6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)

Started May 4, 2013 | Discussions
rwbaron
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to mariadc, May 7, 2013

mariadc wrote:

This is not another 'which camera to buy'.  I recently purchased a 6D and although it took awhile, my skills have greatly improved at tracking moving objects (sports, BIF, etc.).  I started thinking that perhaps I could get even more shorts - or a higher 'keep' rate - with a 7D.  I borrowed one for a few days and took a few shots yesterday.  Yes, the AF is a little faster.  And there were more 'keeper' shots.

HOWEVER...  there's no comparison to the IQ of the 6D.  Even with the extra reach I get with my 100-400 on the 7D, if I crop in just a little, the noise is just terrible, at least after a month of using a 6D.  Granted, it was about 7:30am this morning and the lighting wasn't great yet, but it wasn't dark by any means.   This may sound crazy, but I feel that I got less noise with my 30D.

I would post comparison shots but I don't feel that I have the same conditions.  I'm going to try to go out this afternoon with both the 6D and 7D, set up my tripod, and get some shots.  Don't know if I can get comparable BIF shots but I can get an osprey in the nest.  (it's a nice sunny day so the 7D should do well - hopefully better than early this morning)

I just wanted to post because I see everyone saying that if you shoot BIF or action, then you should go with the 7D.  I wholeheartedly disagree.  I'd rather have the better IQ...

Photographically there is little to no difference if you consider framing, ISO, time value (shutter speed) and depth of field (aperture).  In reality there is about 1-1/3rd to maybe 1-1/2 stop RAW advantage in noise for the 5D3/6D over the 7D at higher ISO's but you need 1-1/3rd greater aperture for the same DoF so in a strict photographic sense the advantage is lost.  Now, if you don't need the DoF at higher ISO's then the FF bodies will provide an advantage.

Canon EOS 7D 1/1250s f/4.5 at 300.0mm iso200

100% crop

Canon EOS 7D 1/320s f/6.3 at 100.0mm iso200

Where's the problem with a noisy/grainy sky in the above image that's been aggressively sharpened?

It's all about knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your tools how to get the best from them.  RAW converters make a difference too.

Bob

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carlk
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to The Davinator, May 7, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

brudy wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

x-vision wrote:

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

There's no question that the 7D is noisier but the difference is overblown most of the time

DxO measures the ISO/noise difference between the 6D and 7D at two full ISO stops.
That is, the 6D totally blows out the 7D. So, I guess it could be said that the 7D is overblown.

Well, I guess if you are doing landscape photography at 3200iso and up, at 20x30, then yes, it'll matter a bit.  At 100 to 800 iso, it wont.

It's not just about noise but dynamic range as well.

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The dynamic range between the two is virtually identical.

True and neither camera would be my first choice, or second choice, for 20x30 ISO100 landscape.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to springbock, May 7, 2013

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

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springbock,  Nice one from you, as always.

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JLim22
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to springbock, May 7, 2013

That's a 100% crop?

Can you post the original then?

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amobi
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to qianp2k, May 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

Not very sharp and detailed either.  A bit of soft and mushy, and a bit overblown at bottom half of the head from what I see.  Since its FL is only 210mm, so 6D/5D3 in this case with 100-400L can beat it hands down in IQ - sharpness and details.  Show us wings in shadows for example that would see difference clearly.

LOL... your blind my friend! Did you view the original? Hands down smands down.... you're too funny!

Seriously the photo is simply not that sharp and detailed – bottom half of head is a bit overblown,

It's not overblown, tilt your screen a bit. Heck look at your own lion shot, do you see an overblown part on the female?

Yes but smaller part of sunlight beam compared to a much bigger part in the sneak head.  It's much complicated light in my lion shot in near noon contrast sunlight and shade/shadow.  I had to pull shadows quite a bit actually.

Besides that has nothing to do with sharpness. Plus it is a 100 percent crop! Yours is not!!

It definitely affects sharpness if that part is white-out therefore lost details. I will show 100% cropped. It's already a bit over 60% cropped.

It is sharp, especially considering a 1.4 tc was used, look at the original.

On my standard it's not tack sharp. What lens used? From 70-200mm? A bare 200mm without TC certainly is sharper than with TC. Also this photo doesn't have sufficient DOF that only a small part of head is in focus that also affects overall sharpness.

Also how do you know how much detail is actually in this snakes head? You obviously don't! You did not see it. I'm not going to argue with you because it's futile and that is exactly what you want.

I know snake heads could have high details, LOL.

http://www.wikihow.com/Identify-a-Venomous-Snake

http://www.wired.com/rawfile/2013/02/mark-laita-serpentine/#slideid-16372

Not sure what you tried to argue.  If you want to say 7D/60D can take good and sharp photos, yes I agreed as my own 60D generated many good photos.  But no doubt 6D/5D3 generates better, sharper and more detailed photos if no FL limit as in this snake case with 100-400L lens for example.  So your photo even under that circumstance as you said, it's not bad but just not great in IQ.

the eye doesn't have much textual detail either, neither on skin and tongue. Since 210mm from 100-400L is not FL limited in this shot, we have every reason to believe 6D/5D3 will generate noticeably better IQ without requiring any cropping.

Sure you have every reason to satisfy your photo but I just express my opinion as an observer not trying to be funny.

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It is kind of hard to convince crop camera users about the difference in IQ with full frame. I am surprised that this old argument is still going on.

I made a mistake in buying Nikon D7100. After just one day of outing I've already put it up for sale. I don't know what I was thinking. I made the same mistake when 7D first came out. It is kind of depressing editing crop camera images next to a full frame. The difference is night and day unless you shoot ISO 100 all day.

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The Davinator
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to carlk, May 8, 2013

carlk wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

brudy wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

x-vision wrote:

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

There's no question that the 7D is noisier but the difference is overblown most of the time

DxO measures the ISO/noise difference between the 6D and 7D at two full ISO stops.
That is, the 6D totally blows out the 7D. So, I guess it could be said that the 7D is overblown.

Well, I guess if you are doing landscape photography at 3200iso and up, at 20x30, then yes, it'll matter a bit.  At 100 to 800 iso, it wont.

It's not just about noise but dynamic range as well.

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The dynamic range between the two is virtually identical.

True and neither camera would be my first choice, or second choice, for 20x30 ISO100 landscape.

That's when I pull out my D800 or 4x5 rig.

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qianp2k
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to amobi, May 8, 2013

amobi wrote:

It is kind of hard to convince crop camera users about the difference in IQ with full frame. I am surprised that this old argument is still going on.

I know it has been more than two years

I made a mistake in buying Nikon D7100. After just one day of outing I've already put it up for sale. I don't know what I was thinking. I made the same mistake when 7D first came out. It is kind of depressing editing crop camera images next to a full frame. The difference is night and day unless you shoot ISO 100 all day.

I have seen your D800 photos but not from ...whatever

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greg mclemore
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to mariadc, May 8, 2013

I agree as far as resolution and detail is concerned few slr can compete with the 6D, but if you are a birding or a fast action sports photography, no contest, its all 7D.

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springbock
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to carlk, May 8, 2013

Thanks Carl,

Tom

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springbock
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to JLim22, May 8, 2013

JLim22 wrote:

That's a 100% crop?

Can you post the original then?

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The Davinator
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Depends...
In reply to mariadc, May 8, 2013

At higher iso, the 6D has about a 2 stop advantage.  So, if you need a lot of high iso work, then the 6D could be a better bet.  If you reside in the 100 to 400... and maybe 800 iso range....a range where most shooting normally occurs, the differences vanish.  I know in my case I can obtain clean 3200 11x14 prints for wedding albums.  So obviously the limits run higher than 800.

The best thing for you to do would be to download the raw samples from the Imaging Resource test site.  There are numerous comparison shots to work with.  This is what I do a fair bit to get a grasp of what the real world benefits are.  In my case, for landscape work, there is no resolution or dyanmic range advantage in the 6D.  I ran a few crops from processed 16x24, 20x30 and 30x45  prints.  In print, where it matters, there was no visible difference.  The few people I have shown could not see any difference.

The 5D3 is a different matter as the rez difference may become visible in some circumstances.  But for most of what I do, if any difference shows , it is only on a 100% screen view from 12".  As my clients dont get full rez copies of my work, this would never matter.  To measurebators, pixel peepers, and delerious fanboys, it may make a difference.  I try to cater to the real world....not fantasy.

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qianp2k
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to ASR45, May 8, 2013

ASR45 wrote:

Thought it would stand to reason the high ISO alone on the 6D blows the 7D out of the water.    

Not just in high ISOs but in low ISOs as well such as when view in large size in dark blue sky or people skin in shadow in portrait, much cleaner without noticeable grains you can see in Canon 18mp APS-C cameras, no comparison. With 6D or 5D3 you can open shadows in much higher degree with much less noises and noticeable banding. Also in color tonality and sharpness that photos from 6D/5D3 looks more dynamic and popup in general.

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qianp2k
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to mariadc, May 8, 2013

mariadc wrote:

I tried some comparison shots but due to the different ISO, I don't think it's fair to post them (it wasn't very controlled - I haven't been able to go back out today because of a sick child here at home).

But here are some real-life BIF shots with both.  I'm wondering if I have to eat my words - haha.  I like the color of the detail on the 7D better - it doesn't seem as 'high contrast' (correct term?) as the 6D, which almost looks unnatural.  Hmmm....  Thoughts?  (Again, these aren't controlled shots and there are different factors that could also be affecting the pictures such as ISO, etc, but these are real life examples).

I still think the 6D wins hands down with low light, such as sunset and sunrise, when bird are active and hunting/fishing/gathering.

Lens:  100-400 @ 400mm

Shot in JPG, no post-processing (30D was converted from RAW to JPG)

30D:

30D

7D:

7D

7D

6D:

6D

6D

Just comparing you two hawk-in-flight photos, 6D one is noticeably cleaner that show more details under wings and head while already can see noticeable grains on 7D one that got help by partial sunlight lit but cannot see much details in dark shadows of the wings that I know it will fall apart if you try to lift

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Searching
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Well said Dave....
In reply to The Davinator, May 9, 2013

Totally agree and you are entirely right.

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qianp2k
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100% cropped 5DIII samples in real world
In reply to qianp2k, May 9, 2013

100% cropped from that lions shot at ISO 400 and after pulled shadows.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3MrYp_nWjPGOGNUYlpmOURFVTA/edit?usp=sharing

100% cropped animal fur.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3MrYp_nWjPGaktYX19PT3BtNmc/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3MrYp_nWjPGeGQ2dXVZTU9oSG8/edit?usp=sharing

So when we talking feather details. What kind of details, just look hairy or actually you can see details of fur and still sharp at per-hair level

Anyway from this experience with 5D3 and 100-400L in the same zoo and compared to my previous sets from 60D+100-400L, I believe 5D3 can effectively overcome "reach" disadvantage but still maintain at least similar IQ (except small birds if I unable to move closer) after more cropping.

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Re: 100% cropped 5DIII samples in real world
In reply to qianp2k, May 9, 2013

Pushing and Pulling are terms that come from the darkroom.

If you pulled an image you were darkening the image, and if you pushed an image you were lightening it (often to make film perform at other than its designed ISO).

So pulling the shadows would mean making them darker.

So more photographically correct terminology would be that you would pull back highlights and push up shadows.

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qianp2k
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Re: 100% cropped 5DIII samples in real world
In reply to TTMartin, May 9, 2013

TTMartin wrote:

Pushing and Pulling are terms that come from the darkroom.

If you pulled an image you were darkening the image, and if you pushed an image you were lightening it (often to make film perform at other than its designed ISO).

I don't know how people use in the past.  But I read many if not most use pull meant to lift shadow in DPR forums.

So pulling the shadows would mean making them darker.

I can use word lift instead

So more photographically correct terminology would be that you would pull back highlights and push up shadows.

OK.  I'd use recover highlight and lift shadow

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All Bushs Fault
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Re: Depends...
In reply to The Davinator, May 9, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

As my clients dont get full rez copies of my work, this would never matter.

Wow!! You sound like a the typical US corporation regarding their customers i.e. what they don't know (or can see - at the moment of sale!)  won't hurt them.

To measurebators, pixel peepers, and delerious fanboys, it may make a difference.

Truth seekers?

I try to cater to the real world....not fantasy.

Where the real world is open to your plunder?

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The Davinator
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Re: 100% cropped 5DIII samples in real world
In reply to TTMartin, May 9, 2013

Pushing and Pulling are terms that come from the darkroom.

If you pulled an image you were darkening the image, and if you pushed an image you were lightening it (often to make film perform at other than its designed ISO).

So pulling the shadows would mean making them darker.

So more photographically correct terminology would be that you would pull back highlights and push up shadows.

Correct. I remember all this from many years of darkroom work, masking, etc. Of course, it actually has nothing to do with shadows. Exposing a target with a large scene brightness range means exposing more for the highlights. Invariably, this means the midtones can be moved from zone 4 or 5 down to zone 1 to 3. In order to place the midtones back where they should be involves increasing their values by 2to 4 stops. Because of this, we get a breakdown in tonality in the midtones. It has nothing at all to do with shadows. Unfortunately, some people dont understand this issue...which is why it keeps coming up

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The Davinator
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Re: Depends...
In reply to All Bushs Fault, May 10, 2013

All Bushs Fault wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

As my clients dont get full rez copies of my work, this would never matter.

Wow!! You sound like a the typical US corporation regarding their customers i.e. what they don't know (or can see - at the moment of sale!)  won't hurt them.

odd interpretation.  It appears you have no business experience.  This has to do with not giving away a master file that can be reproduced at whim, outside of your control, and with no payment to yourself as the original owner of the work.

To measurebators, pixel peepers, and delerious fanboys, it may make a difference.

Truth seekers?

Truth seekers?  Hardly

I try to cater to the real world....not fantasy.

Where the real world is open to your plunder?

Yes, because all us business owners do is plunder.  It is obvious any intelligent discussion with you is not possible,  nor is it really worth anyones time.

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