Fuji X20 review posted

Started Apr 30, 2013 | Discussions
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Trevor G Veteran Member • Posts: 6,541
Re: Comments section of X20 review - X20 out-resolves everything

SHood wrote:

The LX7 and other Bayer sensor compact will show much better results using RAW and ACR.  The DPR studio comarision clearly shows this.  Comparing the X20/Silkypix with LX7(etc)/ACR would be a better comparison.

What makes you think that?

But I do find the LX7 sensor to be noisier than the X20 sensor, even at base ISO.

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Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Trevor G Veteran Member • Posts: 6,541
Re: Comments section of X20 review - X20 out-resolves everything
1

DS21 wrote:

In a wider photographic community Silkypix will never become a mainstream player, or even anything more then anecdotal in numbers, so its eventual excellence with X20 files is a moot point for most advanced users. They will NOT develop a second workflow just because of X20, or switch their "serious" APS-C, 4/3 or FF cameras they certainly have (as most likely buyers of enthusiast X20) to Silkypix.

Then they will lose, won't they?

I changed to Silkypix for all my cameras.

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Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Trevor G Veteran Member • Posts: 6,541
Re: Fuji X20 review posted and it out-resolves everything

AdamT wrote:

I`ll leave you to your deliberately biased results Trevor - you`re famous for it , you even skew Fuji vs Fuji tests

That's worth a yawn, Adam T.

Funny how you cannot actually show bias, because all images have been processed at default settings in the same tool.

That eliminates bias and error.

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Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Trevor G Veteran Member • Posts: 6,541
Re: Fuji X20 review posted and it out-resolves everything

AdamT wrote:

- comparing your heavily skewed silkypix developments is pointless, you do it so often that no one takes your tests seriouly anymore

Ho ho - skewed in what way, Adam T?

Baseless allegations with no substance...

Even DPR show a remarkable difference in IQ between the X10 and the X20.

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Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

DS21 Senior Member • Posts: 1,952
Re: Comments section of X20 review - X20 out-resolves everything

Trevor G wrote:

DS21 wrote:

In a wider photographic community Silkypix will never become a mainstream player, or even anything more then anecdotal in numbers, so its eventual excellence with X20 files is a moot point for most advanced users. They will NOT develop a second workflow just because of X20, or switch their "serious" APS-C, 4/3 or FF cameras they certainly have (as most likely buyers of enthusiast X20) to Silkypix.

Then they will lose, won't they?

I changed to Silkypix for all my cameras.

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Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Fuji X20 market acceptance among RAW shooting enthusiasts is the one to lose in this case. The company must be much bigger and better then Fuji to successfully swim against the tide (or even try to reverse it). X10 soldiered good enough with decent JPEG's (so more people were content with just Fuji colors and JPEG), what will the X20 JPEG's do for the X20?

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CAcreeks
CAcreeks Veteran Member • Posts: 8,933
F200EXR vs Fuji X20, studio scene
2

Here is an easy way to compare the X20 with the great old F200EXR. Most of the items in the studio scene are the same, except the glob changed. Resolution is similar.

F200EXR at ISO 100

X20 at ISO 100, the whole scene

CAcreeks
CAcreeks Veteran Member • Posts: 8,933
X-Trans advantage at high ISO only
2

Trevor G wrote:

Even on APS-C, the advantages of X-Trans are only visible at high ISO, and when I look at most of my good images, they are mostly taken at low ISO.

Do you really think so?

Both images are RAW ISO100 processed at default settings in Silkypix 5.  What do you think?

I was comparing JPEG. I think I would never use Silkypix, and am even resistant to using Corel Aftershot, which is the only commercial Raw processor that runs on Linux. (I am hoping to avoid Windows for the rest of my life.)

This thread is full of people who have an X20 and like it, so I am happy for them, but in some ways it does not really seem like a big improvement over the F200EXR.

SHood Veteran Member • Posts: 4,571
Re: Comments section of X20 review - X20 out-resolves everything

Trevor G wrote:

SHood wrote:

The LX7 and other Bayer sensor compact will show much better results using RAW and ACR.  The DPR studio comarision clearly shows this.  Comparing the X20/Silkypix with LX7(etc)/ACR would be a better comparison.

What makes you think that?

I prefer to compare best against best.

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SHood Veteran Member • Posts: 4,571
Re: Comments section of X20 review - X20 out-resolves everything

Trevor G wrote:

DS21 wrote:

In a wider photographic community Silkypix will never become a mainstream player, or even anything more then anecdotal in numbers, so its eventual excellence with X20 files is a moot point for most advanced users. They will NOT develop a second workflow just because of X20, or switch their "serious" APS-C, 4/3 or FF cameras they certainly have (as most likely buyers of enthusiast X20) to Silkypix.

Then they will lose, won't they?

I changed to Silkypix for all my cameras.

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Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Based on the the SilkyPix Raw conversions you have provided today from various small sensor compacts, ACR/LR does a much better job converting these RAW files.  Just compare your SilkyPix RAW conversions from any of the Bayer small sensors to the RAW output in the DPR studio that comes from ACR.  The DPR studio results shows a lot more detail from these sensors.

It looks like SilkyPix was been customized for Fuji sensors where as ACR has been fine tuned for the Bayer sensor.  Unfortunately, the vast majority of cameras still use a Bayer sensor so switching to SilkyPix for all our own cameras is not a good proposition.  And switching between software doesn't help with workflow.  Some people might be able to compromise but others will stick with the majority of cameras that have a similar work flow.

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DebraR Contributing Member • Posts: 858
Re: Fuji X20 has inherent too many..
currently available for no more than $499, maybe less.

Where have you seen the X20 for $499?  I haven't seen the price go down at all since release.

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Debra
Nikon D700, D300, Hexar AF, D70, N90 Oly C-5050 and an UZI!

tazmac
tazmac Regular Member • Posts: 360
Re: Comments section of X20 review - X20 out-resolves everything

Mr Sincere wrote:

Just echoing what DS21 said so well:

Hurray for you and Silkypix, but back here in the real world we have thousands of photos and years of experience invested in an established workflow, which more often than not uses ACR as the RAW converter.  A comparison using Silkypix might be informative at an academic level, but has zero real world application to many, if not most of us.

So, thanks for doing these comparisons (they really are interesting), but please don't act like those comparing the ACR output are somehow unfarily shortchanging the x20 sensor.  We're comparing using the tools that we'll be using to process the RAW files, which is the most practical way to make the comparison.

Back to he debate at hand, using Lightroom 4.4 (and all sorts of sharpening/NR combos), I just can't convince myself that the x20 output is better than the lx7, at any ISO.  Which is honestly a bummer for me, as I'm completely infatuated with the x20, but can't justify spending $300 more on something that probably has lesser image quality once you factor in the stop faster lens of the lx7 (on the wide end).

See you in the panasonic cc talk...

tazmac
tazmac Regular Member • Posts: 360
Thank you Jeff!

No text.

tazmac
tazmac Regular Member • Posts: 360
Re: Fuji X20 has inherent too many..

ttan98 wrote:

Trevor G wrote:

ttan98 wrote:

Don't regret not buying it, at retail price of $599, it is not cheap,

currently available for no more than $499, maybe less.

I think potential buyers should either wait for the next firmware upgrade that will fix all if not majority of these quirks OR the next model, X30?

Quirks?

Quirks come from the Cons reviewed by DPreview, I will NOT accepts quirks such as smearing of Jpeg(serious one), Noise at low ISO if NR=0(serious), Jpeg is not really up to standard, others are minor quirks most can be fixed via firmware upgrade. I will not pay $499 or $599 with these quirks.

Recently I bought a run out model, EP-3 for $345(retail when new for $999), absent of major/serious quirks. All the earlier models EP-1, EP2 and EPL-1 have far too major serious quirks.

If you are happy with the quirks that's fine too. It's your money after all.

I love it.

But then, I also loved the X10, until the X20 came along.

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Cheers
Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

Enjoy your camera!

Asylum Photo
Asylum Photo Senior Member • Posts: 1,277
Re: Fuji X20 review posted

Looks significantly better than what Adobe produced. Crazy.

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giuseppe pepperoni Regular Member • Posts: 125
Re: Fuji X20 review posted
3

I think much more of my x20 when I'm out using it instead of reading others' opinions.

It's hard to take a picture when you're in front of a keyboard.

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Sir Corey of Deane
Sir Corey of Deane Contributing Member • Posts: 997
Re: Fuji X20 review posted

+1.

Robert.

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Danielepaolo
Danielepaolo MOD Veteran Member • Posts: 4,364
Re: Fuji X20 review posted and it out-resolves everything
2

Trevor G wrote:

AdamT wrote:

I`ll leave you to your deliberately biased results Trevor - you`re famous for it , you even skew Fuji vs Fuji tests

That's worth a yawn, Adam T.

Funny how you cannot actually show bias, because all images have been processed at default settings in the same tool.

That eliminates bias and error.

It most likely does exactly the opposite, there are posts in this thread that show you are incorrect. You are using default settings which is lazy and defeats the purpose of processing RAW files. You are better off just comparing JPG files because you make no attempt to get the best out of the file, i.e. what someone attempts to do when they work in RAW.

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Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

Danielepaolo
Danielepaolo MOD Veteran Member • Posts: 4,364
Re: Fuji X20 has inherent too many fine details for some
1

Trevor G wrote:

ttan98 wrote:

Quirks come from the Cons reviewed by DPreview, I will NOT accepts quirks such as smearing of Jpeg(serious one),

Lol.

You turn NR back to -2.  That works well for JPEGs.  It's not perfect, but the detail should still be better, far better than the X10, for example.

Noise at low ISO if NR=0(serious),

Noise at ISO100 is awful (I love hyperbole) but I don't mind it when I see all the detail the other cameras miss.

If you are happy with the quirks that's fine too. It's your money after all.

I guess English is your second language, so I am not critcising you when I say that "quirk" is not the correct word for these two things. We would normally use the word "flaw."

Flaw he is most likely reserving for describing your tests, quirks is perfectly acceptable for what he is describing in comparison to your tests. His English is fine.

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Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

xchert Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: Fuji X20 review

Thanks for the very good review.  The only part I don't follow is the comment about being able to keep the NR set high without drawbacks.  I've set mine to NR -2 and I think the JPEG output is improved.

Absolutic
Absolutic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,022
Re: Fuji X20 review

Great review.   Excellent detailed images in samples, I pixel peeped at 100% and they are in line with the sharp and excellent images I am getting.   Up to ISO800 excellent results, ISO1600 if necessary.  The best point-and-shoot on the market Today.    I used to own Sony RX100 last year.

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