GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!

Started Apr 29, 2013 | Discussions
wingover2
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GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
Apr 29, 2013

GH3 at the Portugal Open 2013.

12-35 2.8 / 45 1.8

All the pictures where croped and litle photoshop retouched.

The 12-35 is sharp, focus fast and is more acurrate then my old Canon 24-70.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3
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rsmithgi
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to wingover2, Apr 29, 2013

Nobody says it is not good for any sports. The concern is focus tracking. That can be alleviated in two ways:

1. Capture movement parallel to the camera

2. Anticipate when movement towards the camera will pause

You have done both of these. These examples do not stress the focusing of a CDAF system.

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Brian Wadie
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to rsmithgi, Apr 29, 2013

"These examples do not stress the focusing of a CDAF system."

but who says that you need to use CDAF for sports shooting? 

With knowledge of your sport its very easy to follow the action and capture the moment using SAF anyway

Its not what you've got but how you use it that solves the problem

Nice work here

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Jorginho
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I do.
In reply to wingover2, Apr 29, 2013

Look this is all pretty static. Also, you show what many do not like all too much either: everything is in focus. No object isolation.

The problem with CDAF are moving subject, fast ones. Especially to you or away from you. Birds in flight; the same thing.

DSLRs are much better here, not just, much better.

But the very fast AF in good light here helps of course. I have GH2 and EPl5 and EPL5 is already a bit better than my GH2. GH3 is may be even better. But from what I have seen and heard it is not there (at all) yet.

I really would like to have 5 fps with AF tracking that keeps up and not just jumps to another subject that is standing still. Or not an AF system that starts to hunt when I want to shoot a bird in flight, which the GH2 (again) does even worse than my EPl5.

So: you can do it, but what is meant that it can't do it nearly as well as a 7D or a D7000 or D5200 for instance.

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Jorginho
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to Brian Wadie, Apr 29, 2013

Sorry, this is easy work. The EPl5 wil track this person easily. Because it is not demanding.

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to wingover2, Apr 29, 2013

It focus fast and accurate, even if it is not so good like the Nikon AF system (or other DSLR), well used the GH3 can do sports well.


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Jorginho
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Seems a moot point, Aleo.
In reply to Aleo Veuliah, Apr 29, 2013

With the right technique and MF available you can shoot sports with any cam if you do it well.

The argument mostly revolves around the DSLR vs mirrorless cams when it comes to fast action. PDAF vs CDAF mostly. And CDAF is not nearly as good as the PDAF in a D7000, 7D, 50 or 60D etcetc for this. CDAF is more accurate, has no BF issues etc but fast actions is clearly not one of its strenghts (yet).

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: I do.
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 29, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

Look this is all pretty static. Also, you show what many do not like all too much either: everything is in focus. No object isolation.

The problem with CDAF are moving subject, fast ones. Especially to you or away from you. Birds in flight; the same thing.

DSLRs are much better here, not just, much better.

But the very fast AF in good light here helps of course. I have GH2 and EPl5 and EPL5 is already a bit better than my GH2. GH3 is may be even better. But from what I have seen and heard it is not there (at all) yet.

I really would like to have 5 fps with AF tracking that keeps up and not just jumps to another subject that is standing still. Or not an AF system that starts to hunt when I want to shoot a bird in flight, which the GH2 (again) does even worse than my EPl5.

So: you can do it, but what is meant that it can't do it nearly as well as a 7D or a D7000 or D5200 for instance.

I agree. AFC is still better with DSLR's, but maybe not for much time. But the AFS is amazing on the Micro 4/3 system.

AFC with MFT cameras is not bad at all.


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rsmithgi
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to Brian Wadie, Apr 29, 2013

Brian Wadie wrote:

"These examples do not stress the focusing of a CDAF system."

but who says that you need to use CDAF for sports shooting? 

With knowledge of your sport its very easy to follow the action and capture the moment using SAF anyway

Its not what you've got but how you use it that solves the problem

Nice work here

I think you are confusing the acronym CDAF (contract detection auto focus) with AFC (auto focus continuous).

The GH3 only has a CDAF system regardless of the mode you are using.

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: Seems a moot point, Aleo. / Yes it is.
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 29, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

With the right technique and MF available you can shoot sports with any cam if you do it well.

The argument mostly revolves around the DSLR vs mirrorless cams when it comes to fast action. PDAF vs CDAF mostly. And CDAF is not nearly as good as the PDAF in a D7000, 7D, 50 or 60D etcetc for this. CDAF is more accurate, has no BF issues etc but fast actions is clearly not one of its strenghts (yet).

True, for really fast action PDAF is the winner with no doubts, I wonder if they can get the similar performance in the future with CDAF, but the PDAF will continue to improve, might be hard to catch. Anyway what I mean is that at least for the kind of photography I do usually the CDAF is perfect. If I need to only do fast action photography I will buy a Nikon DSLR, I think they are ahead of Canon and the others, but difference is not much, I am speaking of small differences.


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Brian Wadie
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to rsmithgi, Apr 29, 2013

"I think you are confusing the acronym CDAF (contract detection auto focus) with AFC (auto focus continuous).

The GH3 only has a CDAF system regardless of the mode you are using."

that's me - easily confused at my age

Even more strongly then -

if you know your sport you can track it and capture the action - even when using a system with CDAF (it just isn't as easy as it is with a conventional phase-detection based "fix and follow focus" DSLR AF systems)

This isn't theory by the way, I do it a lot, not track and field but high speed water sports, approaching, departing, at 45%, through balls of spray etc and there are plenty of others demonstrating the potential of these CDAF based cameras with action shooting as well

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alcelc
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Re: Seems a moot point, Aleo.
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 29, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

With the right technique and MF available you can shoot sports with any cam if you do it well.

The argument mostly revolves around the DSLR vs mirrorless cams when it comes to fast action. PDAF vs CDAF mostly. And CDAF is not nearly as good as the PDAF in a D7000, 7D, 50 or 60D etcetc for this. CDAF is more accurate, has no BF issues etc but fast actions is clearly not one of its strenghts (yet).

Agreed 100%.

But will a faster processor work it out?

As we know CDAF mainly rely on the processor's power to determine the focus, exposure etc, than give instruction to the lens to focus and take the picture. I believe soon Panasonic/ Olympus might develop a new processor (8 cores or 16 cores whatsoever) which would be fast enough to make all calculation within split of 1/100 sec? Back in 80's we used 8086 CPU @33Mhz and now, we are talking about a 2~3Ghz quad core CPU as a start....

On the other hand, its seems that future PDAF improvement might be quite limited (already excellent) ....

Wishing one day MFT's CDAF would catch up with PDAF.

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RicksAstro
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Re: I don't
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 29, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

Look this is all pretty static. Also, you show what many do not like all too much either: everything is in focus. No object isolation.

The problem with CDAF are moving subject, fast ones. Especially to you or away from you. Birds in flight; the same thing.

DSLRs are much better here, not just, much better.

But the very fast AF in good light here helps of course. I have GH2 and EPl5 and EPL5 is already a bit better than my GH2. GH3 is may be even better. But from what I have seen and heard it is not there (at all) yet.

I really would like to have 5 fps with AF tracking that keeps up and not just jumps to another subject that is standing still. Or not an AF system that starts to hunt when I want to shoot a bird in flight, which the GH2 (again) does even worse than my EPl5.

So: you can do it, but what is meant that it can't do it nearly as well as a 7D or a D7000 or D5200 for instance.

While I agree DSLRs are superior in Continuous AF, the GH3 is the first mirrorless camera I've found to be "good enough" in this respect.  I did a comparison with a D800 in a tough environment...slalom and GS skiing in twilight conditions at close range and found the GH3 to be competent enough with a good percentage (~75%) of keepers.   The CAF tracked well and didn't get confused with high contrast backgrounds (see image below) and I didn't have a problem tracking the skier even though I have to pan extremely fast (90 degrees in just a few seconds).   My full analysis is here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50625630

I view it like Image quality.  Yes, Full frame cameras are better, but the OMD and GH3 are the first m43 cameras that meet the "good enough" criteria for me to dump my D800 FF system.  And while the D800's CAF is better, it's static AF in indoor warm lighting was abysmal IMO, so indoor family shots with that nice shallow DOF I was paying for in cost and weight was wasted.

The GH3's AF is absolutely accurate...I would have a difficult time going back to a DSLR with all the calibration required.   I'm an engineering geek and have always been very retentive about front and back focus and have been driven crazy with most DSLR systems out there.   They are all sensitive to quality and temperature of light.   The GH3 (like the OMD) just nails the focus every time.

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RicksAstro
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Re: Seems a moot point, Aleo.
In reply to alcelc, Apr 29, 2013

alcelc wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

With the right technique and MF available you can shoot sports with any cam if you do it well.

The argument mostly revolves around the DSLR vs mirrorless cams when it comes to fast action. PDAF vs CDAF mostly. And CDAF is not nearly as good as the PDAF in a D7000, 7D, 50 or 60D etcetc for this. CDAF is more accurate, has no BF issues etc but fast actions is clearly not one of its strenghts (yet).

Agreed 100%.

But will a faster processor work it out?

As we know CDAF mainly rely on the processor's power to determine the focus, exposure etc, than give instruction to the lens to focus and take the picture. I believe soon Panasonic/ Olympus might develop a new processor (8 cores or 16 cores whatsoever) which would be fast enough to make all calculation within split of 1/100 sec? Back in 80's we used 8086 CPU @33Mhz and now, we are talking about a 2~3Ghz quad core CPU as a start....

On the other hand, its seems that future PDAF improvement might be quite limited (already excellent) ....

Wishing one day MFT's CDAF would catch up with PDAF.

A faster processor will help, but there's no getting over the fast that PDAF can know from a single sample when a subject is in focus and if it's not, know which direction and how far it needs to go.

CDAF cannot know from a single sample anything.   It can only compare samples and know which one has better contrast.   Even with 2 samples it doesn't know if it's anywhere near optimum focus/contrast.  It has to keep on moving the focus until it goes just past peak contrast and then move back.   With a fast moving subject, this is a difficult task!

That said, the GH3 does an incredible job and in my experience is up to the task for all but the most ardent sports photog.

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ryan2007
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to wingover2, Apr 29, 2013

Looks great.

Continuous autofocus IMO for any camera is a second choice unless you have to use it.

Using single autofocus to lock onto the subject with a high speed motor drive or rapid fire call it works perfectly IF you can anticipate the action.  I think Baseball, Ice Hockey, Tennis, Golf, Archery etc you can do it.

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wingover2
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to ryan2007, Apr 29, 2013

Thank all for sharing your experiences, I was a 20D and 5D2 user and to be honest I dont miss Canon heavy weight championchip.

The other point of the thread was the image quality of the GH3/12-35 combo, right now to me is unbeatable !!! (size versus price)

Even at 35mm the image is very sharp !!!

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wingover2
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to wingover2, Apr 29, 2013

Another impresive number is 320 shot without only one back focus !!! this is something !!!

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Joesiv
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Re: GH3 - Who says that m43 is not good for sports !!!
In reply to wingover2, Apr 29, 2013

The captured action is great, good job!

I would say however, that what you've produced isn't as challenging for CDAF as people are usually talking about.

The depth of field is very deep in your shots, if you look at the background to the players, nearly everything is in focus, so even if focus was missed, you wouldn't notice so much.  However, if you were shooting with the 35-100 @ f2.8 or shallower (maybe 75mm f/1.8), you could get some more subject isolation, which would stress the AF more.

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Jorginho
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Re: I don't
In reply to RicksAstro, Apr 29, 2013

D800 is not meant for sports if you ask me. it is not very good and cannot compare to the D7000 or the 7D, which I was refering to. Your picture looks good. I have similar pics with my EPL5, although I think and especially hope your Gh3 is indeed better. But the number of keepers is just a lot lower than with a DSLR.

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BJN
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In reply to Jorginho, Apr 29, 2013

The examples aren't challenging action photos.

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