of these).

Indeed there are.

Instead, I see threads where supposed computer "experts"  are completely hung up on some of the more trivial aspects of the operation of the system.

When trivial aspects of the operation of the system are broken that has tremendous impact on the usability of it. The trivial parts are the ones which have to work flawlessly for the system to become transparent to the user and stay out of the way. When they do not, but instead interfere with everyday operation they become a very big deal.

They can't figure out how to get to the desktop; they can't find a list of all installed programs; they can't figure out how to shutdown the computer, and once they know how to shutdown the computer, the fact that it is in a slightly different place somehow shows that it's end of days for Microsoft.

Actually the end of days for Microsoft is because desktop and laptop systems are a mature market now. But that they make sucky products isn't helping, of course.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).

Most of my real work gets done on Windows 7 and OSX, but I get a fair share done on Debian Linux, which is hardly obscure. My relaxation, surfing and gaming is mostly done on Linux.

But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

It takes me a lot more than 10 seconds more to help $RELATIVE over the phone how to change a setting in Windows 8 compared to in Windows 7. Not just because I need to spend a lot more time finding it (it's pretty awful how Windows versions vary in where they keep settings) but also because the UI is not consistent and predictable. Suddenly there is a full screen app in the way which has no close button, and suddenly there is no tile visible with the expected name, and if the OS is set to a different language (usually I support four different language setups for friends and relatives, but sometimes it's not one of those four either) I can't just say where it should be on screen, I have to google the name of the setting to be able to let them search.

It's a failure in so many ways it's painful. There's nothing redeeming about it.

Fun fact, Coca Cola took the formula from New Coke, replaced the corn syrup with artificial sweeteners, and it is now the 2nd most popular soda on the planet (Diet Coke).

Which supports that addressing the issue which people complained about (New Coke is too sweet) creates a superior product.

Kind of like how Microsoft could fix Windows 8.

Jesper

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Sean Nelson
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to theswede, May 15, 2013

theswede wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:
The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.

Windows 8 on my desktop system has no touch UI. It has Metro and classic, and neither of them are touch, because there is no touch screen on my desktop PC.

"UI" (User Interface) is generally used to described software, not hardware. I use the term "touch UI" to refer to the "Metro"-style user interface, just as I use "desktop UI" to refer to the traditional Windows DWM (Desktop Window Manager) GUI interface.

The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

Windows 8 uses non-obvious gestures (slide from top to bottom to get a list of applications running - how am I supposed to figure that out?)

Swipes from the side are a standard touch UI technique, similar to right-clicking for a desktop UI.  No, they're not obvious for someone used to a desktop, but they're par for the course for mobile devices.   Anyone used to a touch UI who wasn't familiar with a particular mobile OS would try swipes from the side to see what they do.   I don't see that as a failing of Windows 8.

The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.The problem isn't really that Windows 8 has a bad touch UI - it's that such a UI is inappropriate for desktop users and they shouldn't be dumped into it by default.

The main issue with Windows 8 is that if I sit down at an unfamiliar Windows 8 computer I am pretty much handicapped. I have no obvious ways to navigate, find the programs installed, or just Get Things Done.

This is exactly my point.   The big problem for Windows 8 is in dumping you into the touch UI in the first place, even though your system doesn't have the hardware to recognize touch gestures.

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