Windows 8 shocker

Started May 7, 2013 | Discussions
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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: Not intutive

Clearly you havent used any Android tablets.

I've used (and owned) several Android tablets.

I'm regretting my decision to upgrade my tablet from 3.2 to 4.0.

That's a bit more specific. I haven't used any 4.0 tablets. Do you have a link to someone summarizing the issues with the OS?

Jesper

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,802
Re: Not intutive

theswede wrote:

It's not crying. It's the observation that the GUI has no visual cues for basic tasks. That is user unfriendly, and especially casual user and beginner unfriendly.

The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.  The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

The problem isn't really that Windows 8 has a bad touch UI - it's that such a UI is inappropriate for desktop users and they shouldn't be dumped into it by default.

theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: Not intutive

The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.  The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

Windows 8 on my desktop system has no touch UI. It has Metro and classic, and neither of them are touch, because there is no touch screen on my desktop PC.

And when Metro pops up there are no cues on how to get to classic. In fact, there are no clues at all that classic even exists. And whenever a Metro app happens to start (or just get to the foreground if running in the background stealing resources) there are no cues on how to get away from it.

The problem isn't really that Windows 8 has a bad touch UI - it's that such a UI is inappropriate for desktop users and they shouldn't be dumped into it by default.

The problem is manifold. Even on a touch enabled screen Metro is very hard to get to grips with since it makes heavy use of gestures. iOS and Android (at least before 4.0; no idea after) have gestures as options, not core interaction mechanics. Everything can be done through visible buttons, slides to move a skeumorphic surface or hardware buttons. Very easy to get and explain.

Windows 8 uses non-obvious gestures (slide from top to bottom to get a list of applications running - how am I supposed to figure that out?) and has no obvious way to do basic tasks (like getting a list of all the programs which can be started on the machine, like, say, a start menu provides).

The main issue with Windows 8 is that if I sit down at an unfamiliar Windows 8 computer I am pretty much handicapped. I have no obvious ways to navigate, find the programs installed, or just Get Things Done. Windows 7 is pretty bad, but at least I can get stuff going on it despite having been away from it for a few months without major issues or having to resort to googling (on my phone) how to do things that on Windows 7 would be "click the start button and look for a reasonable program name".

Other touch UI's (and desktop GUI's) manage to get out of my way and allow me to focus on tasks and applications. Windows 8 insists I learn a bunch of gestures just to get around, and if I don't know them I'm unable to use it.

If I have to memorize a bunch of functions I'll just use bash on a POSIX system. That's been around for forty-odd years and will be around for at least forty-odd more years. Windows 8 and its horrid gestures will be gone within a decade.

Jesper

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Archer66 Senior Member • Posts: 2,927
Re: Not intutive

theswede wrote:

The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.  The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

Windows 8 on my desktop system has no touch UI. It has Metro and classic, and neither of them are touch, because there is no touch screen on my desktop PC.

And when Metro pops up there are no cues on how to get to classic. In fact, there are no clues at all that classic even exists.

Hint: a tile called "desktop".

theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: Not intutive

Hint: a tile called "desktop".

And that tile is how visible when a Metro app is running? Plus, all those gaudy tiles are not even consistent in where they're placed. They can be anywhere, including hidden, at any time, and will be in different places on different computers - and on the same computer as it gets used.

What makes a UI intuitive is consistency. Windows 8 is not even consistent with itself, much less with applications and older versions of Windows. It will thus never be intuitive.

Jesper

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1w12q312qw1 Contributing Member • Posts: 732
Re: You're making my point

When enough "experts" trip getting onto your new moving walkway that they start running around and scaring the general public away from it, you eventually you just turn the thing off.

I'm sorry folks, I just can't stand condescension from anyone and this guy's posts are constantly putting down anyone who doesn't agree with him. He probably has a bunch of meaningless letters after his name and this allows him to look down upon us peons.

I'm sorry I interrupted your little "victory" party.  Please don't feel the need to stop congratulating eachother about how awesomely right you all were on my account.

Have a nice day.

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

You come here with the attitude that anyone and everyone who sees fault with Windows 8 does not have the intelligence that you possess to understand and operate it. You and Archer66 (see below) are obviously in the 1% who can operate W8 while the rest of us knuckle-draggers just look at the tiles and are dumb-founded. We are like little babies crying "I want my start-button - waaaaah!"

I fail to see a victory party going on here, I'm not a MS fanboy like you and Archer. Plenty of people have compared W8 to the New Coke where a huge company totally misjudged their customers' tastes. So according to your impeccable logic, the New Coke was a flop because people didn't have the correct taste buds to appreciate it, correct?

You're just as much of a pompass-a$$ this morning as you were last night.

Stan

Archer66 Senior Member • Posts: 2,927
Re: Not intutive

theswede wrote:

Plus, all those gaudy tiles are not even consistent in where they're placed. They can be anywhere, including hidden, at any time, and will be in different places on different computers - and on the same computer as it gets used.

User can arrange tiles as he/she wishes.

Archer66 Senior Member • Posts: 2,927
Re: It's just an OS.

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

What I don't get is the constant whining.

You don't like Win 8, fine no big deal.

It's just an OS, no one is forcing you to use it.

Geez, get a life.

1w12q312qw1 Contributing Member • Posts: 732
Re: It's just an OS.

Archer66 wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

What I don't get is the constant whining.

You don't like Win 8, fine no big deal.

It's just an OS, no one is forcing you to use it.

Geez, get a life.

When you make a statement like: "It's just more popular to bash W8", you're implying some sort of mass hysteria where people are not thinking rationally. When Dradam states that he is among the chosen few who have "figured out" how to navigate W8, maybe he is illustrating perfectly WHY W8 is a disaster.

MS looked at the market and panicked in my honest opinion. They can read a graph as well as anyone and they decided to make wholesale changes to right the ship. As many have said in this thread, they would not be getting any of this blowback if they had given the user two options for Virtual-W7 and/or Metro.

Right, no one is forcing you to use any Windows version, but let's call a spade a spade, specifically that MS made a huge blunder. Can they bounce back? Probably, but the PC market is changing at warp-speed and to see companies like Samsung and LG make inroads on Apple territory is stunning, to say the least. And for Microsoft to see their share of the computer business dwindling (no matter what their sales claims state), in their panic they produced W8. And when companies panic, customers can sense it. Adobe's new policy is another example of corporate-panic.

Yes, let's keep the back-and-forth rational, I'll try my best but I will not put up with condescension from anyone.

Kind regards,

Stan

dradam Senior Member • Posts: 2,783
Re: You're making my point
1

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

When enough "experts" trip getting onto your new moving walkway that they start running around and scaring the general public away from it, you eventually you just turn the thing off.

I'm sorry folks, I just can't stand condescension from anyone and this guy's posts are constantly putting down anyone who doesn't agree with him. He probably has a bunch of meaningless letters after his name and this allows him to look down upon us peons.

I'm sorry I interrupted your little "victory" party.  Please don't feel the need to stop congratulating eachother about how awesomely right you all were on my account.

Have a nice day.

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

Kinda hung up on this whole IQ thing that you concocted in your head, aren't ya?

You come here with the attitude that anyone and everyone who sees fault with Windows 8 does not have the intelligence that you possess to understand and operate it. You and Archer66 (see below) are obviously in the 1% who can operate W8 while the rest of us knuckle-draggers just look at the tiles and are dumb-founded. We are like little babies crying "I want my start-button - waaaaah!"

I come into these threads looking for the "rational" discussion of Windows 8 and it's advantages (according to folks like you, there are apparently none of these) and disadvantages (I am more than willing that there are a number of these).  Instead, I see threads where supposed computer "experts"  are completely hung up on some of the more trivial aspects of the operation of the system.  They can't figure out how to get to the desktop; they can't find a list of all installed programs; they can't figure out how to shutdown the computer, and once they know how to shutdown the computer, the fact that it is in a slightly different place somehow shows that it's end of days for Microsoft.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).  But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

I fail to see a victory party going on here, I'm not a MS fanboy like you and Archer. Plenty of people have compared W8 to the New Coke where a huge company totally misjudged their customers' tastes. So according to your impeccable logic, the New Coke was a flop because people didn't have the correct taste buds to appreciate it, correct?

I haven't seen a single comparison to New Coke until someone from Microsoft brought it up the other day.  But I don't read every single article so I can't really speak to how common the comparison is.

Fun fact, Coca Cola took the formula from New Coke, replaced the corn syrup with artificial sweeteners, and it is now the 2nd most popular soda on the planet (Diet Coke).

1w12q312qw1 Contributing Member • Posts: 732
Re: You're making my point

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

Kinda hung up on this whole IQ thing that you concocted in your head, aren't ya?

It's the way you speak to people that makes you come off as an "elitist" and/or "snobbish". Sorry to be so blunt and sorry that offends you so much.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).  But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

And your mind is made up that Microsoft has a winner with W8, correct? So the fact that they're retooling it means nada, correct? And the fact that these "trivial" quirks of W8 seem to bother many people in this thread and not you means what exactly?

Your assumptions/conclusions in your paragraph above show what an elitist/snob you are. OK, people just shut down when faced with something new and/or different if that makes you happy. Sorry again but the manner in which you converse is repulsive to me.

Stan

digital ed
digital ed Veteran Member • Posts: 3,463
Re: You're making my point
1

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

What the heck is the "victory party" you're talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, probably because my IQ is nowhere near yours.

Kinda hung up on this whole IQ thing that you concocted in your head, aren't ya?

It's the way you speak to people that makes you come off as an "elitist" and/or "snobbish". Sorry to be so blunt and sorry that offends you so much.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).  But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

And your mind is made up that Microsoft has a winner with W8, correct? So the fact that they're retooling it means nada, correct? And the fact that these "trivial" quirks of W8 seem to bother many people in this thread and not you means what exactly?

Your assumptions/conclusions in your paragraph above show what an elitist/snob you are. OK, people just shut down when faced with something new and/or different if that makes you happy. Sorry again but the manner in which you converse is repulsive to me.

Stan

Stan,

There is no reason for personal attacks in this or any other DPR forum. I and others disagree with some of your opinions but find no reason to argue with you. My only advice is chill out.

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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: Not intutive

User can arrange tiles as he/she wishes.

Which is exactly what is wrong with that UI paradigm. If I sit down by my colleague's computer, how am I to do any work there? When $RELATIVE calls with a support question, where do I tell them to click to open the software or setting which will solve their problem?

It's not thought through, not by Microsoft nor by you. The whole paradigm is broken, on a level much lower than just implementation details. There's nothing to salvage in the UI, and it's going to be gone within a few years. Any time spent learning it is wasted.

Jesper

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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
Re: You're making my point

I come into these threads looking for the "rational" discussion of Windows 8 and it's advantages (according to folks like you, there are apparently none of these)

Not really, no. Over Windows 7 it has some newer drivers and improvements in headline grabbers like startup time. Nothing substantial for neither corporate use, typical light home use or gaming.

and disadvantages (I am more than willing that there are a number of these).

Indeed there are.

Instead, I see threads where supposed computer "experts"  are completely hung up on some of the more trivial aspects of the operation of the system.

When trivial aspects of the operation of the system are broken that has tremendous impact on the usability of it. The trivial parts are the ones which have to work flawlessly for the system to become transparent to the user and stay out of the way. When they do not, but instead interfere with everyday operation they become a very big deal.

They can't figure out how to get to the desktop; they can't find a list of all installed programs; they can't figure out how to shutdown the computer, and once they know how to shutdown the computer, the fact that it is in a slightly different place somehow shows that it's end of days for Microsoft.

Actually the end of days for Microsoft is because desktop and laptop systems are a mature market now. But that they make sucky products isn't helping, of course.

These people aren't the general public, they are computer people.  They run obscure linux distros, and get "real" work done (talk about condescension).

Most of my real work gets done on Windows 7 and OSX, but I get a fair share done on Debian Linux, which is hardly obscure. My relaxation, surfing and gaming is mostly done on Linux.

But when faced with a new system like Windows 8 they apparently just shut down.  Many of the complaints I see are simply not problems if you try for just 10 seconds, but I guess that's not even necessary when you already have your mind made up.

It takes me a lot more than 10 seconds more to help $RELATIVE over the phone how to change a setting in Windows 8 compared to in Windows 7. Not just because I need to spend a lot more time finding it (it's pretty awful how Windows versions vary in where they keep settings) but also because the UI is not consistent and predictable. Suddenly there is a full screen app in the way which has no close button, and suddenly there is no tile visible with the expected name, and if the OS is set to a different language (usually I support four different language setups for friends and relatives, but sometimes it's not one of those four either) I can't just say where it should be on screen, I have to google the name of the setting to be able to let them search.

It's a failure in so many ways it's painful. There's nothing redeeming about it.

Fun fact, Coca Cola took the formula from New Coke, replaced the corn syrup with artificial sweeteners, and it is now the 2nd most popular soda on the planet (Diet Coke).

Which supports that addressing the issue which people complained about (New Coke is too sweet) creates a superior product.

Kind of like how Microsoft could fix Windows 8.

Jesper

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,802
Re: Not intutive

theswede wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:
The desktop UI still uses the standard visual cues such as menus, window button, etc.   It's the Touch UI that lacks visual cues, and there's a good reason for that - extremely precious real estate on mobile devices.

Windows 8 on my desktop system has no touch UI. It has Metro and classic, and neither of them are touch, because there is no touch screen on my desktop PC.

"UI" (User Interface) is generally used to described software, not hardware. I use the term "touch UI" to refer to the "Metro"-style user interface, just as I use "desktop UI" to refer to the traditional Windows DWM (Desktop Window Manager) GUI interface.

The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.

Windows 8 uses non-obvious gestures (slide from top to bottom to get a list of applications running - how am I supposed to figure that out?)

Swipes from the side are a standard touch UI technique, similar to right-clicking for a desktop UI.  No, they're not obvious for someone used to a desktop, but they're par for the course for mobile devices.   Anyone used to a touch UI who wasn't familiar with a particular mobile OS would try swipes from the side to see what they do.   I don't see that as a failing of Windows 8.

The lack of visual cues in a touch UI isn't something that's specific to Windows - it's the style used on all mobile devices.The problem isn't really that Windows 8 has a bad touch UI - it's that such a UI is inappropriate for desktop users and they shouldn't be dumped into it by default.

The main issue with Windows 8 is that if I sit down at an unfamiliar Windows 8 computer I am pretty much handicapped. I have no obvious ways to navigate, find the programs installed, or just Get Things Done.

This is exactly my point.   The big problem for Windows 8 is in dumping you into the touch UI in the first place, even though your system doesn't have the hardware to recognize touch gestures.

Archer66 Senior Member • Posts: 2,927
Re: Not intutive

theswede wrote:

User can arrange tiles as he/she wishes.

Which is exactly what is wrong with that UI paradigm.

NO, user should always be able to customize UI and software he/she uses to his/her liking.

Archer66 Senior Member • Posts: 2,927
Re: You're making my point

theswede wrote:

I come into these threads looking for the "rational" discussion of Windows 8 and it's advantages (according to folks like you, there are apparently none of these)

Not really, no. Over Windows 7 it has some newer drivers and improvements in headline grabbers like startup time. Nothing substantial for neither corporate use, typical light home use or gaming.

Thats your opinion but others disagree, for example here are some things that are better for corporate users:

- UEFI.

- Hyper-V client.

- Improved File history ( Time machine for you Mac users ).

- Large disk support ( over 2TB ).

- New Task Manager.

- Better printing.

Etc etc.

1w12q312qw1 Contributing Member • Posts: 732
Re: You're making my point

ed,

I couldn't agree more. But calling out someone for an "elitist" attitude is not really a personal attack on his moral character or personal ethics. It is moreover a reaction to his "style" or "manner of speaking". Many doctors will talk "at" their patients and not "with" them and that habit is disconcerting to me and reflective of a "superior" attitude. I have no ill will towards anyone here and I will lighten up as soon as certain people stop talking down to everyone else here. It's the little catch-phrases that give a window into a person's heart and mind.

Stan

nekrosoft13 Regular Member • Posts: 440
Re: Windows 8 shocker

malch wrote:

"Microsoft is preparing to reverse course over key elements of its Windows 8 operating system, marking one of the most prominent admissions of failure for a new mass-market consumer product since Coca-Cola’s New Coke fiasco nearly 30 years ago."

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/330c8b8e-b66b-11e2-93ba-00144feabdc0.html

rumor is that start button and boot to desktop is coming back that is great but....

biggest problem with windows 8 is metro and start screen, they really should bring back the start menu and let the user choose if they want to use the new giant unoptimized, user un-friendly metro interface or the old proven fast, responsible minimalistic start menu.

I have windows 8 on one PC and I still haven't found a useful metro app, its sad that third party companies are fixing OS and MS can't.

Startdock managed to run metro apps in window, again something that MS should do, there is no reason why a simple app that has almost no options require to take up entire screen on 22-24- or even 27 inch screen. On tablet it makes sence, but not on PC.

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nekrosoft13 Regular Member • Posts: 440
Re: Not intutive

Archer66 wrote:

theswede wrote:

User can arrange tiles as he/she wishes.

Which is exactly what is wrong with that UI paradigm.

NO, user should always be able to customize UI and software he/she uses to his/her liking.

very true, that why there should be option to turn of metro and use start menu.

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