Windows 8 shocker

Started May 7, 2013 | Discussions
Sean Nelson
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,920
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to Doug R, May 9, 2013

Doug R wrote:

So you'll be able to go strait to the desktop and have a start button, but the start button will just take you to the metro start page. Is this good enough to save Windows 8?

It'll save Windows 8 on the desktop, or at least stop it from hemorrhaging more sales than it has, because if they fix it correctly then it will restore the familiar look and feel to those people shopping for a desktop PC at retail outlets and prevent desktop users who can't figure it out from returning it.  Yes, those users may be "dumb" but they comprise a large enough portion of the market to have a pretty big impact on it.

But I doubt it will save Windows 8 on mobile devices.   That's not because of the metro interface (which is just fine for a touch screen), but because of the chicken-and-egg problem with Windows 8 mobile apps.   The apps just aren't there, and I'm not talking about the quantity but rather the quality of them.   For example, none of the WiFi-controlled cameras I've seen have Windows 8 apps available - they're all Android / iOS apps.   There's no Facebook app available.   Those kinds of things will lock people out of the Windows 8 market.

The problem is that the app developers are already having to support two completely different mobile platforms, and there's no way they'll expend their precious resources creating apps for such a tiny part of the market.   Without a market, no apps.   Without apps, no market.

Microsoft is going to be around for a long time in the desktop market, but I think they're pretty much doomed as a significant mobile player unless something comes along real soon to upset the apple cart (pun not originally intended).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
1w12q312qw1
Contributing MemberPosts: 732
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to Sean Nelson, May 9, 2013

Sean Nelson wrote:

Doug R wrote:

So you'll be able to go strait to the desktop and have a start button, but the start button will just take you to the metro start page. Is this good enough to save Windows 8?

It'll save Windows 8 on the desktop, or at least stop it from hemorrhaging more sales than it has, because if they fix it correctly then it will restore the familiar look and feel to those people shopping for a desktop PC at retail outlets and prevent desktop users who can't figure it out from returning it.  Yes, those users may be "dumb" but they comprise a large enough portion of the market to have a pretty big impact on it.

But I doubt it will save Windows 8 on mobile devices.   That's not because of the metro interface (which is just fine for a touch screen), but because of the chicken-and-egg problem with Windows 8 mobile apps.   The apps just aren't there, and I'm not talking about the quantity but rather the quality of them.   For example, none of the WiFi-controlled cameras I've seen have Windows 8 apps available - they're all Android / iOS apps.   There's no Facebook app available.   Those kinds of things will lock people out of the Windows 8 market.

The problem is that the app developers are already having to support two completely different mobile platforms, and there's no way they'll expend their precious resources creating apps for such a tiny part of the market.   Without a market, no apps.   Without apps, no market.

Microsoft is going to be around for a long time in the desktop market, but I think they're pretty much doomed as a significant mobile player unless something comes along real soon to upset the apple cart (pun not originally intended).

Sean,

I heard it reported that Bill Gates recently said that iPad users really don't like them because they don't have real keyboards and they all would be much happier with Surface tablets. Is this true? If so, isn't he in a parallel universe? Maybe Balmer's there, too?

Stan

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Scott Eaton
Senior MemberPosts: 1,928
Like?
'Emotional' my $%^&
In reply to raminolta, May 9, 2013

>>>>a reluctance mainly at an emotional level.

Sounds like somebody who doesn't use their computer for real work.

At one time today I had RDP sessions open on Server 2003, Server 2008, Server 2012, my own company laptop running Win8, two sessions of Citrix on 2008, and running Linux Ubuntu in VirtualBox trying to set up Freenix. I was a busy trying to support several remote sites for different clients.

Win8 is still totally annoying on all levels. If you're 12years old and 99% of your day is in Facebook and looking for Justin Bieber updates then Win8 / Metro is your thing. Otherwise any trip back to my laptop involved constant Win-R and other keyboard shortcuts just to do what took a few short clicks in the older GUIs. Win8 also loves to find an excuse to shove you in the Metro Desktop locking you out of what you are doing just to try and get you sign up for more MS junk. Meanwhile the SQL server I'm setting up on 2008 is twiddling it's thumbs waiting for me to figure out the alt-swizzle-stick combo to get out of the Win8 GUI inspired by Douglas Adams.

I don't even bother with trying to navigate Win8's control menus anymore. I just have run commands like ncpa.cpl in the run history because it's faster that way. My start button has become Win-R...that is until Win8 pulls a glitch and it starts opening recycle bin or something with that shortcut. Win8 starts faster from hibernation....that's it's only benefit over Win7...which makes it more efficient for when I have to plug my laptop into a data center at a remote site and be up and going quickly.

We were comparing the latest Outlook client that's got the Metro makeover -vs- an older version running on a Citrix farm, and the only thing that Metro really does is spread things out with lots of white space. That's it....

So buddy, when you say 'Emotional' my response points to the all the annoying empty space surrounding Metro GUI items and that's basically where the brains of Metro advocates lie - a bunch of empty white space.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
digital ed
Senior MemberPosts: 2,650Gear list
Like?
Re: 'Emotional' my $%^&
In reply to Scott Eaton, May 9, 2013

Scott Eaton wrote:

>>>>a reluctance mainly at an emotional level.

Sounds like somebody who doesn't use their computer for real work.

At one time today I had RDP sessions open on Server 2003, Server 2008, Server 2012, my own company laptop running Win8, two sessions of Citrix on 2008, and running Linux Ubuntu in VirtualBox trying to set up Freenix. I was a busy trying to support several remote sites for different clients.

Win8 is still totally annoying on all levels. If you're 12years old and 99% of your day is in Facebook and looking for Justin Bieber updates then Win8 / Metro is your thing. Otherwise any trip back to my laptop involved constant Win-R and other keyboard shortcuts just to do what took a few short clicks in the older GUIs. Win8 also loves to find an excuse to shove you in the Metro Desktop locking you out of what you are doing just to try and get you sign up for more MS junk. Meanwhile the SQL server I'm setting up on 2008 is twiddling it's thumbs waiting for me to figure out the alt-swizzle-stick combo to get out of the Win8 GUI inspired by Douglas Adams.

I don't even bother with trying to navigate Win8's control menus anymore. I just have run commands like ncpa.cpl in the run history because it's faster that way. My start button has become Win-R...that is until Win8 pulls a glitch and it starts opening recycle bin or something with that shortcut. Win8 starts faster from hibernation....that's it's only benefit over Win7...which makes it more efficient for when I have to plug my laptop into a data center at a remote site and be up and going quickly.

We were comparing the latest Outlook client that's got the Metro makeover -vs- an older version running on a Citrix farm, and the only thing that Metro really does is spread things out with lots of white space. That's it....

So buddy, when you say 'Emotional' my response points to the all the annoying empty space surrounding Metro GUI items and that's basically where the brains of Metro advocates lie - a bunch of empty white space.

You are obviously unfamiliar with Surface Pro whose OS is Win 8 Pro. Can run exactly like a Win 7 Ultimate when Classic Shell installed. I find no limitations in operation compared to Win 7. See my previous post.

By the way, your post does sound emotional.

 digital ed's gear list:digital ed's gear list
Olympus E-1 Olympus E-3 Nikon D800 Nikon 1 V2 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +13 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Sean Nelson
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,920
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, May 9, 2013

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

Sean,

I heard it reported that Bill Gates recently said that iPad users really don't like them because they don't have real keyboards and they all would be much happier with Surface tablets. Is this true? If so, isn't he in a parallel universe? Maybe Balmer's there, too?

Tablets lie in the middle of the spectrum that ranges from really portable phones to luggable laptops.   Phone users abhor full-sized keyboards because of their size, laptop users expect them.   Tablet users come from both camps, so I'm sure that some would like a Surface-like keyboard and some wouldn't.

But that's just a hardware issue.   The real battle, IMHO, is being fought on the app front.   The presence or absence of a keyboard is irrelevant if you can't get the app you need on the Surface.   The Surface is a non-starter for me because GoPro doesn't make a Windows 8 app - that's why I bought an Android smart phone instead of a Windows 8 one (ignoring for a moment the vast difference in the available hardware choices for Android vs. all the other platforms).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Michael Firstlight
Senior MemberPosts: 2,916Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to malch, May 9, 2013

OMG!  Who could possibly have predicted this? 

 Michael Firstlight's gear list:Michael Firstlight's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR Sigma 10-20mm F3.5 EX DC HSM +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 13,035
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to malch, May 9, 2013

malch wrote:

DonA2 wrote:

Not effecting me but it is nice to see them eating some humble pie.

What staggers me is the simple fact that this was all so predictable. And what has come to pass was actually predicted with considerable accuracy by multiple members of this forum

I didn't predict it (here) but...

I think tablets are awesome, I think PC's are fantastic, but you just can't bring the two OS's and interfaces together just because it sounds neat.

I use a mouse and keyboard. I do not want to ALSO touch a screen, and I don't want to have to change my efficient workflow to accommodate a screen that I don't want to touch. I have Windows 7, I'm an IT professional and just helped my mom in law get a new PC. I told her 'we will get you one with Windows 7 on it, you don't want Windows 8 and neither do I.' Got a nice one at the Dell outlet store online.

MS has some great stuff, I think Win 7 is excellent. I was not looking to completely re-think how I use my PC. The changes they've made to the Office user interface / menus etc. are bad enough to contend with.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 13,035
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to malch, May 9, 2013

malch wrote:

Doug R wrote:

So you'll be able to go strait to the desktop and have a start button, but the start button will just take you to the metro start page. Is this good enough to save Windows 8?

Windows isn't going to go away in the desktop world.

I have never considered moving to a Mac, but if the day comes that Windows 7 is not supported and MS's followups are like Windows 8, I will definitely think Mac at that point.

The real question is... can Windows gain any real traction in the mobile market.

They are gaining traction just because they've got installation on a number of phones (just to mention one device). But I know someone who bought a phone with Windows 8 on it and a few months later there was an update, and it wouldn't work on her phone!! No updates possible!

Love my iPhone and iPad and not getting rid of either.

Saddling the Windows brand with the "New Coke" associations is clearly not going to help. On the other hand, the Coca Cola company has survived as a significantly strong player in its market!

New Coke is an interesting story. Diet Coke was released to such amazing success that the Coke company reverse-engineered that artificially-sweetened product into a sugar-sweetened one ('New Coke'), which was probably the first time that was ever done. It wasn't good enough to make people forget the real Coca Cola though, thankfully.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 13,035
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to Sean Nelson, May 9, 2013

Sean Nelson wrote:

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

Sean,

I heard it reported that Bill Gates recently said that iPad users really don't like them because they don't have real keyboards and they all would be much happier with Surface tablets. Is this true? If so, isn't he in a parallel universe? Maybe Balmer's there, too?

Tablets lie in the middle of the spectrum that ranges from really portable phones to luggable laptops.   Phone users abhor full-sized keyboards because of their size, laptop users expect them.   Tablet users come from both camps, so I'm sure that some would like a Surface-like keyboard and some wouldn't.

I came late to the iPad party but early on I considered getting a case that included a keyboard. But for what, really? Such a keyboard will be too small to really touch-type on, and I find that for the amount of typing I do on my iPad, I do surprisingly well typing with two fingers on the touch screen keyboard. (Nowhere near the 100+ wpm I can manage on a real keyboard, but...)

Plus, it's always there, I don't have to make room for it or juggle it on my lap, there's no point unless I were to add a full-sized keyboard, and really to me that would be dumb. I didn't buy a keyboard for my iPad and if I had I doubt I'd have ended up using it.

iPad 4 is on the Fex Ex truck heading my way this PM; upgrading from '2 to get the Retina screen.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
digital ed
Senior MemberPosts: 2,650Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to Midwest, May 9, 2013

Midwest wrote:

malch wrote:

DonA2 wrote:

Not effecting me but it is nice to see them eating some humble pie.

What staggers me is the simple fact that this was all so predictable. And what has come to pass was actually predicted with considerable accuracy by multiple members of this forum

I didn't predict it (here) but...

I think tablets are awesome, I think PC's are fantastic, but you just can't bring the two OS's and interfaces together just because it sounds neat.

I use a mouse and keyboard. I do not want to ALSO touch a screen, and I don't want to have to change my efficient workflow to accommodate a screen that I don't want to touch. I have Windows 7, I'm an IT professional and just helped my mom in law get a new PC. I told her 'we will get you one with Windows 7 on it, you don't want Windows 8 and neither do I.' Got a nice one at the Dell outlet store online.

MS has some great stuff, I think Win 7 is excellent. I was not looking to completely re-think how I use my PC. The changes they've made to the Office user interface / menus etc. are bad enough to contend with.

Install Classic Shell on a Win 8 Pro and you do not need to re-think anything.

 digital ed's gear list:digital ed's gear list
Olympus E-1 Olympus E-3 Nikon D800 Nikon 1 V2 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +13 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
klavrack
Regular MemberPosts: 323
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to malch, May 9, 2013

Just ordered one of HP's remaining Windows 7 laptop.  I'm a dinosaur, I guess.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
skyglider
Senior MemberPosts: 2,857Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to malch, May 9, 2013

Two things made Win8 sales look better after its release:

  1. Win8's release date was October 26, 2013, just in time for the 2013 Christmas sales.  People who bought new PCs for Christmas got Win8.
  2. Third party software that brought the standard desktop start menu functionality back to the desktop plus the ability to boot directly into the desktop UI.

Regarding item-1, there must have be a backlash when users started returning Win8 PCs after Christmas.  PC manufacturers probably annoyingly reported their loss of sales to MS.  If Win8 had been released in the first half of the year, it's sales would have been more dismal without the Christmas buying.

Regarding item-2, only more advanced PC users are even aware of the third party option to restore the start menu and direct boot into the normal desktop UI.  Almost all of the people I know, except for one nephew who is in to computers, didn't/wouldn't have a clue as to the item-2 option.  All they would have known is "I don't know how to operate this Win8 PC and I don't like it".

I bought Win8 at the into offer and would have shelved it if it were not for the 3rd party option to restore the start menu and boot directly into the desktop.  I would have advised a friend who bought a new PC around Christmas not to buy one with Win8.  Because of the 3rd party software, she bought a Win8 PC and I converted it to the normal desktop UI.  She hated the Win8 UI by the way.

MS was really stupid.  They had a worldwide beta test bin to see Win8's acceptance.  All they had to do was leave the desktop start menu functionality in Win8 (instead of removing what was already in the development version of Win8), and put an "obvious" one click option on the Win8 UI to run Win8 using the standard desktop.

As I've said before, if Win8's UI is really that good, users would naturally transition to it without any "forcing" on MS' part.

Shocker?  Nope, it was expected.

$.02,
Sky

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
digital ed
Senior MemberPosts: 2,650Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to skyglider, May 9, 2013

skyglider wrote:

As I've said before, if Win8's UI is really that good, users would naturally transition to it without any "forcing" on MS' part.

Sky

First I believe Win 8 Pro is a great OS minus the Metro interface. I have a Surface Pro with it and have it on our dual boot entertainment PC with Win 7 Ultimate.

Your point regarding the natural acceptance is correct. If the interface was as good as MS believes there would be no problem. I wonder how long it will take the decision makers at MS to overcome their egos and adapt. Maybe Win 8 Blue is the chance.

Meanwhile, a daughter is buying my girlfriend a new laptop. She asked my advice and I said my GF would not be happy learning a new interface and she should buy a laptop with Win 7.

 digital ed's gear list:digital ed's gear list
Olympus E-1 Olympus E-3 Nikon D800 Nikon 1 V2 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +13 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
skyglider
Senior MemberPosts: 2,857Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to digital ed, May 9, 2013

digital ed wrote:

skyglider wrote:

As I've said before, if Win8's UI is really that good, users would naturally transition to it without any "forcing" on MS' part.

Sky

First I believe Win 8 Pro is a great OS minus the Metro interface. I have a Surface Pro with it and have it on our dual boot entertainment PC with Win 7 Ultimate.

Your point regarding the natural acceptance is correct. If the interface was as good as MS believes there would be no problem. I wonder how long it will take the decision makers at MS to overcome their egos and adapt. Maybe Win 8 Blue is the chance.

Meanwhile, a daughter is buying my girlfriend a new laptop. She asked my advice and I said my GF would not be happy learning a new interface and she should buy a laptop with Win 7.

If the laptop has USB3 ports, suggest getting Win8 with it.  Win7 does not natively support USB3 but Win8 does.  Plus Win8 with the free Classic Shell runs on the desktop like a Pre-Win8 PC.

Actually, even if the laptop doesn't have USB3 ports, suggest getting Win8 and installing the Classic Shell.  Just disable "active corners" in the Classic Shell to disable annoying Win8 popups and your GF won't even know she's running Win8.  (As long as she doesn't open any Win8 apps which do a forced return to the Win8 UI.)

Win8 will boot and shutdown faster. Plus it even allows web browsers (and I believe other frequently used software) to load faster by remembering things, even using spinner hard drives. At least it seems to do that on my friend's Dell Win8 tower that uses a spinner hard drive.  (I'm running my Win8 on a SSD so it's fast anyway.)

Sky

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
digital ed
Senior MemberPosts: 2,650Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to skyglider, May 9, 2013

skyglider wrote:

digital ed wrote:

skyglider wrote:

As I've said before, if Win8's UI is really that good, users would naturally transition to it without any "forcing" on MS' part.

Sky

First I believe Win 8 Pro is a great OS minus the Metro interface. I have a Surface Pro with it and have it on our dual boot entertainment PC with Win 7 Ultimate.

Your point regarding the natural acceptance is correct. If the interface was as good as MS believes there would be no problem. I wonder how long it will take the decision makers at MS to overcome their egos and adapt. Maybe Win 8 Blue is the chance.

Meanwhile, a daughter is buying my girlfriend a new laptop. She asked my advice and I said my GF would not be happy learning a new interface and she should buy a laptop with Win 7.

If the laptop has USB3 ports, suggest getting Win8 with it.  Win7 does not natively support USB3 but Win8 does.  Plus Win8 with the free Classic Shell runs on the desktop like a Pre-Win8 PC.

Actually, even if the laptop doesn't have USB3 ports, suggest getting Win8 and installing the Classic Shell.  Just disable "active corners" in the Classic Shell to disable annoying Win8 popups and your GF won't even know she's running Win8.  (As long as she doesn't open any Win8 apps which do a forced return to the Win8 UI.)

Win8 will boot and shutdown faster. Plus it even allows web browsers (and I believe other frequently used software) to load faster by remembering things, even using spinner hard drives. At least it seems to do that on my friend's Dell Win8 tower that uses a spinner hard drive.  (I'm running my Win8 on a SSD so it's fast anyway.)

Sky

Running Classic Shell on both Win 8 Pros that I have.

 digital ed's gear list:digital ed's gear list
Olympus E-1 Olympus E-3 Nikon D800 Nikon 1 V2 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +13 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
skyglider
Senior MemberPosts: 2,857Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to digital ed, May 10, 2013

digital ed wrote:

skyglider wrote:

digital ed wrote:

Meanwhile, a daughter is buying my girlfriend a new laptop. She asked my advice and I said my GF would not be happy learning a new interface and she should buy a laptop with Win 7.

If the laptop has USB3 ports, suggest getting Win8 with it.  Win7 does not natively support USB3 but Win8 does.  Plus Win8 with the free Classic Shell runs on the desktop like a Pre-Win8 PC.

Actually, even if the laptop doesn't have USB3 ports, suggest getting Win8 and installing the Classic Shell.  Just disable "active corners" in the Classic Shell to disable annoying Win8 popups and your GF won't even know she's running Win8.  (As long as she doesn't open any Win8 apps which do a forced return to the Win8 UI.)

Win8 will boot and shutdown faster. Plus it even allows web browsers (and I believe other frequently used software) to load faster by remembering things, even using spinner hard drives. At least it seems to do that on my friend's Dell Win8 tower that uses a spinner hard drive.  (I'm running my Win8 on a SSD so it's fast anyway.)

Sky

Running Classic Shell on both Win 8 Pros that I have.

Ahhh, good moves.
Sky

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
unknown member
(unknown member)
Like?
Re: If true it's a good step, but Microsoft has other UI problems
In reply to Simon Garrett, May 10, 2013

Simon Garrett wrote:

There's a great deal of evidence, notwithstanding your preferences, that a large proportion of desktop and laptop users don't like Metro.  They may be "emotional", they may be reluctant, they may be resistant to change, but customers don't have to justify their likes and dislikes.

Ha, ha, I think you actually missed my main point but whatever.

I am not sure exactly what percentage of Win 8 users don't like the new interface. I know millions of users are already using it and we don't quite hear them. There are some who are extremely unhappy with the new UI and
constantly complain about it on online forums. The rest even if not quite content with the new UI have started using it, getting used to it and be content with it. We are all entitled to our opinions but I see anger and aggressivity in the tone of some of those who dislike the new UI. Those who are ok with the new UI on the other hand, generally don't come online to express themselves.

On another note, I am all for companies listening to consumers and getting feedback from them on their products. However, this doesn't always lead to progress and improvment as sometimes consumers are reluctant to changes and improvements if it is against their old habits (like when the users here on dpreview who complained about having video recording option on digital still cameras). So a balance is indeed needed.

Tim Cook has an axe to grind, of course.  So do you.  So do I.  But his comments on Metro, biassed or not, chime with those of many critics of W8, which is why malch quoted the article, and why I quoted the specific comment.

None of us personally knows Tim Cook. You don't know me and I don't know you. I know for sure people vary in their level of greed and I know these wealthy big companies are more greedy than I can ever be. Whether his comment suits your or Malch sentiments against Windows 8, I would still not consider it worthy of discussion or even quotation.

You may like Metro, but I don't believe a UI designed for bit fat fingers on a small screen works well on a larger screen with keyboard and pointing device.  It throws away the advantage of a high-res screen and high-res pointing device.  Nor is there any compelling logic to suggest the same UI benefits users.  Users cope pretty well with different, appropriate UIs in different contexts.  Even "emotional" users.

I don't really see why you think Windows 8 is solely designed for touch screens. You, nor anyone else has ever brought a convincing argument that Win 8 is less efficient than the previous Windows for desktop usage. Tell me what previous windows with their start button can do that Win 8 cannot do?

IIMO, Win 8 is a hybrid OS designed to work for both desktop computers and touchscreen systems.  I have never used it on a touchscreen so I cannot attest to how good it is for that. I have solely used it on my desktop and I find it better than the previous windows. There is only one thing: there is some vidsual incoherence when switching back and forth between the full screen
metro and desktop. MS could have improved on the visual aspect by using tiles resembling desktop icons (more 3d buttons rather than flat tiles) and could have used better options instead of the solid color backgounds
(having an option of using a background image behind the tiles would have been great). But this isn't about practical functionality but the look.
Just for one fact: in metro, the user can customize the tiles according to his favor and preference. I can remove any preinstalled tile from the default screen and add tiles for the applications I want. I can resize
and rearrange the tiles. The new possibilities were not possible in the old start menu or were much limited. Metro start menu has given me more freedom of chocie than the old start menu which, I value. Moreover,
not having to navigate through tiny icons in the small start menu window in order to find and activate the application I want,( like in the past) is convenient and saves me time.

However, this isn't about users and user benefit.  I quite agree that Metro is MS's response to Apple's app store and ipad/iphone UI.  But they'll quite possibly fail even on tablets and phones as Android is likely to make a walled-garden for software difficult to sustain.  It offers nothing to users or 3rd-party developers.  And MS are even more likely to fail with Metro on laptops and desktops, as Metro is not a good UI for this context (IMHO, and in the opinion of most users, it would seem).

MS underestimated resistance from users who didn't like a rapid change in what they were used to see. But I doubt that will be a reason for MS to fail. Whether these users are in the majority, I am not sure either. MS is late comparing to iOS and Android for about five years or so. In the age of Internet, five years is enough for masses to settle on the new idol (iphone or else) feeling they would be at serious loss if they didn't own one.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
theswede
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,936Gear list
Like?
Re: Windows 8 shocker
In reply to digital ed, May 10, 2013

Install Classic Shell on a Win 8 Pro and you do not need to re-think anything.

Perfect solution for a corporate laptop where no user installs are allowed.

Not to mention, any OS where a separate install is required to make the OS usable is broken, no ifs and buts about it.

Jesper

 theswede's gear list:theswede's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D Sony SLT-A37 Sony 50mm F1.4 +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
theswede
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,936Gear list
Like?
Re: If true it's a good step, but Microsoft has other UI problems
In reply to raminolta, May 10, 2013

I don't really see why you think Windows 8 is solely designed for touch screens.

Try sliding from the top down without a touch screen and see how intuitive and easy it is compared to clicking on a screen button.

You, nor anyone else has ever brought a convincing argument that Win 8 is less efficient than the previous Windows for desktop usage.

No visual cues for where actions can be taken in the UI. That's a heavy cognitive load to push onto a user. The interface does not help you by being evident, it requires you to rote memorize corners and motions which have no real world analogs and which are non-obvious.

Tell me what previous windows with their start button can do that Win 8 cannot do?

Click on the start button to get a list of the programs installed on their computer.

IIMO, Win 8 is a hybrid OS designed to work for both desktop computers and touchscreen systems.

Which makes it bad for both. There is a reason Apple did not put OSX on the iPad nor iOS on their Macbooks.

I have never used it on a touchscreen so I cannot attest to how good it is for that. I have solely used it on my desktop and I find it better than the previous windows.

Your opinion is noted, as is the observation that it's in the minority.

There is only one thing: there is some vidsual incoherence when switching back and forth between the full screen
metro and desktop.

"Some". Understatement of the year.

Moreover, not having to navigate through tiny icons in the small start menu window in order to find and activate the application I want,( like in the past) is convenient and saves me time.

You have not had to navigate the start menu if you knew what you wanted to start in previous versions of Windows. However, in Windows 8 you are barred from examining what software is installed and be reminded of the name of it; you have to know what it's called or have it pinned in your Metro interface in order to find it. If you sit down at a colleague's computer you have no way of quickly discerning what software is installed on it.

This alone bars Windows 8 from serious consideration.

MS underestimated resistance from users who didn't like a rapid change in what they were used to see. But I doubt that will be a reason for MS to fail.

MS will fail because computers become commodities. They've fought this tooth and nail, and Windows 8 is their latest attempt, but they'll lose that battle. Not yet, but they will.

Whether these users are in the majority, I am not sure either. MS is late comparing to iOS and Android for about five years or so. In the age of Internet, five years is enough for masses to settle on the new idol (iphone or else) feeling they would be at serious loss if they didn't own one.

The problem isn't that Microsoft are late to the game. The problem is that Microsoft are not playing the same game. They're too big for that playfield. What Microsoft needs is for people to keep upgrading computers (and thus OS'es) but that cycle is stagnating and will come very close to a stop.

Corporations are not interested in upgrading because if what they have works, upgrading is a pure cost with zero benefit.

Consumers upgrade only when their old machine no longer satisfies them, and five year old computers today are so good that people no longer have to upgrade - plus, a big chunk of the upgrade funds instead go to smartphones and tablets.

This leaves Microsoft without their big cash cow - OS and Office upgrade cycles. And if that happens, Steves head rolls. So he tries anything, including Windows 8, to keep that from happening. Unfortunately neither Microsoft nor anyone else knows how to keep users upgrading PC's. Apple solved it by creating a new market segment. Others solve it by selling services. Microsoft tries everything they can think of, good or bad. But the days of carving gold from PC upgrades are coming to a close.

Jesper

 theswede's gear list:theswede's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D Sony SLT-A37 Sony 50mm F1.4 +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
migibson99
Regular MemberPosts: 211
Like?
Re: If true it's a good step, but Microsoft has other UI problems
In reply to raminolta, May 10, 2013

raminolta wrote:

I don't really see why you think Windows 8 is solely designed for touch screens. You, nor anyone else has ever brought a convincing argument that Win 8 is less efficient than the previous Windows for desktop usage. Tell me what previous windows with their start button can do that Win 8 cannot do?

Regarding the first point, even MS admits that W8 was designed with touch screens in mind.  Not solely for touch screens, but definitely geared towards touch screens.

Regarding the 2nd point, W8 may not be less efficient than W7 for desktop users, and it may be able to do everything that W7 can do (and more), but that is not the point.  The majority of the discussion on W8 has not been about its capabilities, but rather its UI.  Those are 2 completely different things.  This is why there will never be a "winner" to the arguments for or against W8.  Those arguing for W8 generally focus on its capabilities.  Those arguing against W8 generally focus on its UI.

I agree with a previous poster that 3rd party software is not an acceptable answer or solution to the UI issue, for several reasons.  First, you shouldn't have to install additional software to improve the usability of the UI.  Second, and probably most importantly, many/most users don't know about, or don't understand 3rd party options.  I'm not talking about users like my 13 year old daughter.  I'm talking about users like the majority of my business colleagues who use their computers for word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, contact and calendar management, e-mail, web surfing,  photo management (but not necessarily photo editing), etc.  In some respects they might be considered power users since they are using their computers up to 8 hours a day.  On the other hand, they are not necessarily technical experts with a great understanding of the mechanics of how their hardware and software runs and operates.  Lastly, as W8 matures, there is no guarantee that 3rd party programs will continue to work, or continue to work in the same manner.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads