Windows 8 shocker

Started May 7, 2013 | Discussions
Jim Cockfield
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Re: Mepis Beta 1 published yesterday
In reply to CAcreeks, May 14, 2013

CAcreeks wrote:

Thanks Jim, I will check it out when I have some spare time (might not be until a later Beta).

That may be a good idea (wait until a later beta), depending on your patience level and understanding on linux internals to compensate for any bugs in an earlier beta.

Again, this is the first Mepis beta based on Debian 7.0/Wheezy (just released on May 4th), and the first Mepis beta is going to be a bit buggy, since there is a lot of things in Mepis that are not pure Debian (installers, extra repositories for other software outside of Debian, extra utilities for user management, system management,  and more).

For example, the Mepis installer is a custom installer and I'm hearing that the first beta release has problems if you try to create a separate home partition (so you'll need to use a home folder in the same partition you install it to), and has some sources related issues related to the gpg keys for some repos not being setup by default, etc.

Typically, you'll see multiple betas followed by multiple release candidates before a new Mepis release goes to final status.   That's a once every 2 year type process (since Debian only releases a new stable release approx. every 2 years; unlike some of the other distros around with much shorter release cycles; and Mepis follows Debian Stable).

So, you'll usually see a number of issues with an early Mepis beta based on a brand new Debian version.

I have several SUSE 11 or 12 systems, can't remember which, but have not examined the UI closely to see if it is KDE Plasma.

You can download a KDE specific .iso for OpenSUSE 12.3.   The developers of OpenSUSE are one of the biggest contributors to KDE, and newer OpenSUSE releases using KDE tend to be a bit more "polished" than many other distros.

But, on the downside (similar to using a "vanilla" Debian install), you have to do some work yourself to get things like extra repos enabled for any proprietary software and drivers.

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Jim Cockfield
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I'll probably install it anyway...
In reply to Jim Cockfield, May 14, 2013

Personally, I'll probably install the first beta anyway, as I've been doing that kind of thing for a long time, since Mepis is the OS I use on a day to day basis; and that way (using a new beta), I can help out with reporting any of any issues so that the quality will improve before the final release.

After you get past the installer related issues and sources related issues with gpg keys for software repos not enabled by default (debian multimedia, etc.) in the first beta, it's still going to be using a Debian Stable base "under the covers", so stability should be excellent.

IOW, I've been using Mepis almost full time since the 3.x releases; and I'm accustomed to the "quirks" you need to work through with the early beta releases (and this is the first Mepis beta using the new Debian 7.0/Wheezy stable base).

Using an early beta is not for everyone, as there are going to be some bugs that need to be fixed.  Again, as mentioned in my last post, you'll usually see multiple betas and release candidates with a new Mepis release based on a brand new Debian version before it goes to "gold" (stable/final status), as the Warren (the founder and developer of Mepis) has limited resources for testing and the betas and RCs are needed to get user feedback to help find and correct any issues before a new Mepis release goes to stable status.

So, because Mepis has a lot of things included that you don't get with a "vanilla" Debian install (custom Mepis installer and extra utilities for system/user management, newer builds of some software than are in the Debian default base, newer linux kernel version with extra drivers supporting more hardware, etc., while still maintaining full compatibility with the Debian Stable Software repositories), you will usually have some issues in the early betas that will need to be resolved during the development cycle (and the first Mepis beta based on the new Debian/Wheezy 7.0 version is no exception).

Jim Cockfield wrote:

CAcreeks wrote:

Thanks Jim, I will check it out when I have some spare time (might not be until a later Beta).

That may be a good idea (wait until a later beta), depending on your patience level and understanding on linux internals to compensate for any bugs in an earlier beta.

Again, this is the first Mepis beta based on Debian 7.0/Wheezy (just released on May 4th), and the first Mepis beta is going to be a bit buggy, since there is a lot of things in Mepis that are not pure Debian (installers, extra repositories for other software outside of Debian, extra utilities for user management, system management,  and more).

For example, the Mepis installer is a custom installer and I'm hearing that the first beta release has problems if you try to create a separate home partition (so you'll need to use a home folder in the same partition you install it to), and has some sources related issues related to the gpg keys for some repos not being setup by default, etc.

Typically, you'll see multiple betas followed by multiple release candidates before a new Mepis release goes to final status.   That's a once every 2 year type process (since Debian only releases a new stable release approx. every 2 years; unlike some of the other distros around with much shorter release cycles; and Mepis follows Debian Stable).

So, you'll usually see a number of issues with an early Mepis beta based on a brand new Debian version.

I have several SUSE 11 or 12 systems, can't remember which, but have not examined the UI closely to see if it is KDE Plasma.

You can download a KDE specific .iso for OpenSUSE 12.3.   The developers of OpenSUSE are one of the biggest contributors to KDE, and newer OpenSUSE releases using KDE tend to be a bit more "polished" than many other distros.

But, on the downside (similar to using a "vanilla" Debian install), you have to do some work yourself to get things like extra repos enabled for any proprietary software and drivers.

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greenmartini
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Re: Back at 0
In reply to MikeFromMesa, May 14, 2013

MikeFromMesa wrote:

malch wrote:

"Microsoft is preparing to reverse course over key elements of its Windows 8 operating system, marking one of the most prominent admissions of failure for a new mass-market consumer product since Coca-Cola’s New Coke fiasco nearly 30 years ago."

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/330c8b8e-b66b-11e2-93ba-00144feabdc0.html

Well, I for one find it both interesting and encouraging that Microsoft is listening enough to admit the mistake and correct it. I didn't think Microsoft had it in it to do that.

+1 for Microsoft for fixing the issue. -1 for having it to begin with. Leaves it at 0 again.

I don't think they are pubically saying they were wrong but internally I think they have admitted to themselves the approach they took with Win 8 didn't work.

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theswede
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Re: problems just like Vista ?
In reply to A Owens, May 14, 2013

I agree with that basic sentiment. Yes, its UI choices does not work on a desktop but its memory handling (512gb),

Starting to get close to the league Linux plays in then. My desktop OS can handle 256TB RAM.

startup speed and stability are second to none.

How many years uptime is the current record? Oh, wait.

It feels like a very good product 'under the hood' and at 25 bucks upgrade cost was a total bargain.

I paid 0 bucks for my latest OS upgrade.

Jesper

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greenmartini
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Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to malch, May 14, 2013

If Microsoft had simply offered a "classic" option so users could have a the start menu and also boot directly into the desktop then they would have avoided a lot of problems and all the negative press they got in the lead up to the release of Win 8.

They were stubborn though and tried to force people into it, even with the Win 8 Betas when people found registry hacks to make it go directly into the desktop and/or disable other Metro interface stuff they purposely disabled that in later versions. Likewise during the Betas the rise of third-party applications for the start menu started to pop up like wild fire, that should have been a good indication to them that they were on the wrong path.

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malch
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to digital ed, May 14, 2013

digital ed wrote:

You have a choice and can set up to log in with a normal name. Don't know what the problem is.

Well, my copy insisted on an email address. It refused to accept a normal name and gave me no other choices.

Now, if you say there's an option to use a normal name, I can accept that one exists. However, such options are fairly useless if they cannot be easily found by a user with 40 years of computer experience.

The system gave me no hint that any other option was available -- I'd say it implied otherwise. So I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking for one.

In any event, it's done now so if one of you geniuses would care to explain to this moron in nice easy steps, how to change my user name from "foobar@live.com" to "anonymouse" I'd be very grateful. It's pretty easy, right?

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digital ed
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to malch, May 14, 2013

malch wrote:

digital ed wrote:

You have a choice and can set up to log in with a normal name. Don't know what the problem is.

Well, my copy insisted on an email address. It refused to accept a normal name and gave me no other choices.

Now, if you say there's an option to use a normal name, I can accept that one exists. However, such options are fairly useless if they cannot be easily found by a user with 40 years of computer experience.

The system gave me no hint that any other option was available -- I'd say it implied otherwise. So I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking for one.

In any event, it's done now so if one of you geniuses would care to explain to this moron in nice easy steps, how to change my user name from "foobar@live.com" to "anonymouse" I'd be very grateful. It's pretty easy, right?

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

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malch
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to digital ed, May 14, 2013

digital ed wrote:

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

Okay. These were definitely not presented options during first-time setup.

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malch
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to malch, May 14, 2013

malch wrote:

digital ed wrote:

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

Okay thanks. These were definitely not presented options during first-time setup.

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skyglider
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to digital ed, May 14, 2013

digital ed wrote:

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

For folks who might activate Win8 for the first time:

When I activated Win8 on my laptop, I used my MS hotmail account and it forced me to use an eight character (or more) password that had to contain a numeric.  Been that way ever since and I haven't found a way around it.  It appears to link Win8 to my hotmail account. .... I don't know what would happen if my hotmail account went kaput somehow.

When I activated Win8 on a friend's new Dell tower, I selected Local Account and was able to use any password I wanted with any character length, with no apparent link to MS.

Beware of this gottcha,
Sky

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digital ed
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to malch, May 14, 2013

malch wrote:

digital ed wrote:

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

Okay. These were definitely not presented options during first-time setup.

They were there for me when I did first time setup.

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Jim Cockfield
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Not intutive
In reply to digital ed, May 14, 2013

digital ed wrote:

malch wrote:

digital ed wrote:

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

Okay. These were definitely not presented options during first-time setup.

They were there for me when I did first time setup.

Logging in, setting up accounts, and many others things that first time users of Win 8 encounter are just not intuitive.

I thought this video that I watched for the first time recently was "right on", as it closes mirrors my first time figuring out how to even login to Win 8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxmIsv88xO4

Perhaps MS changed it later (versus how it worked with the "Previews" that I tested), as I understand that simply pressing a key will get you to a login screen now.

But, I suspect that many users are still going to struggle trying to use their mouse to figure out what to click on to get to a login screen (not realizing that you need to scroll up from the bottom to get to the login part), and I didn't try to press anything on my keyboard when trying it (as that's just unintuitive compared to how you'd expect a modern OS to work).

Intuitive?  You've got to be joking.

When you see users that have decades of computer experience with a wide variety of operating systems having problems with basic issues trying to setup, login to, and use Win 8; that's a sign that Microsoft needs to "go back to the drawing board".

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digital ed
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Re: Not intutive
In reply to Jim Cockfield, May 14, 2013

Jim Cockfield wrote:

digital ed wrote:

malch wrote:

digital ed wrote:

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

Okay. These were definitely not presented options during first-time setup.

They were there for me when I did first time setup.

Logging in, setting up accounts, and many others things that first time users of Win 8 encounter are just not intuitive.

I thought this video that I watched for the first time recently was "right on", as it closes mirrors my first time figuring out how to even login to Win 8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxmIsv88xO4

Perhaps MS changed it later (versus how it worked with the "Previews" that I tested), as I understand that simply pressing a key will get you to a login screen now.

But, I suspect that many users are still going to struggle trying to use their mouse to figure out what to click on to get to a login screen (not realizing that you need to scroll up from the bottom to get to the login part), and I didn't try to press anything on my keyboard when trying it (as that's just unintuitive compared to how you'd expect a modern OS to work).

Intuitive?  You've got to be joking.

When you see users that have decades of computer experience with a wide variety of operating systems having problems with basic issues trying to setup, login to, and use Win 8; that's a sign that Microsoft needs to "go back to the drawing board".

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JimC
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I just do not get all this crying that the Win 8 GUI is not intuitive. Years ago when I started using the first Windows OS/GUI nothing was intuitive. We all learned quickly. When Apple came out with their first computer and OS, it was not intuitive, but we learned. By the way, I am a PC user and fumble around when today I have to use an Apple with their new GUIs. Very little intuitive for me in the Apple GUI. Same for Linux and I have built from MB up several Linux machines. I am not even going to mention Android tablets using ICS.

W/R to user name, what is not intuitive about plain English on the page? Unfortunately it takes a little personal thinking.

W/R to logon, it took me about 1 minute to figure out how to get to the logon. I just pushed the space bar.

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dradam
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to digital ed, May 14, 2013

digital ed wrote:

malch wrote:

digital ed wrote:

You have a choice and can set up to log in with a normal name. Don't know what the problem is.

Well, my copy insisted on an email address. It refused to accept a normal name and gave me no other choices.

Now, if you say there's an option to use a normal name, I can accept that one exists. However, such options are fairly useless if they cannot be easily found by a user with 40 years of computer experience.

The system gave me no hint that any other option was available -- I'd say it implied otherwise. So I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking for one.

In any event, it's done now so if one of you geniuses would care to explain to this moron in nice easy steps, how to change my user name from "foobar@live.com" to "anonymouse" I'd be very grateful. It's pretty easy, right?

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

Oh, stop it you.

Clearly 40 years of computer experience has not prepared him for such complex tasks.  You should count yourself lucky that you were able to stumble through.

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dradam
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to malch, May 14, 2013

malch wrote:

digital ed wrote:

When creating an account choose "Sign in without a Microsoft account." On next screen choose "Local account." On next screen fill in name, password and password hint. That is all there is to it.

Okay. These were definitely not presented options during first-time setup.

I sometimes think you folks must be using an entirely different operating system than I am with some of your complaints.  This option was there for me when I first set up Windows 8 and, if I recall correctly, it was also there in the consumer preview.

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malch
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to dradam, May 14, 2013

dradam wrote:

I sometimes think you folks must be using an entirely different operating system than I am with some of your complaints.  This option was there for me when I first set up Windows 8 and, if I recall correctly, it was also there in the consumer preview.

Well, that's actually quite possible, if not likely.

First time setup on a pre-installed OEM version of Windows can be very different from a clean installation of a MS retail product.

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dradam
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to malch, May 14, 2013

malch wrote:

dradam wrote:

I sometimes think you folks must be using an entirely different operating system than I am with some of your complaints.  This option was there for me when I first set up Windows 8 and, if I recall correctly, it was also there in the consumer preview.

Well, that's actually quite possible, if not likely.

First time setup on a pre-installed OEM version of Windows can be very different from a clean installation of a MS retail product.

That'd be one hell of a thing for the OEMs to change on you.

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malch
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to dradam, May 14, 2013

dradam wrote:

That'd be one hell of a thing for the OEMs to change on you.

Well, it's a one time process so I can't absolutely confirm. But a simplified setup wizard is typically what OEM's do.

Maybe the option was there. Again, I can't confirm but I really didn't want to use my email address. I went to the trouble of creating a brand new Live address which was something of a PITA. Do you really think I would have jumped through all those hoops if the local username option was staring me in the face?

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MikeFromMesa
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Re: Back at 0
In reply to greenmartini, May 14, 2013

greenmartini wrote:

I don't think they are pubically saying they were wrong but internally I think they have admitted to themselves the approach they took with Win 8 didn't work.

Yeah. You have got to wonder about job security for the guy(s) and gal(s) who made the decision to force desktop and laptop people into a touch-screen environment. I have it on my laptop and will definitely install an update that boots me back into the desktop and gives me back my start button.

"Progress", if that is what this is, is not always a positive thing ...

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dradam
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Re: You're making my point
In reply to malch, May 15, 2013

malch wrote:

dradam wrote:

That'd be one hell of a thing for the OEMs to change on you.

Well, it's a one time process so I can't absolutely confirm. But a simplified setup wizard is typically what OEM's do.

Maybe the option was there. Again, I can't confirm but I really didn't want to use my email address. I went to the trouble of creating a brand new Live address which was something of a PITA. Do you really think I would have jumped through all those hoops if the local username option was staring me in the face?

To be honest, yes, I do.

The setup wizard is already mind numbingly simple and I honestly can't imagine an OEM "simplifying" it more by removing basic options (and, I honestly can't imagine that Microsoft would even allow them to do this).

For most every complaint about Windows 8 UI operation I see around here there is usually a very simple, straight forward solution (usually 2 or 3 of them) yet people seem completely unwilling to spend even minimal effort looking for or trying them.  I don't know if this is from some gut reaction to the new that makes peoples brains just shut down, if people actually WANT it to be harder just so they can have more ammo to backup their hatred of Windows 8, or if I am severely over estimating peoples computer abilities.

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