About OSS degrading image quality

Started Apr 29, 2013 | Questions
jk2l
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About OSS degrading image quality
Apr 29, 2013

As Zeiss said that OSS will degrade the IQ of the lens so they refuse to add OSS as part of the lens.

Can anyone explain why? is it the software part or mechanical part? What sort of degrading can we expect if they add OSS into it? is it the sharpness or the contrasts or what we are expecting here?

Also disabling the image stabilizing via in camera menu can this improve my IQ of my image that taken with the OSS lens? (e.g. SEL50F18)

Thanks

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smallLebowski
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to jk2l, Apr 29, 2013

Zeiss is right, but prefers to hide complete answer.

When you have IS in the lens - this means that there is a "floating" element at all times. Now, when you hold your camera in hands - that's a good thing. However, when you have your camera on tripod - then this floating element will do harm, due to that element will keep floating (very little of course - maybe micrometers or even nanometers) and essentially it will result in smudge pixels right?

What we need is parking system - if that floating element can be parked (fixed) when needed (basically on/off button) - then there should be no degradation in IQ.

Also, when you turn on/off in the menu (not on the actual lens) you may be just switching off software responsible for stabilisation, but floating element will continue to float in the lens. So, eventually it all depends if your lens has parking system for that floating element.

That's how I see it - I maybe wrong.

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wblink
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to smallLebowski, Apr 29, 2013

Which Nex has an in-camara stanilisation system like a moving sensor?

I think the sofware is in the camara, the hardware is in the lens.

Are there any NEX lenses (I know Nikon lenses do) that have inbuild stabilsarion software?

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Glenn
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to wblink, Apr 29, 2013
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KM Legacy
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to jk2l, Apr 29, 2013

Decentering of any element reduces IQ. You often see lens tests where they criticize a lens for being decentered (manufacturing error). If I understand OIS correctly, it works by deliberately decentering one or more elements.

I'm not sure that the element continues to float on a tripod, but I can imagine that it often never really returns to the centered position.

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Letsgokoulos
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to smallLebowski, Apr 29, 2013

smallLebowski wrote:

Zeiss is right, but prefers to hide complete answer.

When you have IS in the lens - this means that there is a "floating" element at all times. Now, when you hold your camera in hands - that's a good thing. However, when you have your camera on tripod - then this floating element will do harm, due to that element will keep floating (very little of course - maybe micrometers or even nanometers) and essentially it will result in smudge pixels right?

What we need is parking system - if that floating element can be parked (fixed) when needed (basically on/off button) - then there should be no degradation in IQ.

Also, when you turn on/off in the menu (not on the actual lens) you may be just switching off software responsible for stabilisation, but floating element will continue to float in the lens. So, eventually it all depends if your lens has parking system for that floating element.

That's how I see it - I maybe wrong.

This is somewhat amazing for me... I forgot to turn OSS off during a static shooting session on tripod with the Sony 18-200mm, and never noticed any problem (with over 150 pictures). Since then, I just don't turn OSS off and can guarantee I never encountered even a single problem with stabilisation playing tricks.

If this is luck, then I must admit to be very lucky indeed !

Marc

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Keit ll
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to wblink, Apr 29, 2013

As far as I can see when IS ,whether in the lens or body , is switched off the stabilization elements are 'parked' & therefore should not degrade IQ in any way provided the engineering is up to scratch.

It is a fact that lack of IS can seriously degrade IQ when slow shutter speeds are used & this has been demonstrated countless times in many reviews.

For this reason many people use tripods when shooting in low light for static scenes eg. churches & museums etc. However this is in conflict with the reason why many use compact cameras in the first place , the desire for portability & lightweight equipment. This could be obviated by having either more IS lenses or  better by having IBIS , IS in body. Minolta introduced this facility in camera bodies & Sony inherited this technology when they aquired the Minolta camera division. It is also a fact that the legacy lenses which have made the NEX even more popular cannot be retro-fitted with IS & the use of these lenses would be greatly enhanced by having IBIS.

They still use it in Alpha bodies but dropped it for the NEX series. It is claimed that this was to cut down on sensor over-heating when shooting video & to make the NEX more compact but Olympus have IBIS in their micro two thirds compacts & the Alpha cameras have IBIS & use software techniques for Video stabilization. I would like to see a return to IBIS in the NEX 7N but Sony are adamant that they will not do this.

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seachicken2000
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to jk2l, Apr 29, 2013

jk2l wrote:

As Zeiss said that OSS will degrade the IQ of the lens so they refuse to add OSS as part of the lens.

Can anyone explain why?

In a video interview a while back, a Zeiss representative explained that they do not make lenses with image stabilization because it is impossible to get the tolerances they require.

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mandophoto
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to jk2l, Apr 29, 2013

Canon ageers with Zeiss. They reportedly declined to put image stabilization in the new version of their 24-70 f2.8 in order to maximize optical quality.  That lens is one of the best, bar none.

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viking79
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to jk2l, Apr 29, 2013

jk2l wrote:

As Zeiss said that OSS will degrade the IQ of the lens so they refuse to add OSS as part of the lens.

Can anyone explain why? is it the software part or mechanical part? What sort of degrading can we expect if they add OSS into it? is it the sharpness or the contrasts or what we are expecting here?

Also disabling the image stabilizing via in camera menu can this improve my IQ of my image that taken with the OSS lens? (e.g. SEL50F18)

Thanks

Sure, OSS works by shifting a lens element group around inside the lens to move the image opposite the direction the camera is moving.

So I see 2 places where you lose image quality, 1 from the OSS not perfectly balancing your motion.  It is good, but there will be some error in its movements.

Secondly, you have 2 more lens elements in the lens.  These will work to degrade image quality too, especially if something is out of spec.  Having more elements in the lens makes this more likely.

However, both Canon and Nikon have proved you can make excellent image quality OSS lenses, they both have superb 70-200mm f/4 VR/IS lenses.

Sensor shift has similar issues with positioning or alignment, but not with adding extra elements.  Also, sensor shift can be problematic above 200 or 300mm as it just can't move enough to correct for the shake.

Every OIS/IBIS system I have used has at times messed up my pictures instead of helping them. Most of the time they are great, but every so often you will get some crazy image where the system didn't do the job properly.

Eric

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KM Legacy
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to Keit ll, Apr 29, 2013

+1. The omission of IBIS from the NEX series was a terrible mistake. It forces Sony to put OIS in every lens, or do without IS of any kind. Sony owned the patents for IBIS; they should have used it.

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KM Legacy
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to viking79, Apr 29, 2013

Sensor shift has similar issues with positioning or alignment, but not with adding extra elements.  Also, sensor shift can be problematic above 200 or 300mm as it just can't move enough to correct for the shake.

No IS system can cope with an unlimited amount of shake.

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franzel
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to viking79, Apr 29, 2013

viking79 wrote:

Every OIS/IBIS system I have used has at times messed up my pictures instead of helping them. Most of the time they are great, but every so often you will get some crazy image where the system didn't do the job properly.

I think there is a point of diminishing returns with image stabilisation ; it's great to just get the shot, when conditions are very challenging, or when ultimate IQ is not a major concern .

IS is almost always degrading IQ, IF there is a choice to not use it , but by how much depends on the circumstances .

We talk about sensors and software recording and anticipating movement, adjusting lens elements or sensors in split seconds, and there might be a little image correction involved as well, even with Raw files .

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forest23
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to smallLebowski, Apr 29, 2013

Zeiss do not recommend the use of filters either as they will also degrade an image from those expensive lenses

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captura
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to Keit ll, Apr 29, 2013

Keit ll wrote:

As far as I can see when IS ,whether in the lens or body , is switched off the stabilization elements are 'parked' & therefore should not degrade IQ in any way provided the engineering is up to scratch.

It is a fact that lack of IS can seriously degrade IQ when slow shutter speeds are used & this has been demonstrated countless times in many reviews.

For this reason many people use tripods when shooting in low light for static scenes eg. churches & museums etc. However this is in conflict with the reason why many use compact cameras in the first place , the desire for portability & lightweight equipment. This could be obviated by having either more IS lenses or  better by having IBIS , IS in body. Minolta introduced this facility in camera bodies & Sony inherited this technology when they aquired the Minolta camera division. It is also a fact that the legacy lenses which have made the NEX even more popular cannot be retro-fitted with IS & the use of these lenses would be greatly enhanced by having IBIS.

They still use it in Alpha bodies but dropped it for the NEX series. It is claimed that this was to cut down on sensor over-heating when shooting video & to make the NEX more compact but Olympus have IBIS in their micro two thirds compacts & the Alpha cameras have IBIS & use software techniques for Video stabilization. I would like to see a return to IBIS in the NEX 7N but Sony are adamant that they will not do this.

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Keith C

I second that.

Having basic IBIS on my E-PL1 really seems to make a difference (some of the time.)

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captura
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to franzel, Apr 29, 2013

franzel wrote:

viking79 wrote:

Every OIS/IBIS system I have used has at times messed up my pictures instead of helping them. Most of the time they are great, but every so often you will get some crazy image where the system didn't do the job properly.

I think there is a point of diminishing returns with image stabilisation ; it's great to just get the shot, when conditions are very challenging, or when ultimate IQ is not a major concern .

IS is almost always degrading IQ, IF there is a choice to not use it , but by how much depends on the circumstances .

We talk about sensors and software recording and anticipating movement, adjusting lens elements or sensors in split seconds, and there might be a little image correction involved as well, even with Raw files .

The OMD E-M5's multi-axial gyroscopic IBIS is so very good that it needs to be considered in a whole new context.

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Cailean Gallimore
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Re: Physics 101 :)
In reply to Letsgokoulos, Apr 29, 2013

Letsgokoulos wrote:

smallLebowski wrote:

Zeiss is right, but prefers to hide complete answer.

When you have IS in the lens - this means that there is a "floating" element at all times. Now, when you hold your camera in hands - that's a good thing. However, when you have your camera on tripod - then this floating element will do harm, due to that element will keep floating (very little of course - maybe micrometers or even nanometers) and essentially it will result in smudge pixels right?

What we need is parking system - if that floating element can be parked (fixed) when needed (basically on/off button) - then there should be no degradation in IQ.

Also, when you turn on/off in the menu (not on the actual lens) you may be just switching off software responsible for stabilisation, but floating element will continue to float in the lens. So, eventually it all depends if your lens has parking system for that floating element.

That's how I see it - I maybe wrong.

This is somewhat amazing for me... I forgot to turn OSS off during a static shooting session on tripod with the Sony 18-200mm, and never noticed any problem (with over 150 pictures). Since then, I just don't turn OSS off and can guarantee I never encountered even a single problem with stabilisation playing tricks.

If this is luck, then I must admit to be very lucky indeed !

Marc

My experience has been the same as yours.

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edwardaneal
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this is it
In reply to seachicken2000, Apr 29, 2013

seachicken2000 wrote:

In a video interview a while back, a Zeiss representative explained that they do not make lenses with image stabilization because it is impossible to get the tolerances they require.
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IS can be very good and in very low light with longer lenses and static subjects it can be a life saver, but the fact is that having moving elements and trying to "park" them perfectly at the exact moment of exposure is very difficult and does not allow for the precission of a fixed element.

there is a reason why both Nikon and Canon choose not to put IS in their 24-70 f/2.8 professional lenses.

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Brian_Downunda
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Re: this is it
In reply to edwardaneal, Apr 29, 2013

edwardaneal wrote:

there is a reason why both Nikon and Canon choose not to put IS in their 24-70 f/2.8 professional lenses.

Weight, size and price?  The Nikon 24-70 is already a big and expensive piece of glass.  After all, they put VR in their 70-200f/2.8 professional zoom, and even upgraded it to VRII, and I haven't heard any complaints nor seen any problems with my copy.

B

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nevercat
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Re: About OSS degrading image quality
In reply to captura, Apr 29, 2013

captura wrote:

franzel wrote:

viking79 wrote:

Every OIS/IBIS system I have used has at times messed up my pictures instead of helping them. Most of the time they are great, but every so often you will get some crazy image where the system didn't do the job properly.

I think there is a point of diminishing returns with image stabilisation ; it's great to just get the shot, when conditions are very challenging, or when ultimate IQ is not a major concern .

IS is almost always degrading IQ, IF there is a choice to not use it , but by how much depends on the circumstances .

We talk about sensors and software recording and anticipating movement, adjusting lens elements or sensors in split seconds, and there might be a little image correction involved as well, even with Raw files .

The OMD E-M5's multi-axial gyroscopic IBIS is so very good that it needs to be considered in a whole new context.

And yet people are reporting problems wit this IBIS system.

as far as I see it IS is a tool, when used right, it will help you, when used wrong it will hurt more then it helps.

People need to understand the limmitations of this tool. Sometimes it is better when you do not use it.

Zeiss knows what they are talk7ng about. they make l3nses with very high quality, IS in a lens will degrade the IQ by adding a lens group that yas to be moving, making it not totaly predictable, so it will introduce some problems, like the IBIS of the OMD (and other IS systems)  do.

In a way the tripod is the best IS there is, but not the most convinient one...

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