Are m4/3 cameras too expensive when you…

Started Apr 30, 2013 | Discussions
Thorgrem
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Re: Buying a camera
In reply to Guy Parsons, Apr 30, 2013

Or a E-PL5 kit with the 14-42IIR and 40-150R for 750 euro.

A very nice kit. Small, light and good image quality with a very large range.

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Dreeke
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start with the double zoom kit
In reply to Grobb, Apr 30, 2013

Start with the double zoom kit, giving you a 14-42 mm and a 40-150 mm zoom. Both will do fine and give you a good start. You might want to add a (TTL) flash.
Then, when you are used to them, decide what other lenses you want. Take your time, build your kit slowly but steady.

Good lenses to add (in MY opinion):

- the sigma 30mm f/2.8
- the olympus 45mm f/1.8
- the olympus 17mm f/2.8 pancake (I know, I know, but I said "in MY opinion")

more "specialists":
- the samyang 7.5mm fisheye (nice toy!)
- the olympus 9-18 mm (or panasonic 7-14 if you want wider)
- the olympus 60mm f/2.8 macro
- one of the long zooms, panasonic 100-300 or olympus 75-300 (I or II)

And for low-light I started using a panasonic 20mm f/1.7 some time ago (I got one in a deal with my used panasonic 100-300, I didn't plan on buying it, but the seller wanted to get rid of his mft lenses and made me an offer I couldn't resist, so now I have two pancakes: a oly 17mm f/2.8 and a pana 20mm f/1.7)

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forpetessake
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Re: Are m4/3 cameras too expensive when you…
In reply to Grobb, Apr 30, 2013

tron555 wrote:

I’ve decided to look at getting an E-PL5, the Panasonic 14-45mm and Panasonic 45-150mm lenses. After reading many reviews on the Internet and this forum, I think this system would be a perfect start.

It's a reasonable compromise. You can't really go much cheaper, those old Panasonics people mentioned are sold for cheap because they are garbage, the kit 14-42 is the worst normal zoom I've used among any system, the 45-200 is very poor at the long end. To go better than what you've chosen would require quite a lot of money. There is some good inexpensive adapted glass you can get if you are willing to manually focus, but then you would be better served by Sony as it provides focus peaking, which in my experience is essential.

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baxters
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Re: Are m4/3 cameras too expensive when you…
In reply to Grobb, Apr 30, 2013

tron555 wrote:

I’ve decided to look at getting an E-PL5, the Panasonic 14-45mm and Panasonic 45-150mm lenses. After reading many reviews on the Internet and this forum, I think this system would be a perfect start. I also appreciate some excellent advice and suggestions that made a LOT of sense to me by Guy Parsons. Thanks Guy, you really seem to know what you are talking about.

I cannot argue with the above choices if one wants to get a little better quality, but you're falling into the same obsessive pursuit of perfection trap that you described in your original post.

The EPL5 is currently on sale for $549 in the USA. You only save $50 by not getting the 14-42 II. Take the lens. Try it out.  The 40-150 is $149 right now, but it was $99 eight weeks ago and is sure to drop to that level again.

Then if you're lucky, maybe someone will give you an old OM 50mm f1.8 for free or next to nothing and you can pick up the VF3 for $99 on sale this month plus a $12 adapter.

Oly 45mm standard at f7.1

14-42 II at 42mm and f5.6

14mm f2.5, another standard. at f7.1

14-42 II at 14mm and also f7.1

Oh, there is a big difference between the 45mm and the 14-42 II, but it doesn't always show in a casual shot.

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Guy Parsons
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Re: it'll be expensive only if you want
In reply to enrique santa, Apr 30, 2013

enrique santa wrote:

You dont need to buy an epl5. A scond or third generation cam from pana oly could be yours from 150 eur to 350 with kit lens.
And for lenses you have plenty of vintage lens really inexpensive and ofers in ebay of native m 4/3 lens.
I'm sure you can buy an epl2 with kit lens plus an 40 150 for about 450 eur.
In this forum there are a lot of people crazy for gear and more worried in test their gear than in made photos. Please forgive them you will be more happy shooting than reading this kind of things.

No way, the sudden leap in quality and convenience from say the E-P3 generation or earlier to the E-PL5 makes the E-PL5 a standout camera.

I have E-PL1, E-P3 and E-PL5, the earlier ones are not exactly mistakes but the E-PL5 is the only thing I use now.

Make the right purchase now and you can relax for a few more years without adding stuff that might not get used much. Add the FL-300R flash along the way is my only suggestion.

Regards..... Guy

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Guy Parsons
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Decisions...
In reply to Grobb, Apr 30, 2013

Ah, sound advice from a sensible person. Hey! Wait, that's me.

Anyway my reasons for the kit lenses do make sense, I have both Oly 14-42mm Mk1 and Mk2 and the Pana 14-45mm and the Panasonic lens is just plain nicest to use, non collapsing design, nice metal mount, lens hood supplied, image quality good even wide open, switchable OIS makes it the standout of the kit lenses.

Paired with that the Pana 45-150mm, again nice build, metal mount, lens hood supplied and with the E-PL5 the OIS can be used to get a nice stabilised preview. Makes a world of difference in real use. Then the suitable MySets assigned to the Mode dial make it so that I can turn stabilisation on/off by twisting the Mode dial. Life's so easy now on the E-PL5 with way way less menu diving, definitely a better camera to use than the E-M5.

As an aside the better performance of the E-PL5 has made me less anxious to go seek prime lenses, the kit lenses work so much better with the E-PL5 than they did with E-PL1 or E-P3.

Regards...... Guy

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Guy Parsons
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In reply to Guy Parsons, Apr 30, 2013

One thing I forgot to say about the Panasonic lens choice, they both use 52mm filters, that matches the 9-18mm lens as well. Makes filters a bit easier to manage.

Regards...... Guy

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MrScorpio
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Yes! But it depends...
In reply to Grobb, Apr 30, 2013

I have dual systems. OMD and 6D (Canon).

In MY opinion the systems are very different. The OMD does not stand a chance against the 6D in terms of IQ when shooting RAW. The 6D does not stand a chance against portability, IF you want to travel and bring a lot of gear, or put the cam in your pocket.

I also find that the 6D actually can also be a cheaper alternative, since Canon has some very good lenses at very low prices, like 40/2.8, 50,1.8 etc. and if you go up one step in prices there is a wide range of really excellent glass at still very affordable prices.

Based on my experiences I would go for the 6D if I had to choose only one system, since the mft is a compromise between IQ and portability (when shooting RAW), and the Canon FF can be really cheap if you want lots of glass. The OMD body does not give me any disadvantage except for DOF limitations if I shoot JPEG, which I rarely do.  On the other hand, if you want to shoot 600 mm (eq) the Canon glass is Stratospherically expensive, so at the end you must analyze your needs and come to a conclusion.

Having said this, I still firmly believe that a few good books about lighting, general knowledge and composition is the best and cheapest way of taking radically better pictures from just one week to another. The often bashed upon Ken Rockwell has IMO some very excellent articles on his site, that can improve ones pictures radically if read, considered and understood...

well, that was my 2 cents...

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MrScorpio
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Re: "free" kit lens plus $99 does it.
In reply to Just Having Fun, May 1, 2013

Just Having Fun wrote:

You can get the 40-150 mm Olympus lens for $99 new often.  The Panasonic version is not much more.

As Tedolf mentions, you can get primes cheap.  My 50mm F/1.4 was $40.

Maybe I was just lucky ad got an insanely good copy of this lens, but even disregarding it being almost ridiculously cheap, it is one of the best lenses I have. Apart from the Aperture it is not less good than my 75/1.8!

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Grobb
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Re: Yes! But it depends...
In reply to MrScorpio, May 1, 2013

MrScorpio… I have three questions for you.

  1. What is the difference in price between the 6D Canon and 2 lenses from 14-150mm and the E-PL5 and its 2 lenses from 14-150mm?
  2. What is the difference in weight between the 6D/2 and 2 lenses from 14-150mm and the E-PL5 and its 2 lenses from 14-150mm?
  3. What is the difference between total IQ between the 6D and the E-PL5 percentage wise?

I know you will not and cannot answer these questions, because it would be embarrassing to do so, but I will ask you anyway. Is the difference in price, weight, portability and ease of use really worth it in your opinion? Think about it!

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Guy Parsons
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Re: Yes! But it depends...
In reply to Grobb, May 1, 2013

tron555 wrote:

MrScorpio… I have three questions for you.

  1. What is the difference in price between the 6D Canon and 2 lenses from 14-150mm and the E-PL5 and its 2 lenses from 14-150mm?
  2. What is the difference in weight between the 6D/2 and 2 lenses from 14-150mm and the E-PL5 and its 2 lenses from 14-150mm?
  3. What is the difference between total IQ between the 6D and the E-PL5 percentage wise?

I know you will not and cannot answer these questions, because it would be embarrassing to do so, but I will ask you anyway. Is the difference in price, weight, portability and ease of use really worth it in your opinion? Think about it!

If you had to make money from your images then it's best to go the conservative heavy duty route. If just for personal use and recording your life and your holidays then the M4/3 outfits make way more sense.

Horses for courses of course.

Regards...... Guy

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benarden
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Re: No
In reply to Grobb, May 1, 2013

tron555 wrote:

… Consider how many expensive lenses are absolutely needed, just to cover your basic needs?

No:

- bought a refurbished Oly e-PL1 and two second hand lenses;
both work great.
Hope this helps. . .

The Sea, Rotatingly Polarized

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Grobb
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Re: No
In reply to benarden, May 1, 2013

Very nice composition and color, but too much noise and smearing for ISO 200 IMHO. I think the new and improved E-PL5 sensor and better lenses would have done just a bit better. It's not all about the money for me since I only upgrade every 4-5 years, I want something that will work for me and I will be happy more than happy with. Thanks anyway for the suggestion.

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Lights
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Maybe it's a good thing
In reply to Grobb, May 1, 2013

Otherwise I'd have way too many lenses and cameras and no room for my wife...wait, maybe she'd have no room for me?

Seriously though, what some others have said...the kit zooms (2 lens kit preferably) and maybe a good but inexpensive prime or two (the Sigma 19 and 30 together are or were selling for less than 200.00 USD) and many are very pleased with them. Some seriously good fast manual focus lenses to fill in the gaps, especially at focal lengths you don't use a lot (or maybe you'll like them so much you'll use them a great deal, who knows?). Look for bargains, for good quality used. I agree with some others about a G5 (the prices will be coming down soon) or and EPL5, or something similar (though some good cameras like the Pens and the G3 can be had for a song). Might as well get a camera you won't feel needs upgrading soon. I've got a couple of EPL1's, and they have downsides sensor wise, but don't feel the need to upgrade quite yet (notice I said "quite yet" )

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MrScorpio
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Well, here is my view to your questions!
In reply to Grobb, May 1, 2013

Hi there

Embarrassing?? Not at all. Pls see my input below. Most interesting discussion btw...

tron555 wrote:

MrScorpio… I have three questions for you.

  1. What is the difference in price between the 6D Canon and 2 lenses from 14-150mm and the E-PL5 and its 2 lenses from 14-150mm?

Your underlying critique is correct in the case you state here, I agree. But if one wants really good IQ from a system with lots of primes, the 6D paired with Canons non L primes has made it affordable, in many cases even more affordable than the mft system.

  1. What is the difference in weight between the 6D/2 and 2 lenses from 14-150mm and the E-PL5 and its 2 lenses from 14-150mm?

Well let me give you another example for Ultimate IQ if now considering weight. 6D + the very good 40/2.8 = 885gram (1716 usd), OMD + Panasonic 25/1.4 = 625 gram (1418 usd). Prices from Amazon.com.

But this is where you missed my point. I said that the Canon FF will be heavier, which is the price you have to pay for ultimate IQ. But as you see above the difference does not have to be that big in weight and price to get access to the FF shooting, should you want that.

  1. What is the difference between total IQ between the 6D and the E-PL5 percentage wise?

Now thats a strange question to me at least... Which conditions? What subject? What glass? What shooting style?

Sometimes I can use my OMD over my 6D to get that nice dark grainy b/w look in my pictures, Which is harder with the 6D.

600 mm with my FF? Nope, I cannot spend that money and weight for that. The OMD is unbeatable with the 75-300 in this aspect.

Super shallow DOF, shooting RAW when conditions require high ISO due to weak light. Of course my 6D with the 85/1.2.

If you ask me about the average IQ. Well in pure IQ shooting RAW. 6D hands down. JPEG not much of a difference as long as you dont need very shallow DOF, but even then there are ways around that with the OMD (separate the background from the subject and attach the 75/1.8.

I know you will not and cannot answer these questions, because it would be embarrassing to do so, but I will ask you anyway.

Why should a technical discussion be embarrassing? Dont worry, I am too old to get easily embarrassed anymore (45). Its a very interesting discussion, at least to me.

Is the difference in price, weight, portability and ease of use really worth it in your opinion? Think about it!

Well thats harder. If possible money wise, I think the two systems are excellent complements to each other. But if only one system??? I dont know... Its like choosing between a deep porcelain plate or a flat plastic plate for your dinner tonight. It depends on what you are going to eat...

But as for me... Arrrrgh, I really dont know, but probably the 6d at the end. Or maybe the OMD... I cannot stand the thought to give up neither of them.

Who wants to invite your Mother in Law for dinner, serving her soup on a pice of flat plastic plate with a fork? That requires a nice deep porcelain plate with a spoon! And believe me, that is really worth the extra spending in money and weight...

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MrScorpio
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Reply to my own post...
In reply to MrScorpio, May 1, 2013

Hi again.

Sorry for the harsh tone in my reply to you. I did not realize until now you are the OP. I thought you were a fan boy just defending the mft system...

But my point is still there. It is so hard to choose between these two excellent systems. It is so wonderful to carry around the mft. A few days ago I was out with the 6D and the huge 70-200/2.8 IS L. Gosh what a pain it was. I have MUCH more fun with the OMD! On the other hand, sitting working with the pictures in the computer afterwards, I have MUCH more fun if the pics are taken with the 6D...

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Moti
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Re: Yes! But it depends...
In reply to Guy Parsons, May 1, 2013

Guy Parsons wrote:

If you had to make money from your images then it's best to go the conservative heavy duty route. If just for personal use and recording your life and your holidays then the M4/3 outfits make way more sense.

That is a wrong assumption based more on stigmas and rumors than on facts. As one who makes money from photography and I can tell you that according to my own experience, i cannot see any problem in using MFT gear for professional jobs. Of course, that depends a lot on what exactly you are doing. For some photography jobs, even a FF camera may not be good enough while for others, a camera such as OMD can be much more suitable than heavy duty gear.

I have been shooting FF dSLR gear for the past 5 years or so and am now in the process of switching to MFT and i am very happy. The more I gain experience and confidence with the format, the less I use my dSLRs and most of it is now going on sale.

Horses for courses of course.

Totally agreed but without an exact definition of the courses, you cannot choose the appropriate horses.

Moti

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MrScorpio
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Re: Yes! But it depends...
In reply to Moti, May 1, 2013

What professional work do you do? Portraits? Architecture? Other? Controlled light or natural light?

Just curious since my wife is a Portrait Pro and would never dream of shooting with mft for that...

Moti wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

If you had to make money from your images then it's best to go the conservative heavy duty route. If just for personal use and recording your life and your holidays then the M4/3 outfits make way more sense.

That is a wrong assumption based more on stigmas and rumors than on facts. As one who makes money from photography and I can tell you that according to my own experience, i cannot see any problem in using MFT gear for professional jobs. Of course, that depends a lot on what exactly you are doing. For some photography jobs, even a FF camera may not be good enough while for others, a camera such as OMD can be much more suitable than heavy duty gear.

I have been shooting FF dSLR gear for the past 5 years or so and am now in the process of switching to MFT and i am very happy. The more I gain experience and confidence with the format, the less I use my dSLRs and most of it is now going on sale.

Horses for courses of course.

Totally agreed but without an exact definition of the courses, you cannot choose the appropriate horses.

Moti

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miketala
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Re: Yes! But it depends...
In reply to MrScorpio, May 1, 2013

This portrait pro shoots exclusively mft.

http://www.damianmcgillicuddy.com/about/

MrScorpio wrote:

What professional work do you do? Portraits? Architecture? Other? Controlled light or natural light?

Just curious since my wife is a Portrait Pro and would never dream of shooting with mft for that...

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SW Anderson
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Re: Are m4/3 cameras too expensive when you…
In reply to Mittskitts, May 1, 2013

I second the notion that kit lenses are too often and too easily dismissed as mediocre. I have both the original and model II  Olympus 14-42mm kit lenses, having bought the latter to be able to use the Olympus wide angle add on.  I am very impressed with the resolution, sharpness, contrast characteristics and flare control exhibited by both. I see the metaphorical glass as more than half full with these lenses. I recently ordered a refurb (looks brand new in every detail) 40-150mm from the Olympus Web site for $99, but haven't had a chance to really use it yet.

My suggestion for tron555 is to get to know your kit lens or lenses very, very well before deciding on other lens purchases. While doing that, save your nickels, dimes and dollars. If after a few months or a year you really, really want to buy more lenses, you'll have a better idea of what more you need and probably more money to get  that lens. I suspect that you'll also join Mittskitts and me in having a healthy respect for your kit lens or lenses, and will want to keep them handy.

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