6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)

Started May 4, 2013 | Discussions
Mako2011
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Not limited
In reply to qianp2k, May 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:


Even that small size of the photo before cropping is not that sharp. FF cameras such as 5D III is noticeably sharper, LOL

Do you have the full size examples of these to share? They seem a bit lacking in detail. Would be nice to compare to the full size to see. Good Color and Low noise though.

Don't be fooled by amount of furs when you judge sharpness and details.

You don't have them? That's unfortunate. The crops don't look like really 100%, but indeed sharp enough. Lacking in detail/resolution only. You did fine with the compromises you were faced with. Nice job in that regard. It would appear that ones ability to severely crop, and still present a good/usable picture at moderate size, is indeed not limited by format. Thanks for sharing.

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qianp2k
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Re: Not limited
In reply to Mako2011, May 7, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:


Even that small size of the photo before cropping is not that sharp. FF cameras such as 5D III is noticeably sharper, LOL

Do you have the full size examples of these to share? They seem a bit lacking in detail. Would be nice to compare to the full size to see. Good Color and Low noise though.

Don't be fooled by amount of furs when you judge sharpness and details.

You don't have them? That's unfortunate. The crops don't look like really 100%, but indeed sharp enough. Lacking in detail/resolution only. You did fine with the compromises you were faced with. Nice job in that regard. It would appear that ones ability to severely crop, and still present a good/usable picture at moderate size, is indeed not limited by format. Thanks for sharing.

Gee, I have of course but not in my hands at this moment in my workplace. They are sharp and detailed. 5D3 files have very nice 100% cropped IQ under ISO 1600. I usually don't crop more than 50% of my 60D files. Anyway from our many debates before I know our judgments of sharpness and details are very different

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The Davinator
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Re: 7D -Image Quality is good enough
In reply to mailman88, May 7, 2013

mailman88 wrote:

....for most situations. I'm a wildlife/sport shooter with a budget.

7D...2500ISO, f/10, 1/1600sec. at 400mm

Glad to see you are enjoying the 7D.  Nice and clean iso 2500 Photo.  I have found that with a bit of NR in LR or Topaz, 6400 iso can produce clean 8x10 shots in wedding albums for my clients.  The extra reach for wildlife shots compared to FF means you don't need to crop at all....which is nice.  I don't do wildlife pics, but family portraits I do in the 16x24 and 20x30 offer great detail, tonality and exhibit no noise....even at 800 iso, which I never need for portraits.

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Mako2011
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In reply to qianp2k, May 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:


Even that small size of the photo before cropping is not that sharp. FF cameras such as 5D III is noticeably sharper, LOL

Do you have the full size examples of these to share? They seem a bit lacking in detail. Would be nice to compare to the full size to see. Good Color and Low noise though.

Don't be fooled by amount of furs when you judge sharpness and details.

You don't have them? That's unfortunate. The crops don't look like really 100%, but indeed sharp enough. Lacking in detail/resolution only. You did fine with the compromises you were faced with. Nice job in that regard. It would appear that ones ability to severely crop, and still present a good/usable picture at moderate size, is indeed not limited by format. Thanks for sharing.

They are sharp

Yes very (sharpness is subjective) good job here.

and detailed.

Not as much (resolution is objective) but unnecessary with the first subject...might be more noticeable/helpful with the second.

5D3 files have very nice 100% cropped IQ under ISO 1600. I usually don't crop more than 50% of my 60D files.

Yes, you would be more restricted with 60D files. Still a fine camera though, very capable. Thanks again for sharing. It would seem that one now has great leeway cropping with either format with the current gen sensors. A great time to be snapping away.

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The Davinator
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to Keith Z Leonard, May 7, 2013

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

If you search for 7D images you will find quite a few fantastic images from the 7D.  I've owned one and now have a 5Dmk3, the processing of 7D files and handling of that camera differs quite a bit from the 5D.  Selective sharpening and nailing exposure, etc...I've been able to get great shots from the 7D, but it's trickier and requires more back end effort, though once you've gotten your presets all done in lightroom, it's not THAT much more effort.  I'm always somewhat surprised when experienced photographers come out bashing the 18mp cameras.  The image quality of the 35mm format cameras is better, but to make sweeping statements about how terrible a 7D is seems very short sighted.  It would take all of 5 minutes online to discover the truth of the situation.

Granted some people seem to be more sensitive to the differences than others, but still...in head to head comparisons at ISO 400 or below with good processing techniques the difference is there, but isn't a show stopper.  You are talking about a camera with a much higher pixel density, it's going to take different technique, certainly I find my 5D3 to be more forgiving than my 7D, but both have produced great images for me, and both can produce stinkers too.

I find the most vocal people are  those who stare at 100% screen views....as though staring at the equivalent of a 60" print from 10" actually matters in real world use.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to x-vision, May 7, 2013

x-vision wrote:

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

There's no question that the 7D is noisier but the difference is overblown most of the time

DxO measures the ISO/noise difference between the 6D and 7D at two full ISO stops.
That is, the 6D totally blows out the 7D. So, I guess it could be said that the 7D is overblown.

Well, I guess if you are doing landscape photography at 3200iso and up, at 20x30, then yes, it'll matter a bit.  At 100 to 800 iso, it wont.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to qianp2k, May 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

riknash wrote:

Mike921 wrote:

So, comparing a latest technology FF camera with a 2+ year old crop frame camera - and this is a valid discussion about what again?

In my mind, this is a discussion about if a FF camera can deliver equal or better image results than the 7D. Canon has yet to come out with a much improved APS-C sensor in an action camera, so it is still valid to compare the output of a FF with it, as many have chosen to utilize their FF camera in situations one would think would be better served with a crop sensor.

Shooting the same dining merlin with the same lens at the same physical distance with both a 7D and a 5DIII.

Male merlin having lunch.

I don't see much difference in this case.  7D photo received double light and is a bit of over-exposed while 5D3 one is a bit of under-exposed.

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The 5D3 image is oversharpened.  The 7D image is not overexposed at all....simply opening the shot and looking at the level histogram shows it is exposed perfectly.  The 5D3 image is underexposed.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to The Davinator, May 7, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

x-vision wrote:

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

There's no question that the 7D is noisier but the difference is overblown most of the time

DxO measures the ISO/noise difference between the 6D and 7D at two full ISO stops.
That is, the 6D totally blows out the 7D. So, I guess it could be said that the 7D is overblown.

Well, I guess if you are doing landscape photography at 3200iso and up, at 20x30, then yes, it'll matter a bit.  At 100 to 800 iso, it wont.

It's not just about noise but dynamic range as well.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to brudy, May 7, 2013

brudy wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

x-vision wrote:

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

There's no question that the 7D is noisier but the difference is overblown most of the time

DxO measures the ISO/noise difference between the 6D and 7D at two full ISO stops.
That is, the 6D totally blows out the 7D. So, I guess it could be said that the 7D is overblown.

Well, I guess if you are doing landscape photography at 3200iso and up, at 20x30, then yes, it'll matter a bit.  At 100 to 800 iso, it wont.

It's not just about noise but dynamic range as well.

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The dynamic range between the two is virtually identical.

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qianp2k
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to brudy, May 7, 2013

brudy wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

x-vision wrote:

Keith Z Leonard wrote:

There's no question that the 7D is noisier but the difference is overblown most of the time

DxO measures the ISO/noise difference between the 6D and 7D at two full ISO stops.
That is, the 6D totally blows out the 7D. So, I guess it could be said that the 7D is overblown.

Well, I guess if you are doing landscape photography at 3200iso and up, at 20x30, then yes, it'll matter a bit.  At 100 to 800 iso, it wont.

It's not just about noise but dynamic range as well.

And color tonality, sharpness and details especially in shadows like these two that their wings are in shadows completely. 5D3 still can reveal details well after 2-stop pulling while Canon 18mp APS-C espeically 7D in this case will be plunged in noises and banding if you pulled, or have to apply strong NR that will effectively smear details.

FF 5D3 shows feather details nicely

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NancyP
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7D less forgiving re: acceptable IQ
In reply to Keith Z Leonard, May 7, 2013

+1. Still, I like having "more pixels on the bird". It is hard to fill up FF with a tiny songbird. Eagerly awaiting 7D2 with better sensor and 1DX/5D3 grade AF.

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In reply to mailman88, May 7, 2013

with behavior (preening).

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6D for dawn / dusk BIF and for astrophotography
In reply to mariadc, May 7, 2013

For those of us with "budget" birding lenses ("budget" defined as at or below $1,600.00), the prime dawn hour can be difficult with a wide-open f/5.6 lens. I find myself running the 60D at ISO1600 or 3200 early in the dawn hour. Oodles of noise. Noise in the daytime at ISO 400 is perfectly fine, ISO 800 acceptable but not great.

Night photography and astrophotography is another area where the 60D/7D sensor doesn't shine. Granted, for astrophotography, you average out the image and subtract the averaged dark sensor read, and things improve greatly.

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springbock
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to qianp2k, May 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to springbock, May 7, 2013

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

Not very sharp and detailed either.  A bit of soft and mushy, and a bit overblown at bottom half of the head from what I see.  Since its FL is only 210mm, so 6D/5D3 in this case with 100-400L can beat it hands down in IQ - sharpness and details.  Show us wings in shadows for example that would see difference clearly.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to qianp2k, May 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

Not very sharp and detailed either.  A bit of soft and mushy, and a bit overblown at bottom half of the head from what I see.  Since its FL is only 210mm, so 6D/5D3 in this case with 100-400L can beat it hands down in IQ - sharpness and details.  Show us wings in shadows for example that would see difference clearly.

LOL... your blind my friend! Did you view the original? Hands down smands down.... you're too funny!

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- longer reach of 7D question
In reply to mariadc, May 7, 2013

If you use the same lens on the both cameras, you would of course would will have a smaller field of view on the 7D- that's why it is called a crop camera. However you can crop the 6D to the same size FOV as you get with the 7D. When you do this, do you see more detail in the 7D image? Some people feel that a crop camera gives the equivalent of a longer focal length lens because of its narrower FOV, but you can always crop the FF image to equal the 6D FOV. The images are then the same size and the DOF is the same. However, the pixel size on the 7D is smaller, so in principle you should be able to see more detail with it; it's the film equivalent of using finer grain film (though I can't remember anyone saying they use fine grain film for a longer reach). So, do you see a significant gain in detail with the "finer-grained 7D than with the 6D. If you don't than you really don't acieve any longer reach with it.

As an example, with the same lens on both my T2i and my 5DIII, I see more detail in the T2i image jus as one might expect,  and thus I could say that has a longer reach with the same lens. I would prefer to say it has higher angular resolutionbecause of the smaller pixels, but that may be  just getting technical. To be sure, you won't achieve higher resolution with smaller pixels if the lens isn't up to it, if the focus isn't accurate, and if camera shake has no affect on resolution.

Joe

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qianp2k
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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to springbock, May 7, 2013

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

Not very sharp and detailed either.  A bit of soft and mushy, and a bit overblown at bottom half of the head from what I see.  Since its FL is only 210mm, so 6D/5D3 in this case with 100-400L can beat it hands down in IQ - sharpness and details.  Show us wings in shadows for example that would see difference clearly.

LOL... your blind my friend! Did you view the original? Hands down smands down.... you're too funny!

Seriously the photo is simply not that sharp and detailed – bottom half of head is a bit overblown, the eye doesn't have much textual detail either, neither on skin and tongue. Since 210mm from 100-400L is not FL limited in this shot, we have every reason to believe 6D/5D3 will generate noticeably better IQ without requiring any cropping.

Sure you have every reason to satisfy your photo but I just express my opinion as an observer not trying to be funny.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to qianp2k, May 7, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

Not very sharp and detailed either.  A bit of soft and mushy, and a bit overblown at bottom half of the head from what I see.  Since its FL is only 210mm, so 6D/5D3 in this case with 100-400L can beat it hands down in IQ - sharpness and details.  Show us wings in shadows for example that would see difference clearly.

LOL... your blind my friend! Did you view the original? Hands down smands down.... you're too funny!

Seriously the photo is simply not that sharp and detailed – bottom half of head is a bit overblown,

It's not overblown, tilt your screen a bit. Heck look at your own lion shot, do you see an overblown part on the female? Besides that has nothing to do with sharpness. Plus it is a 100 percent crop! Yours is not!! It is sharp, especially considering a 1.4 tc was used, look at the original. Also how do you know how much detail is actually in this snakes head? You obviously don't! You did not see it. I'm not going to argue with you because it's futile and that is exactly what you want.

the eye doesn't have much textual detail either, neither on skin and tongue. Since 210mm from 100-400L is not FL limited in this shot, we have every reason to believe 6D/5D3 will generate noticeably better IQ without requiring any cropping.

Sure you have every reason to satisfy your photo but I just express my opinion as an observer not trying to be funny.

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Re: 6D vs 7D --- Image Quality (there's no comparison)
In reply to springbock, May 7, 2013

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

springbock wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Once you can frame your subject into a portion of 6D VF that is not too small, 6D IQ wins hands down especially in low light. APS-C will still have an advantage in small birds that you'd have to crop 6D files heavily.

I brought 5D3 with the same 100-400L into the zoo in the past Sunday. Compared to previous sets done from my 60D, I found 5D3 photos are sharper despite I need to crop more. FF 6D/5D3 withstands cropping much better than APS-C.

The lions stayed at far end of the rock. I have to crop around 60% but it's still sharp even I cropped to 100% that is something my 60D cannot match.

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Meh....

This is a 100% crop from the 7D. Far from soft or mushy!

Not very sharp and detailed either.  A bit of soft and mushy, and a bit overblown at bottom half of the head from what I see.  Since its FL is only 210mm, so 6D/5D3 in this case with 100-400L can beat it hands down in IQ - sharpness and details.  Show us wings in shadows for example that would see difference clearly.

LOL... your blind my friend! Did you view the original? Hands down smands down.... you're too funny!

Seriously the photo is simply not that sharp and detailed – bottom half of head is a bit overblown,

It's not overblown, tilt your screen a bit. Heck look at your own lion shot, do you see an overblown part on the female?

Yes but smaller part of sunlight beam compared to a much bigger part in the sneak head.  It's much complicated light in my lion shot in near noon contrast sunlight and shade/shadow.  I had to pull shadows quite a bit actually.

Besides that has nothing to do with sharpness. Plus it is a 100 percent crop! Yours is not!!

It definitely affects sharpness if that part is white-out therefore lost details. I will show 100% cropped. It's already a bit over 60% cropped.

It is sharp, especially considering a 1.4 tc was used, look at the original.

On my standard it's not tack sharp. What lens used? From 70-200mm? A bare 200mm without TC certainly is sharper than with TC. Also this photo doesn't have sufficient DOF that only a small part of head is in focus that also affects overall sharpness.

Also how do you know how much detail is actually in this snakes head? You obviously don't! You did not see it. I'm not going to argue with you because it's futile and that is exactly what you want.

I know snake heads could have high details, LOL.

http://www.wikihow.com/Identify-a-Venomous-Snake

http://www.wired.com/rawfile/2013/02/mark-laita-serpentine/#slideid-16372

Not sure what you tried to argue.  If you want to say 7D/60D can take good and sharp photos, yes I agreed as my own 60D generated many good photos.  But no doubt 6D/5D3 generates better, sharper and more detailed photos if no FL limit as in this snake case with 100-400L lens for example.  So your photo even under that circumstance as you said, it's not bad but just not great in IQ.

the eye doesn't have much textual detail either, neither on skin and tongue. Since 210mm from 100-400L is not FL limited in this shot, we have every reason to believe 6D/5D3 will generate noticeably better IQ without requiring any cropping.

Sure you have every reason to satisfy your photo but I just express my opinion as an observer not trying to be funny.

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