Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows

Started May 3, 2013 | Discussions
The Davinator
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to Akshaj, May 5, 2013

Akshaj wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

I use a variety of Canon cameras but have since  a year also used the Nikon d800 in my work
Canon has not kept pace with sensor development which can be seen here in terms of dynamic range and detail of the lowest levels, D800 is now my main tool for the photo shoots I perform, ie medical photos

this is the DR from the two cameras 5dmk3 and d800 from high light and down in levels towards shadows, the both cameras identically exposed time  f-stop and at base iso

we can be proud that Nikons has the co work with Sony and also Toshiba, Aptina Renesas for the different cameras we can use compare to Canon and their own sensor design

to the left Canon 3dmk3 with 35/1,4 to the right Nikon d800 with Sigma 35/1.4

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Michael,

As much as I like the fact that the Nikon D800 is a great camera and you show the examples of great DR from it, I  do not understand your intentions in these forums.

I see that you are posting numerous threads with similar topics (with the same examples) in Canon forums showing its inferiority in DR compared to D800. However it is more than one year after D800 has been released and most of the people in this forum are aware of its strengths. IMHO there is no point in coming with such chest thumping claims in this forum.

D800 is a great camera and based on my limited experience with 5D Mark III, it is also a great camera. As the users of these cameras we know the strength and weakness and work accordingly (BTW - I own D800, 24-70, Tamron 70-200VC and Sigma 35mm and I really liked my gear). I have tremendous respect for many Canon photographers who shot great photographs with 5D Mark III. My request to you is to get over this and stop this Canon DR bashing exercise (at least in Nikon forum).

-Akshaj

The intention is to show differences of the gear.  If you dont like gear comparisons, you might want to frequent a different forum.....as this is a gear site.

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AZBlue
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Re: Comparing tractors and family cars
In reply to Antal I Kozma, May 5, 2013

Antal I Kozma wrote:
Skroob,

You missed the point of the OP. He was not talking about comparing price levels. he was simply talking about shadow noise differences. We could compare the D800 to MF as well where MF has the upper hand and it is in a different price league as well. By the way, such comparisons do exist.

That said, indeed the D800 is better than the 5D Mark III in respect to shadow noise. At least in a certain ISO range. On the other hand the 5D Mark III is the more useful generalist camera catering to a wide range of photographers.

So, there is no need to get upset about which is in which price range and no need to be overly proud about that "mine is better than yours". Both are great cameras while supporting different photographic needs.

Best, AIK

But comparing the shadow noise performance of two different cameras in two different price categories makes no sense. If you are going to compare two cameras, they should be in the same price range so that you can better compare what each camera is offering you for the same price. Otherwise, what's the point? You can compare a $50,000 MF camera to the $3,000 D800 and conclude the $50,000 MF has better shadow detail. Okay, so what. That is a totally irrelevant comparison.

I think it's fair to say that either the D600 or the D800, when compared to their counterparts on the Canon side, blow the Canons out of the water.

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rayman 2
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I know that Nikon has a better tonal rendition.........
In reply to The Davinator, May 5, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

I use a variety of Canon cameras but have since  a year also used the Nikon d800 in my work
Canon has not kept pace with sensor development which can be seen here in terms of dynamic range and detail of the lowest levels, D800 is now my main tool for the photo shoots I perform, ie medical photos

this is the DR from the two cameras 5dmk3 and d800 from high light and down in levels towards shadows, the both cameras identically exposed time  f-stop and at base iso

we can be proud that Nikons has the co work with Sony and also Toshiba, Aptina Renesas for the different cameras we can use compare to Canon and their own sensor design

to the left Canon 3dmk3 with 35/1,4 to the right Nikon d800 with Sigma 35/1.4

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In a properly exposed scene with a large range, in order to maintain the highlights, the midtones get placed down around zone 2.  In order to move them back to zone 4 or 5 where they were, they need to be brought back.  This is where Nikon blows Canon out of the water.  The tonality of the replaced midtones are smooth, clean, and have good color and rez.  Some on the Canon forums mistakingly refer to it as shadow pulling.....mainly because they dont understand basic metering.  It is actually all about placing midtones back where they should be.

I know that Nikon has a better tonal rendition.........

I always knew that but still I bought myself a Canon 60D with a 17-50mm VC Tamron lens

for a very low second hand price... simply for the fact that I want and need a camera that I can use overhead.....(articulated screen)

I wont ditch all my Nikon gear no way ! I love my D800E and D4

but still the 60D will be used where the D800 cant be used that easily...... so its not only about tonality and super high resolution....

I use everything that helps me get the pictures I want and I can buy cameras just as easily...

Peter

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zappa1976
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to Mikael Risedal, May 5, 2013

1) This is how appear the cr2 with zero adjustment

View: original size

and this is the net from the D800:

View: original size

Sorry but it is no true the the shadows are equally exposed. The 5D3 file is a bit underexposed compared to the D800.

2) This is what Mikael is able to obtain from 5D3.

and this is my result in 1 minute of post production with the cr2 from 5D3:

View: original size

3) The focus point of the 5d3 is different compared to the d800 file.

The portion of shadow shown by Mikael (an in my sample) isn't perfectly in focus on 5D3 file (the focus is a behind) and this isn't good for details. In D800 file the focus is ok in the portion of shadows.

No doubt that the dynamic range of the D800 is visibly higher.But honestly expose a photo in this way to save the highlights of a lamp that covers 1/1000 of a portion of the scene sacrificing the rest of the image I find it a choice absurd for a photographer.

In any case, it seems clear that Mikael wanted to obtain the worst from the 5D3 cr2.

Have you any doubt about it now??

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rayman 2
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to zappa1976, May 5, 2013

zappa1976 wrote:

1) This is how appear the cr2 with zero adjustment

View: original size

and this is the net from the D800:

View: original size

Sorry but it is no true the the shadows are equally exposed. The 5D3 file is a bit underexposed compared to the D800.

2) This is what Mikael is able to obtain from 5D3.

and this is my result in 1 minute of post production with the cr2 from 5D3:

View: original size

3) The focus point of the 5d3 is different compared to the d800 file.

The portion of shadow shown by Mikael (an in my sample) isn't perfectly in focus on 5D3 file (the focus is a behind) and this isn't good for details. In D800 file the focus is ok in the portion of shadows.

No doubt that the dynamic range of the D800 is visibly higher.But honestly expose a photo in this way to save the highlights of a lamp that covers 1/1000 of a portion of the scene sacrificing the rest of the image I find it a choice absurd for a photographer.

In any case, it seems clear that Mikael wanted to obtain the worst from the 5D3 cr2.

Have you any doubt about it now??

theses are very academic and sometimes useless discussions....

Yes the people are spanning the cameras more then you realy would in normal photography to prove something...

But quite frankly this is a very very very boring picture and that is what I see when I look at the photo.....

Photography is about something else....... not about splitting hair or tonal range......;)

Peter

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David Hull
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Re: Not really shadows....
In reply to The Davinator, May 5, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

I use a variety of Canon cameras but have since  a year also used the Nikon d800 in my work
Canon has not kept pace with sensor development which can be seen here in terms of dynamic range and detail of the lowest levels, D800 is now my main tool for the photo shoots I perform, ie medical photos

this is the DR from the two cameras 5dmk3 and d800 from high light and down in levels towards shadows, the both cameras identically exposed time  f-stop and at base iso

we can be proud that Nikons has the co work with Sony and also Toshiba, Aptina Renesas for the different cameras we can use compare to Canon and their own sensor design

to the left Canon 3dmk3 with 35/1,4 to the right Nikon d800 with Sigma 35/1.4

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In a properly exposed scene with a large range, in order to maintain the highlights, the midtones get placed down around zone 2.  In order to move them back to zone 4 or 5 where they were, they need to be brought back.  This is where Nikon blows Canon out of the water.  The tonality of the replaced midtones are smooth, clean, and have good color and rez.  Some on the Canon forums mistakingly refer to it as shadow pulling.....mainly because they dont understand basic metering.  It is actually all about placing midtones back where they should be.

Mainly because that is what most of the examples consist of, not unlike the example used by the OP where the end result is ugly in both cases. You can argue about which is uglier, perhaps, but neither has much value as a usable image.

The proponents of the Sony/Nikon technology would perhaps be more convincing if they put up examples where the Sony/Nikon image remained usable. Whether you want to frame it as lifting midtones from zone 2 to zone 4 or 5 or lifting shadows 2 or 3 stops you are still talking 2 to 3 stops which is something either technology can easily achieve when used properly within its limitations (granted it requires more care with some of the Canons).  Unfortunately this sort of thing doesn’t seem to find its way into these forum discussions too often, what we continually seem to be entertained with is a pair horrible looking flat images devoid of any lighting drama created expressly for making a point.  This is an artificial problem, for the most part.  It would be nice if Canon would fix it though (and I think they will – cost savings will drive them to it).

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DuxX
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to rayman 2, May 5, 2013

rayman 2 wrote:

Photography is about something else....... not about splitting hair or tonal range......;)

Yep... but better dynamic range + better tonal range + better color range make the photographs look better. ... if the photographer doesn't screw up somewhere, of course

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David Hull
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to rayman 2, May 5, 2013

rayman 2 wrote:

zappa1976 wrote:

1) This is how appear the cr2 with zero adjustment

View: original size

and this is the net from the D800:

View: original size

Sorry but it is no true the the shadows are equally exposed. The 5D3 file is a bit underexposed compared to the D800.

2) This is what Mikael is able to obtain from 5D3.

and this is my result in 1 minute of post production with the cr2 from 5D3:

View: original size

3) The focus point of the 5d3 is different compared to the d800 file.

The portion of shadow shown by Mikael (an in my sample) isn't perfectly in focus on 5D3 file (the focus is a behind) and this isn't good for details. In D800 file the focus is ok in the portion of shadows.

No doubt that the dynamic range of the D800 is visibly higher.But honestly expose a photo in this way to save the highlights of a lamp that covers 1/1000 of a portion of the scene sacrificing the rest of the image I find it a choice absurd for a photographer.

In any case, it seems clear that Mikael wanted to obtain the worst from the 5D3 cr2.

Have you any doubt about it now??

theses are very academic and sometimes useless discussions....

Yes the people are spanning the cameras more then you realy would in normal photography to prove something...

But quite frankly this is a very very very boring picture and that is what I see when I look at the photo.....

So very, very true... I often wonder, can any of these guys make a decent photograph.  Almost without exception, the examples are boring and worthless.

Photography is about something else....... not about splitting hair or tonal range......;)

Yep...

Peter

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David Hull
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to DuxX, May 5, 2013

DuxX wrote:

rayman 2 wrote:

Photography is about something else....... not about splitting hair or tonal range......;)

Yep... but better dynamic range + better tonal range + better color range make the photographs look better. ... if the photographer doesn't screw up somewhere, of course

But... If this were REALLY true (in any sort of broad sense anyway), you would be able to easily pick out what camera shot what photo in any gallery exhibition which we all know is quite tough to do.  The reality is that all of the current HW is so darn good that the practical differences are minor at best.

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SushiEater
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I have both cameras D800e and 5D III so.....
In reply to Mikael Risedal, May 5, 2013

I am more than qualified here to give my opinion than most people who only own one of these.

As far as OP starting this thread he is 100% correct. Nikon sensor is much better than Canon's sensor.
Look at samples below. I don't think this kind of the shot is even possible with 5D3. It is not an HDR.

That said D800 is NOT a better camera. Both cameras were designed as general purpose cameras (jack of all trades, master of none) with one being inclined more towards landscape photography (D800) than the other. Generally everything can be done with either cameras.

In some cases (like event photography) Canon 5D3 is better. High resolution is not a requirement to have most of the time and 5D3 is better in that respect because it has orientation focusing but Nikon does not. That feature along made up my mind to stay with Canon. Very important when I shoot on the red carpet.

I was originally switching from Canon to Nikon and since I sold most of my Canon lenses for the same or higher price than I bought them for it was not that painful. But I am glad I didn't.

30 seconds shot exposed for the sky with ND filter. I have no idea how much it is really underexposed.

From the camera.

Processed.

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DuxX
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to David Hull, May 5, 2013

I think you need to spend some time with D800 to make statement like that. There is very very big difference in terms of overall image quality. Possibilities of D800 files for post processing are enormous regarding to any files I've seen (work with) till now. Someone will know to use that in right purpose and someone else don't.

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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to DuxX, May 5, 2013

Someone on this thread said "the mark III is a "cute" camera".  You guys crack me up.  As a 5d3 shooter, I could brag about the superior low light, or the superior 6 fps shooting, or the moire/artifact free video, or the superior lens selection with the Canon.

Both are fine cameras and have their strengths and weaknesses.  I wouldn't grab a D800 for shooting sports but probably would grab one for landscapes.  Day to day I don't want to work with such huge raw files, and I can pull out plenty of shadows in post with the 5d3.  I also prefer the FAR superior AF system in the Canon.

Nikon D800's are cute though.

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Mikael Risedal
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Re: D800 is worse at high ISO
In reply to DarkShift, May 5, 2013

DarkShift wrote:

Better DR with D800 applies only to low ISO (under 1600 ISO). Check DxOMark in screen mode. Higher than that, Canon wins. With high ISO D800 exhibits very annoying banding noise sometimes even worse than 5D mkII.

So for low light shooting D800 is not the best choice. And yes I've got one.

does it? i have comparison between 1dx and d800 at 2500iso I can show and you can guess which one is d800

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Mikael Risedal
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1dx and d800 at 25000Iso
In reply to CeleryBeats, May 5, 2013

same exposure, Im surprised how well d800 hold against 1dx optimized for high iso shooting

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Re: 1dx and d800 at 25000Iso
In reply to Mikael Risedal, May 5, 2013

That's amazing!  Considering the difference in pixel density it's simply jaw dropping.  Let's not forget how a hassleblad for example crumbles when you hit ISO 400. Though at base ISO's it's not a hassleblad just yet, the performance is ludacris over the whole ISO range.

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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to Shield3, May 5, 2013

I agree with most of what you are saying but certainly do not agree with your statement on FAR superior AF system. Just because 5D3 has more focusing points does not constitute FAR superior focusing system considering that all of them bunched up in the middle. I would say that both systems are about the same especially after the firmware update on the D800. I tested myself both camera focusing on the darkest spot in my living room with the light off. Had to use 6400 ISO just to take a picture on tripod and both cameras focused just about the same using 24-105 on Canon and 24-120 on Nikon. It maybe not a scientific test but good enough for me.

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Mikael Risedal
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to zappa1976, May 6, 2013

zappa1976 wrote:

1) This is how appear the cr2 with zero adjustment

View: original size

and this is the net from the D800:

View: original size

Sorry but it is no true the the shadows are equally exposed. The 5D3 file is a bit underexposed compared to the D800.

2) This is what Mikael is able to obtain from 5D3.

and this is my result in 1 minute of post production with the cr2 from 5D3:

View: original size

3) The focus point of the 5d3 is different compared to the d800 file.

The portion of shadow shown by Mikael (an in my sample) isn't perfectly in focus on 5D3 file (the focus is a behind) and this isn't good for details. In D800 file the focus is ok in the portion of shadows.

No doubt that the dynamic range of the D800 is visibly higher.But honestly expose a photo in this way to save the highlights of a lamp that covers 1/1000 of a portion of the scene sacrificing the rest of the image I find it a choice absurd for a photographer.

In any case, it seems clear that Mikael wanted to obtain the worst from the 5D3 cr2.

Have you any doubt about it now??

what in heck has the actual  sharpness plane to with banding and noise and why smear the picture with lot of noise reduction?

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David Hull
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to DuxX, May 6, 2013

DuxX wrote:

I think you need to spend some time with D800 to make statement like that. There is very very big difference in terms of overall image quality. Possibilities of D800 files for post processing are enormous regarding to any files I've seen (work with) till now. Someone will know to use that in right purpose and someone else don't.

Nope... not buying it. Perhaps some time someone can implement a properly run double blind test where we have perhaps 100 images, half originating from something like a 5DIII, half from the D800, each optimally captured, post processed and printed by someone who knows what they are doing with that particular camera. You get about 30 seconds to ponder each one and write down which camera you think did the capture.

How well would you do?  Do you think you could get them all right? Would you get half of them right?  Can you honestly say that your score would be any better than one could obtain through flipping a coin for each one?  I would love to see such an experiment done.

Anyone can take a particular piece of gear and instrument a test to expose its weaknesses or strong points but in the real world of photography, this is not what is done.  All of this gear when properly used (by people who know how to properly use it) is capable of producing stunning images and that is pretty much what we see.   And, FWIW I don't need any experience with the D800 to know that, all I have to do is look at the plethora of images available from the huge number of very competent photographers doing great work with both systems.

It is that very fact there that makes these discussions so comical, if one of these systems were significantly better than the other, that particular vendor as the old saying goes, having built the better mousetrap, would see the world beating a path to their door… but that’s not what we see.

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Mikael Risedal
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to David Hull, May 6, 2013

David Hull wrote:

rayman 2 wrote:

zappa1976 wrote:

1) This is how appear the cr2 with zero adjustment

View: original size

and this is the net from the D800:

View: original size

Sorry but it is no true the the shadows are equally exposed. The 5D3 file is a bit underexposed compared to the D800.

2) This is what Mikael is able to obtain from 5D3.

and this is my result in 1 minute of post production with the cr2 from 5D3:

View: original size

3) The focus point of the 5d3 is different compared to the d800 file.

The portion of shadow shown by Mikael (an in my sample) isn't perfectly in focus on 5D3 file (the focus is a behind) and this isn't good for details. In D800 file the focus is ok in the portion of shadows.

No doubt that the dynamic range of the D800 is visibly higher.But honestly expose a photo in this way to save the highlights of a lamp that covers 1/1000 of a portion of the scene sacrificing the rest of the image I find it a choice absurd for a photographer.

In any case, it seems clear that Mikael wanted to obtain the worst from the 5D3 cr2.

Have you any doubt about it now??

theses are very academic and sometimes useless discussions....

Yes the people are spanning the cameras more then you realy would in normal photography to prove something...

But quite frankly this is a very very very boring picture and that is what I see when I look at the photo.....

So very, very true... I often wonder, can any of these guys make a decent photograph.  Almost without exception, the examples are boring and worthless.

Photography is about something else....... not about splitting hair or tonal range......;)

Yep...

Peter

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this is incredible funny  how you try to explain away the dynamic range and signal / noise at 100iso

we take first a look at se  what the measurements says about the two different sensors and at base iso

then we are looking at details in the foreground and back ground from the d800 and 5dmk3= around the plane of sharpness from sigma and canon 35/1,4 at 1,4

t

The lack of details is due a higher read out noise in 5dmk3 and banding/pattern noise who shows up in  lower levels than we se here. And now to real figures http://www.sensorgen.info/CanonEOS_5D_MkIII.html has 12 times higher read out noise than d800 at base iso http://www.sensorgen.info/NikonD800.html

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Mikael Risedal
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Re: Difference between D800 and 5dmk3 in the shadows
In reply to Mikael Risedal, May 6, 2013

another area inside the church, whether or not  the sharpness plane  is exactly the same so are  the signal to noise ratio worse in 5dmk3 and  banding  can be seen even higher up in levels

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