Windows 8 shocker

Started May 7, 2013 | Discussions
lemon_juice
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Re: 'Emotional' my $%^&
In reply to digital ed, May 10, 2013

digital ed wrote:

You are obviously unfamiliar with Surface Pro whose OS is Win 8 Pro. Can run exactly like a Win 7 Ultimate when Classic Shell installed. I find no limitations in operation compared to Win 7. See my previous post.

Classic Shell and all other add-on should be out of the question in discussions about Windows 8, because we are discussing Windows not some 3rd party software. Anyone can make any kind of software that will transform the UI of an OS to something completely different and the possibilities are endless. It's great to know such tools exist but they are not part of the OS so they are irrelevant here.

By the way, your post does sound emotional.

You can't expect anyone to avoid being emotional because a preference naturally triggers an emotional response. There's no such thing as an objectve assessment of Windows 8. Therefore, emotional responses are really what matter and what affect the sales of the OS.

BTW, I think Scott provided some good examples of how the new UI hinders efficient workflow.

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Michal.

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Re: If true it's a good step, but Microsoft has other UI problems
In reply to theswede, May 10, 2013

theswede wrote:

Try sliding from the top down without a touch screen and see how intuitive and easy it is compared to clicking on a screen button.

I don't use metro applications and I can still use Windows 8, running applications and then closing them by clicking on a button. Isn't that what makes Windows 8 a hybrid OS? Obviously you haven't used Windows 8 or, you knew there is a desktop there and all desktop applications are run in the desktop environment.

Aren't there in any OS designed for any interface (touchscreen or desktop). What make you think because there is a gesture that can't be seen, then the OS must be designed for touch screen. By that logic, all OS are designed for  touch screne including all previous windows.

No visual cues for where actions can be taken in the UI. That's a heavy cognitive load to push onto a user. The interface does not help you by being evident, it requires you to rote memorize corners and motions which have no real world analogs and which are non-obvious.

In every operating system whether designed for touch screen or desktop there are certain UI aspects for which there is no visual clue. In all previous versions of windows, in OS XX, iOS, Linux, Android there are invisible keyboard shortcuts and mouse gestures. Users need to be educated about how things work. Your criticism of MS on introducing new UI without giving visual cue or educating people about them might be valid or invalid; but that was not the point of discussion: Windows 8 doesn't become a touch screen OS, because it contains new invisibles gestures. Users have had years of usage of the previous Windows so they have learned all the visual cues from each other. This doesn't make the previous windows any better just because we have been familiar with them with them. And I bet you, there are still many UI aspects of the previous windows, many long time windows users still don't know (including me).

Click on the start button to get a list of the programs installed on their computer.

Again, obviously you have not used Widnows 8 much since whenever you install a new program, you have the option to have a shortcut in the start menu. Once you choose the option, you will automatically have the application button in the default metro page. Otherwise, you right click on the metro screen to bring up all installed applications and choose which one to run or add the the default metro screen. Don't tell me there must be a visual cue for all this. There was no visual cue for any sort of right click in previous windows in any sense and users only learned them from each other or, they just discovered it by themselves.

Which makes it bad for both. There is a reason Apple did not put OSX on the iPad nor iOS on their Macbooks.

What makes you think it makes it bad for both.? There are millions of content win8 users. Open your mind and stop the prejudiced opinion that windows 8 does not work for the desktop. Start using it with positive attitude and your negative feelings about it will gradually change.

Your opinion is noted, as is the observation that it's in the minority.

Being in the minority is something I am not sure about: maybe on some online forums but otherwise, who knows (and even if true, it will be temporary for now until windows 8 replaces all previous windows). But in any case, it doesn't change the fact that Windows 8 can be just as fine as previous windows for everybody not just for me and there are many people out there who are already happily using the Windows 8.

"Some". Understatement of the year.

Exaggeration of the year.

You have not had to navigate the start menu if you knew what you wanted to start in previous versions of Windows. However, in Windows 8 you are barred from examining what software is installed and be reminded of the name of it; you have to know what it's called or have it pinned in your Metro interface in order to find it. If you sit down at a colleague's computer you have no way of quickly discerning what software is installed on it.

Already answered above. Right click on the metro page and you can bring up and see all installed applications. Don't tell me there is no viual cue to right clicking because you don't know about clicking and right clicking, you couldn't use any previous windows either.

MS will fail because computers become commodities. They've fought this tooth and nail, and Windows 8 is their latest attempt, but they'll lose that battle. Not yet, but they will.

Prophecy of the year. I don't care if MS will win or fail but, I find your prohetic prediction quite amusing.

The problem isn't that Microsoft are late to the game. The problem is that Microsoft are not playing the same game. They're too big for that playfield. What Microsoft needs is for people to keep upgrading computers (and thus OS'es) but that cycle is stagnating and will come very close to a stop.

Lesson taught: big things will fail, don't question that and don't think Windows 8 platform may be just as good as other platforms and IMO, if it fails it is more likely for the reason I mentioned not for your reasoning.

Corporations are not interested in upgrading because if what they have works, upgrading is a pure cost with zero benefit.

An overly generalized statement. By your logic, corporations should have never even switched to computers because it was pure costs. Does it make sense? They upgrade if they come to believe the benefit is worth the cost and at some point they may belive a fast modern touch screen interface or something else (whatever it is) is more productive than the ancient xp's they have.

Consumers upgrade only when their old machine no longer satisfies them, and five year old computers today are so good that people no longer have to upgrade - plus, a big chunk of the upgrade funds instead go to smartphones and tablets.

Again nobody can be certain which platform will eventually win. The dynamics of the market and psychology of the consumers are not entirely predictable and at any time, one of the available products may prove to be more popular because of a unique intriguing feature or, a new product from a new company may become increasingly popular. We can guess and we can become smarter and more reasonable in our guesses, we can never be certain about the future.

This leaves Microsoft without their big cash cow - OS and Office upgrade cycles. And if that happens, Steves head rolls. So he tries anything, including Windows 8, to keep that from happening. Unfortunately neither Microsoft nor anyone else knows how to keep users upgrading PC's. Apple solved it by creating a new market segment. Others solve it by selling services. Microsoft tries everything they can think of, good or bad. But the days of carving gold from PC upgrades are coming to a close.

Jesper

See above.

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Jim Cockfield
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be careful, Win 8 "fast boot" may cause file system issues...
In reply to Scott Eaton, May 10, 2013

Scott Eaton wrote:

...Win8 starts faster from hibernation....that's it's only benefit over Win7...which makes it more efficient for when I have to plug my laptop into a data center at a remote site and be up and going quickly.

Be careful, as if you're using a computer in a multi-boot config with other Operating Systems, you may find using the new "Fast Boot" features in Win 8 could "bite you" and cause file system corruption.

Basically, what Microsoft did to improve boot and shutdown times with Windows 8 is make use of something that's similar to Hibernate.   Basically, it's keeping a snapshot of part of your memory on disk, the reloading it into memory when you start your machine again.

So, it's not a "real" shutdown and startup from scratch like you'd have with Windows 7.

From what I'm reading about it, that can cause issues if you have another Operating System using the same NTFS partitions, since the memory snapshot Windows has on disk that it's reloading isn't aware of changes that have been made the file system since you shut down Windows last.

So, it's probably a good idea to disable that new "fast boot" feature, so that the system really performs a "clean" shutdown and restart each time, versus trying to reload a memory snapshot from disk, especially if you're trying to user another OS with the same file system.

If you're just using Linux in a VM under Win 8, that's probably not a big deal, as long as the VM is shut down first, even if you have shared folders setup on the same NTFS partitions Win8 is using.

But, if you leave fast boot enabled in Win 8 and use another OS with the same partitions later (even if you're using that OS from a Live CD/DVD, USB Stick, etc.), you could end up with file system corruption because Win 8 may not have full unmounted the NTFS partitions, flushed all activity to disk, etc. that other OS is trying to make use of, and/or assumes that data in cache that it's reloading upon a restart has not changed in any way (or that's my understanding of the potential problems based on articles I've seen about it).

Here's an article with instructions on how to disable that "feature" (so that Windows 8 performs a true shutdown and restart versus trying to reload a memory snapshot with some of the data you were using.  Basically, you can just uncheck the box for it.

http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/what-is-fast-startup-windows-8-disable-it/

That will mean it takes longer to boot again after a shutdown.

But, I'd rather have a "clean" shutdown and startup each time than risk problems because of the way it's trying to keep a file with a snapshot of some of what was running in memory.

Again, apparently using Fast Boot can potentially cause file system corruption issues if you use another OS accessing same partitions after a Win 8 "shutdown" with the new "fast boot" features enabled (as they are by default), since Windows 8 won't be aware of changes made to the file system by another OS.

So, I'd make darn sure to disable it in a dual boot config of any kind (and personally, I'd disable it anyway, even if Windows 8 is the only OS using the system).

Here's yet another article discussing that feature, that's more specific to using Linux in a dual boot config.

http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Linux-and-Windows-8-Fast-Startup-puts-data-at-risk-1780640.html?page=2

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digital ed
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Re: 'Emotional' my $%^&
In reply to lemon_juice, May 10, 2013

lemon_juice wrote:

You can't expect anyone to avoid being emotional because a preference naturally triggers an emotional response. There's no such thing as an objectve assessment of Windows 8. Therefore, emotional responses are really what matter and what affect the sales of the OS.

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Michal.

I cannot accept your statement that there is no thing as an objective assessment of Windows 8. This leaves out the adults on this forum. Emotional responses are from those lacking mature judgement. Clear, concise and accurate statements will always win the debate in the end. Arm waving is for children and politicians.

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digital ed
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Re: be careful, Win 8 "fast boot" may cause file system issues...
In reply to Jim Cockfield, May 10, 2013

Jim Cockfield wrote:

Scott Eaton wrote:

...Win8 starts faster from hibernation....that's it's only benefit over Win7...which makes it more efficient for when I have to plug my laptop into a data center at a remote site and be up and going quickly.

Be careful, as if you're using a computer in a multi-boot config with other Operating Systems, you may find using the new "Fast Boot" features in Win 8 could "bite you" and cause file system corruption.

Basically, what Microsoft did to improve boot and shutdown times with Windows 8 is make use of something that's similar to Hibernate.   Basically, it's keeping a snapshot of part of your memory on disk, the reloading it into memory when you start your machine again.

So, it's not a "real" shutdown and startup from scratch like you'd have with Windows 7.

That can cause issues if you have another Operating System using the same NTFS partitions, since the memory snapshot Windows has on disk that it's reloading isn't aware of changes that have been made the file system since you shut down Windows last.

So, it's a good idea to disable that new "fast boot" feature, so that the system really performs a "clean" shutdown and restart each time, versus trying to reload a memory snapshot from disk, especially if you're trying to user another OS with the same file system.

If you're just using Linux in a VM under Win 8, that's probably not a big deal, as long as the VM is shut down first, even if you have shared folders setup on the same NTFS partitions Win8 is using.

But, if you leave fast boot enabled in Win 8 and use another OS with the same partitions later (even if you're using that OS from a Live CD/DVD, USB Stick, etc.), you could end up with file system corruption because Win 8 may not have full unmounted the NTFS partitions, flushed all activity to disk, etc. that other OS is trying to make use of, and/or assumes that data in cache that it's reloading upon a restart has not changed in any way.

Here's an article with instructions on how to disable that "feature" (so that Windows 8 performs a true shutdown and restart versus trying to reload a memory snapshot with some of the data you were using.  Basically, you can just uncheck the box for it.

http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/what-is-fast-startup-windows-8-disable-it/

That will mean it takes longer to boot again after a shutdown.

But, I'd rather have a "clean" shutdown and startup each time than risk problems because of the way it's trying to keep a file with a snapshot of some of what was running in memory.

Again, that can cause issues with another OS using the same partitions after a Win 8 "shutdown" if you use using the new fast boot features (since Windows won't be aware of changes made to the file system by another OS with Fast Boot enabled).

So, I'd make darn sure to disable it in a dual boot config of any kind (and personally, I'd disable it anyway, even if Windows 8 is the only OS using the system).

Here's yet another article discussing that feature, that's more specific to using Linux in a dual boot config.

http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Linux-and-Windows-8-Fast-Startup-puts-data-at-risk-1780640.html?page=2

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JimC
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Interesting information Jim. Did not know this even though I have a dual boot Win 7 Ultimate with Win 8 Pro PC.

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Jim Cockfield
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boot loader setup...
In reply to digital ed, May 10, 2013

digital ed wrote:

Interesting information Jim. Did not know this even though I have a dual boot Win 7 Ultimate with Win 8 Pro PC.

It probably depends on the boot loader you're using how much of a potential problem you may have in a Win 7/Win 8 dual boot setup.

The last article I referenced goes into how that works in a bit more detail:

http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Linux-and-Windows-8-Fast-Startup-puts-data-at-risk-1780640.html?page=2

Apparently, if you use Win 8's boot loader for starting Win 7, it may be "smart enough" to fully unmount the file systems it's using before booting into another Operating System (e.g., Win 7).

But, personally, I wouldn't risk leaving Win 8's fast boot features turned on in a mult-boot config of any kind.

Frankly, I wouldn't risk using that feature if Windows 8 was the only Operating System being used either.  It's just not worth the risk from my perspective, as I'd rather have everything fully unmounted each time, and have all hardware fully reinitialized at each startup.

So, personally, I'd just "play it safe" by turning off that feature, so I'd make sure the file systems are fully unmounted and I'd get a "real" (clean) shutdown and startup instead.

Even without the potential file system corruption issues, Windows is not exactly a "poster child" for how it handles making sure all hardware is still working and properly initialized after using something like sleep or hibernate, and it sounds like the new Fast Boot feature is just too similar for comfort.

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digital ed
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Re: boot loader setup...
In reply to Jim Cockfield, May 10, 2013

Jim Cockfield wrote:

digital ed wrote:

http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Linux-and-Windows-8-Fast-Startup-puts-data-at-risk-1780640.html?page=2

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JimC
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Interesting information Jim. Did not know this even though I have a dual boot Win 7 Ultimate with Win 8 Pro PC.

It probably depends on the boot loader you're using how much of a potential problem you may have in a Win 7/Win 8 dual boot setup.

The last article I referenced goes into how that works in a bit more detail:

http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Linux-and-Windows-8-Fast-Startup-puts-data-at-risk-1780640.html?page=2

Apparently, if you use Win 8's boot loader for starting Win 7, it may be "smart enough" to fully unmount the file systems it's using before booting into another Operating System (e.g., Win 7).

But, personally, I wouldn't risk leaving Win 8's fast boot features turned on in a mult-boot config of any kind.

Frankly, I wouldn't risk using that feature if Windows 8 was the only Operating System being used either.  It's just not worth the risk from my perspective, as I'd rather have everything fully unmounted each time, and have all hardware fully reinitialized at each startup.

So, personally, I'd just "play it safe" by turning off that feature, so I'd make sure the file systems are fully unmounted and I'd get a "real" (clean) shutdown and startup instead.

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JimC
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I loaded Win 8 Pro as a virtual disk on a separate disk from the Win 7 Ultimate main disk. At each startup I get the windows (I think) OS choice menu. In any case I have not selected the fast boot feature. So far (a few months) I have not seen any evidence of corruption using either OS.

With respect to speed, my Surface Pro with Win 8 Pro boots to the sign on screen within 5 seconds. Advantage of using an SSD.

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Jim Cockfield
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It's on by default
In reply to digital ed, May 10, 2013

digital ed wrote:

I loaded Win 8 Pro as a virtual disk on a separate disk from the Win 7 Ultimate main disk. At each startup I get the windows (I think) OS choice menu. In any case I have not selected the fast boot feature. So far (a few months) I have not seen any evidence of corruption using either OS.

I'm not sure what you mean by using Win 8 Pro on a virtual disk.  Is it running in a hypervisor of some type, or something like Microsoft VirtualPC, VirtualBox, VMWare Player, etc.)?

Even if it is, and it's installed to virtual versus physical disk (for example installed to a VDI, VMDK, VHD, etc. that's a virtual disk mounted on top of another file system),  if it still has access to the same physical partitions that your other Windows installs have access to (because you setup shared access to those partitions, in addition to the virtual disk it's installed on), you could be putting your data at risk.

The fast boot features in Win 8 are turned on by default. It's not something you enable, as it's already that way by default.  Instead, you have to specifically disable that feature (as shown in the articles I linked to in my previous posts).

So, if you shut down Windows 8 using it's default settings, then use another OS (Win 7, Linux, etc.) to access any partitions that Win 8 had access to, then you're risking file system corruption (because the next time you start Win 8 again, it won't be aware that anything on the disks/partitions it's accessing has changed since you used it last, unless you're using Win 8's bootloader to start the other Operating Systems).

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digital ed
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Re: It's on by default
In reply to Jim Cockfield, May 10, 2013

Jim Cockfield wrote:

digital ed wrote:

I loaded Win 8 Pro as a virtual disk on a separate disk from the Win 7 Ultimate main disk. At each startup I get the windows (I think) OS choice menu. In any case I have not selected the fast boot feature. So far (a few months) I have not seen any evidence of corruption using either OS.

I'm not sure what you mean by using Win 8 Pro on a virtual disk.  Is it running in a hypervisor of some type, or something like Microsoft VirtualPC, VirtualBox, VMWare Player, etc.)?

Even if it is, and it's installed to virtual versus physical disk (for example installed to a VDI, VMDK, VHD, etc. that's a virtual disk mounted on top of another file system),  if it still has access to the same physical partitions that your other Windows installs have access to (because you setup shared access to those partitions, in addition to the virtual disk it's installed on), you could be putting your data at risk.

The fast boot features in Win 8 are turned on by default. It's not something you enable, as it's already that way by default.  Instead, you have to specifically disable that feature (as shown in the articles I linked to in my previous posts).

So, if you shut down Windows 8 using it's default settings, then use another OS (Win 7, Linux, etc.) to access any partitions that Win 8 had access to, then you're risking file system corruption (because the next time you start Win 8 again, it won't be aware that anything on the disks/partitions it's accessing has changed since you used it last, unless you're using Win 8's bootloader to start the other Operating Systems).

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JimC
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I loaded Win 8 using the Windows virtual disk capability, not a separate loader.

I am going to check the Win 8 Pro so see if the fast boot is enabled.

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Jim Cockfield
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Re: It's on by default
In reply to digital ed, May 10, 2013

digital ed wrote:

I loaded Win 8 using the Windows virtual disk capability, not a separate loader.

But, what boot loader are you using to start it?

If you are using the Win 7 bootloader to start a copy of Win 8 installed to a VHD, then you may have potential corruption issues, since Win 8 may not fully unmount the file systems it has access to upon shutdown with fast boot enabled (as it's my understanding you need to use the Win 8 boot loader to control loading of other Operating Systems to insure Win 8 fully unmounts any file systems it uses before another OS is started).

So, when you run Win 7 and change anything in those file systems, then start Win 8 again, it may assume that nothing about the file systems it was using has changed since Win 8 was used last (assuming that anything in cache that was reloaded in a file it saves to disk for that purpose was still unchanged, any data that wasn't flushed yet could still be safely flushed to the same locations on those disks, etc.).

If it's totally isolated in a true Virtual Machine with no shared partitions (where it only has access to the VHD you installed it to), that's one thing.

But, if it's just installed to a VHD and being started by another boot loader, and still has access to the same partitions other operating systems have access to (for example, the partitions being used by your Win 7 install), I think you're just asking for trouble by leaving Win 8 fast boot enabled.

Personally, I'd make sure to disable fast boot in a multi-boot config of any kind.

Frankly, I'd disable it anyway, even if Win 8 was the only OS I was using on a PC, just to be safe and make sure the file systems are always fully unmounted upon shutdown, and so that I'd get a clean startup each time with full reinitialization of all hardware resources being used by the OS.

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lemon_juice
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Re: 'Emotional' my $%^&
In reply to digital ed, May 10, 2013

digital ed wrote:

lemon_juice wrote:

You can't expect anyone to avoid being emotional because a preference naturally triggers an emotional response. There's no such thing as an objectve assessment of Windows 8. Therefore, emotional responses are really what matter and what affect the sales of the OS.

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Michal.

I cannot accept your statement that there is no thing as an objective assessment of Windows 8. This leaves out the adults on this forum. Emotional responses are from those lacking mature judgement. Clear, concise and accurate statements will always win the debate in the end. Arm waving is for children and politicians.

Do you also believe that TV presents objective facts just because an objective camera recorded an event? If you say yes then I can understand where you are coming from. Objective assessment is something that we would all like to exist but unfortunately the reality is different because everyone is different. If you say that objective assessment of anything is possible you must be also saying that everyone is the same, which of course is far from the truth. And who sets the standards of what should be evaluated in an OS, how each feature is supposed to work, what UI is the best? Get several groups of adult, educated people to assess as scientifically as possible an OS, each group coming from a different country and you will get different reviews. Are you trying to tell us there is only one truth?

And like it or not, emotions are part of our lives and it has nothing to do with being mature or not. Even your assessments are at least partly emotional even if you are not aware of it - unless you are a robot, not a human.

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Michal.

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digital ed
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Re: 'Emotional' my $%^&
In reply to lemon_juice, May 10, 2013

lemon_juice wrote:

digital ed wrote:

lemon_juice wrote:

You can't expect anyone to avoid being emotional because a preference naturally triggers an emotional response. There's no such thing as an objectve assessment of Windows 8. Therefore, emotional responses are really what matter and what affect the sales of the OS.

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Michal.

I cannot accept your statement that there is no thing as an objective assessment of Windows 8. This leaves out the adults on this forum. Emotional responses are from those lacking mature judgement. Clear, concise and accurate statements will always win the debate in the end. Arm waving is for children and politicians.

Do you also believe that TV presents objective facts just because an objective camera recorded an event? If you say yes then I can understand where you are coming from. Objective assessment is something that we would all like to exist but unfortunately the reality is different because everyone is different. If you say that objective assessment of anything is possible you must be also saying that everyone is the same, which of course is far from the truth. And who sets the standards of what should be evaluated in an OS, how each feature is supposed to work, what UI is the best? Get several groups of adult, educated people to assess as scientifically as possible an OS, each group coming from a different country and you will get different reviews. Are you trying to tell us there is only one truth?

And like it or not, emotions are part of our lives and it has nothing to do with being mature or not. Even your assessments are at least partly emotional even if you are not aware of it - unless you are a robot, not a human.

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Michal.

Suggest you stay emotional and I will remain objective and leave it at that.

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malch
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Re: If true it's a good step, but Microsoft has other UI problems
In reply to raminolta, May 10, 2013

raminolta wrote:

There are millions of content win8 users. Open your mind and stop the prejudiced opinion that windows 8 does not work for the desktop. Start using it with positive attitude and your negative feelings about it will gradually change.

Seriously?

Further comment will likely get me into trouble with the mods.

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1w12q312qw1
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Windows8 Commercials in Asia
In reply to malch, May 10, 2013

malch wrote:

raminolta wrote:

There are millions of content win8 users. Open your mind and stop the prejudiced opinion that windows 8 does not work for the desktop. Start using it with positive attitude and your negative feelings about it will gradually change.

Seriously?

Further comment will likely get me into trouble with the mods.

+1

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Windows-8-Asia-Commercials-Watermelon-Makeup,22525.html

WOW, these ads will really make the Asian market gobble up Windows8 (although the "piano" ad is pretty cool). Kind of a strange way of promoting  the "touch" feature, wish they'd put their creative energies and money into their OS development.

Stan

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digital ed
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Re: Windows8 Commercials in Asia
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, May 11, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

WOW, these ads will really make the Asian market gobble up Windows8 (although the "piano" ad is pretty cool). Kind of a strange way of promoting  the "touch" feature, wish they'd put their creative energies and money into their OS development.

Stan

Don't confuse the OS with the GUI. The GUI is the clothes on the person. The OS is the basic character of the person. Many on this thread are forgetting the difference.

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Jim Cockfield
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First impressons, the UI matters
In reply to digital ed, May 11, 2013

digital ed wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

WOW, these ads will really make the Asian market gobble up Windows8 (although the "piano" ad is pretty cool). Kind of a strange way of promoting  the "touch" feature, wish they'd put their creative energies and money into their OS development.

Stan

Don't confuse the OS with the GUI. The GUI is the clothes on the person. The OS is the basic character of the person. Many on this thread are forgetting the difference.

First impressions

I "test drive" new Linux distributions on a regular basis.

Many of them are based on the same underlying Linux Kernels, yet are using a different Desktop, Window Manager, configuration utilities, default "themes", menu launchers, etc.

For example, you can find lots of linux distros that all use Ubuntu as their base.  But, some use the KDE Plasma Desktop (my personal favorite), others use the Xfce Desktop, others use the LXDE Desktop, others use the Ghome 3 Desktop, while the default Ubuntu Desktop is now Unity.

There are a number of others available, too (all running on top of the same Ubuntu base).

Also, even with distributions using the same desktop, you see a dramatic difference in them because of the themes used, fonts, menu launchers, included utilities, software managers, and much more.

IOW, I may discard using one distribution using an Ubuntu base with a KDE Desktop, just because it's theme isn't setup as nicely a different distro.

It's all about First Impressions.

When I test drive a Linux distro that gives me a bad first impression (which may be something as simple as the wallpaper used by default, or the fonts used, or the way the menu launcher is designed, I move on to another distro.

IOW, it's just not worth the hassle to mess around spending a lot of time customizing a badly designed UI from my perspective, as there are just too many other choices around now.

A bad first impression is what I see mentioned a lot about Windows 8.

I certainly had a very first impression when test driving it (and that includes the developer and consumer previews of it), even though I installed a different menu launcher almost immediately.

Sure if you're a "tech savvy" user, you can find utilities that let you tune it more to taste, so that it behaves more like Win 7, and would work in a way that's more familiar to users of previous Windows versions.

But, I suspect that many purchasers of computers with Win 8 installed are just going to let everyone know that it stinks, and either return them to the vendor they purchased them from, or learn to live with it and constantly tell others how bad it is.

Sorry, IMO, Microsoft is alienating a lot of users with the way they handled the Win 8 design.  If they would have simply given users a choice as to how it works during the install (offering them a choice between a traditional UI, or one that's optimized for touch screen devices), then I think Win 8 would have been a "hit".

But because they tried to force users into seeing the new style UI (formerly known as Metro), regardless of the type of display a user has, market share of Win 8  stinks in comparison to the last few Windows releases so far.   Vista was a very "hot seller" if you look it's market share this far after it's product launch when compared to Win 8.  IOW, compared to some of the previous Windows releases, Win 8 is a huge "flop".

You can blame that on other factors.  But, IMO, it's mostly Microsoft's fault for trying to change too much, too soon, despite the type of computer and display the OS is being used with.

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digital ed
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Re: First impressons, the UI matters
In reply to Jim Cockfield, May 11, 2013

Jim Cockfield wrote:

digital ed wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

WOW, these ads will really make the Asian market gobble up Windows8 (although the "piano" ad is pretty cool). Kind of a strange way of promoting  the "touch" feature, wish they'd put their creative energies and money into their OS development.

Stan

Don't confuse the OS with the GUI. The GUI is the clothes on the person. The OS is the basic character of the person. Many on this thread are forgetting the difference.

First impressions

I "test drive" new Linux distributions on a regular basis.

Many of them are based on the same underlying Linux Kernels, yet are using a different Desktop, Window Manager, configuration utilities, default "themes", menu launchers, etc.

For example, you can find lots of linux distros that all use Ubuntu as their base.  But, some use the KDE Plasma Desktop (my personal favorite), others use the Xfce Desktop, others use the LXDE Desktop, others use the Ghome 3 Desktop, while the default Ubuntu Desktop is now Unity.

There are a number of others available, too (all running on top of the same Ubuntu base).

Also, even with distributions using the same desktop, you see a dramatic difference in them because of the themes used, fonts, menu launchers, included utilities, software managers, and much more.

IOW, I may discard using one distribution using an Ubuntu base with a KDE Desktop, just because it's theme isn't setup as nicely a different distro.

It's all about First Impressions.

When I test drive a Linux distro that gives me a bad first impression (which may be something as simple as the wallpaper used by default, or the fonts used, or the way the menu launcher is designed, I move on to another distro.

IOW, it's just not worth the hassle to mess around spending a lot of time customizing a badly designed UI from my perspective, as there are just too many other choices around now.

A bad first impression is what I see mentioned a lot about Windows 8.

I certainly had a very first impression when test driving it (and that includes the developer and consumer previews of it), even though I installed a different menu launcher almost immediately.

Sure if you're a "tech savvy" user, you can find utilities that let you tune it more to taste, so that it behaves more like Win 7, and would work in a way that's more familiar to users of previous Windows versions.

But, I suspect that many purchasers of computers with Win 8 installed are just going to let everyone know that it stinks, and either return them to the vendor they purchased them from, or learn to live with it and constantly tell others how bad it is.

Sorry, IMO, Microsoft is alienating a lot of users with the way they handled the Win 8 design.  If they would have simply given users a choice as to how it works during the install (offering them a choice between a traditional UI, or one that's optimized for touch screen devices), then I think Win 8 would have been a "hit".

But because they tried to force users into seeing the new style UI (formerly known as Metro), regardless of the type of display a user has, market share of Win 8  stinks in comparison to the last few Windows releases so far.   Vista was a very "hot seller" if you look it's market share this far after it's product launch when compared to Win 8.  IOW, compared to some of the previous Windows releases, Win 8 is a huge "flop".

You can blame that on other factors.  But, IMO, it's mostly Microsoft's fault for trying to change too much, too soon, despite the type of computer and display the OS is being used with.

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JimC
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It is possible Blue may be the MS correction. Whether it is too late, I do not know. I will keep using Win 8 for some of my PCs as it is an OS improvement over Win 7.

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Re: First impressons, the UI matters
In reply to Jim Cockfield, May 11, 2013

Jim,

I think your criticism and first impression problem most deserve to be applied to Linux distributions before anything else. Sorry to say this and sincerely, I have always hoped Linux will succeed someday as a viable alternative to Windows. However so far, Linux has not been able to penetrate into the minds of masses except for a small percentage of users who don't mind scratching their heads when a something breaks or doesn't work.

I quit Linux 8 years ago and didn't go back to it until a couple of months ago and I feel things haven't got any better if not worse. Even simple things sometimes are broken and don't work. After trying a couple of distros, I have now settled down on Mint (with KDE) which seems being the best one working out of the box and having the kind of desktop environment I prefer most (KDE). But there have still been problems. Nvidia drivers don't install; the text on the taskbar manager were so low contrast in their background color,  I couldn't read them (this problem exists in Ubuntu and other versions of Mint). I somehow managed to screw the taskbar manager several times and had a hard time  to get it back to normal, etc. Another negative aspect IMO: trying to hide the aspects of a Linux environment that are different from Windows such as terminal and multiple desktops. You see, trying to make it look like a Windows XP/7 has not succeeded in attracting Windows users.

I most rather avoid UI which involve menus in menus in menus which seems some Linux graphical environments are stock too (perhaps imitating Windows as much as possible with a similar 'start button/menu' UI; you wonder why all these unhappy people with windows 8 and its lack of start button didn't switch to Linux then?!).

As per Windows 8 alienating some users, as I mentioned I can't care for less for Windows 8 being successful or not and for all these negative reactions . Why should I care if a product a large corporate has released will succeed or not (I don't work for that corporate)?

Anyway, in a couple of years, all these complaints and unhappy users will be forgotten; new systems and new UI's will have replaced old interfaces including XP and even metro.... I think we individual consumers should be more concerned about other aspects of technology and its market aspects than little changes in the UI: application stores, software subscription/rental scheme replacing the selling scheme, etc. I believe these changes can pose us a real threat: imagine you will never be able to buy a house because all houses are owned by large corporations who are not willing to sell them. They only rent them so that you will always remain a tenant, in a relation of such nature and under the power a landlord can pose upon its tenants. Example: look at the Adobe CC subscription agreement policy: it says Adobe has the right to terminate the subscription contract 'at any time', 'for any reason', 'without prior notice' and consumers have no right to object. Imagine all software companies including MS, and Apple start the same practice: you can no longer buy an OS but only to rent it on a month to month basis with them having the right to cancel the subscription at any time they wish hence shutting down your system when they wish so.

Imagine MS shuts down the computers of all those who criticized Windows 8 so that their voices could not be heard by simply terminating their subscription. Under the above kind of agreement, MS will have the authority to do so. Adobe can also terminate the subscription of those who said something Adobe didn't like. Well, it kind of happened to me once: I was banned and my membership in an Apple forum was suspended simply because I criticized one aspect of the Mac system (I don't remember what it was about but I can probably find it). That was all I did: I didn't insult anybody, I wasn't aggressive, my language wasn't offensive, etc..

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kelpdiver
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Re: Windows8 Commercials in Asia
In reply to digital ed, May 11, 2013

digital ed wrote:

Don't confuse the OS with the GUI. The GUI is the clothes on the person. The OS is the basic character of the person. Many on this thread are forgetting the difference.

Since you can't run Windows without the GUI, there really is no difference.

This is in stark contrast to unix.   While Jim may be picking and rejecting stray linux distributions based on these first GUI impressions, I rarely leave the shell.  Very rarely run X.   It's about the kernel, about the package system, about the memory utilization, and the tools it provides.

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Michael Firstlight
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Re: Windows8 Commercials in Asia
In reply to kelpdiver, May 11, 2013

The real question is, how much does the user experience matter to the target market?  The answer?  It is absolutely a critical success factor.

I know this space having training in user experience. The opinions on this forum don't carry the same weight as the general user or corporate market; most of us here are too technical and are not the target market. Many here understand the difference between the user interface and the OS and know the ways to work around the former in Win8.  Some are simply Win haters and will use any excuse to take pot shots. There is no question that as an OS, Win 8 is better on the traditional non-touch desktop by comparison to Win7 after you take Metro out of the equation. But that matters little to the general marketplace.

MS overreached, and Jim is spot on that first impressions matter hugely and it was too much, too soon for the target market. An analogy is basic web page surfing.  I've studied in great depth end user behavior and metrics as they read a page and leave or stay - and what makes them leave. Although it is not a perfect analogy there are similarities. You only have moments to make an impression and keep the user's attention before they decide to move on.  A bad experience - even momentarily  - and you've lost them , click!  This IS the general user culture and it cannot be understated, glossed over, or dismissed.

I run Win8 on a tablet and on a high end build; I use both user interfaces and I use 3rd party extensions. I also still run Win 7 on another build and multiple OSes in virtual machines, but again, I'm a developer and don't have the luxury to dismiss an OS - that doesn't mean I have to like 'em either.

MS has become an arrogant entity and so have others (Apple included).  Ironically, these were once cultures that were similarly critical of large established entities when they first emerged - and they became worse than those they once targeted. Having been around to witness that reversal as some of you have is a lesson about organizational maturity life cycle we usually only read about on paper.

No, MS won't fail - they just won't succeed to the degree they could have as a company, and continue to flounder in the eyes of investors - and that is the bottom line.

Regards,
Mike

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