Fisheye defishing and comparing

Started Apr 27, 2013 | Discussions
CrisPhoto
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Fisheye defishing and comparing
Apr 27, 2013

Hi,

recently I bought the Samyang 7.5/f3.5 fisheye because I wanted to see with my own eyes what can be done with such a lens. I already have the mFT 9-18mm so this lens duo might be redundant and at the end I have to decide which lens to keep ...

First day I went out and took some test pictures (unfortunately the weather and light was not good.)

There have been many threads about fisheyes and UWA lenses in this forum, but a want to show you my own results. This is not a thread about "having fun with fisheye" as such, it is more about the "defishing" theme.

I went to my favorite barn and made the following pictures:

  • Panasonic 12-35 @12mm
  • Olympus mFT 9-18mm @9mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished @6mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished cropped to FOV 9mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished with "Panini" projection
  • 3x Pana12-35 (portrait orientation) stitched with "general Panini" projection

Panasonic 12-35 @12mm

Olympus 9-18 @9mm

Samyang 7,5mm

Samyang 7.5 defished rectilinear (FOV 6mm)

Samyang defished and cropped to 9mm

Samyang with "general Panini" projection (FOV 4,5mm?)

3x Pana 12-35 @12mm stitched with "general Panini" projection (FOV 4.5 again)

My current opinion is like this:

  • The fisheye is very sharp
  • It can be used as a UWA and the sharpness is acceptable like 10MPixels
  • It is very versatile. I made very astonishing "fisheyes" and some UWA pictures as well
  • Defishing rectilinear is way to extreme, needs cropping away 30%
  • Defishing with Panini projection gives very nice "instant panoramas". Sharpness is good enough for screen and medium prints and I would say it looks like 10Mpxls resolution

I would really like to hear your feedback or your experiences regarding the fisheye versatility/defishing thing.

Best regards

Christof

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CrisPhoto
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Re: Fisheye defishing and comparing
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 27, 2013

Hope the pictures are OK. It's not easy to upload pictures to a thead as the dpreview server behaves strange, first time 3/7 were missing.

Reposted it and still 1/7 not there, hope it will work in some minutes ...

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CrisPhoto
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Re: Fisheye defishing and comparing
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 27, 2013

2/7pictures are lost in serverland.

As the fisheye picture is the most important one, here my third attempt to upload:

Samyang 7.5mm

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Mike942
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Re: Fisheye defishing and comparing
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 27, 2013

Shame about the server issues.

Nice tip about the Panini projection - I'm inspired to does some experiments with my Panasonic fisheye as I don't have a UWA.

Mike.

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CrisPhoto
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Re: Fisheye defishing and comparing
In reply to Mike942, Apr 27, 2013

Yes, try it. I used the open software "Hugin" which is very feature rich. One nice feature after importing is that you can quickly dial about 10 different projection types in the preview window.

The Panini projection looks quite natural, I think I saw it first here in this forum, someone posted a panorama which did not look ugly. Reading about the projection's properties and history made me even more curious:

http://wiki.panotools.org/The_General_Panini_Projection

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dinoSnake
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Re: Fisheye defishing and comparing
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 28, 2013

Thank you for this!  I just bought the Rokinon 7.5mm this week and today was the first day out with it in the field.

I downloaded and installed the trial version of Fisheye Hemi and was considering doing an install with Hugin to compare the two.  I believe you are using Hugin for your examples?  My early tests with Fisheye Hemi are fairly promising.

Rokinon 7.5mm, before Fisheye Hemi

Rokinon 7.5mm, after Fisheye Hemi (please ignore artifacts, still using trial version)

Your posts entice me to try Hugin.

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micksh6
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Re: Fisheye defishing and comparing
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 28, 2013

CrisPhoto wrote:

My current opinion is like this:
  • The fisheye is very sharp
  • It can be used as a UWA and the sharpness is acceptable like 10MPixels

I disagree that Samyang fisheye is like 10MP sharp lens. It depends on how you count megapixels. I hope you didn't start evaluating lens sharpness based on that recent DxO lens rating "invention".

Samyang fisheye outresolves 16MP sensor in center area, and this center area is large, 2/3 - 3/4 of the frame, perhaps. With exception of Olympus 75mm F1.8 and probably manual Voigtlanders it would be hard to find a lens that would be visibly sharper in that area.

As for the corners - it depends on how you process them. I use Panini projection almost exclusively because I find straight vertical lines curved to circular ugly, but I vary degree of defishing. With Fisheye Hemi plugin (which I run in Paint Shop Pro) you can apply "cropped" fisheye correction that doesn't fully make vertical lines straight but makes a good compromise in many cases. And you can apply "cropped" twice, it will defish a bit less than full frame Panini defishing. It's especially useful when photographing people close to the edge of fisheye. Full Panini projection defishing will make people fat, stretched and distorted. Partial Panini will do much better, people may look a bit bend but still natural.

You can replicate this in Hugin by entering longer focal length for fisheye - try 10-12mm instead of 7.5mm. Fisheye Hemi is much faster to work with than Hugin. Side effect of less defishing - corners will be sharper.

Don't know what you consider medium size prints. I printed several fisheye photos from the thread below at 12x18" and they are very sharp when looking close.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50922832

I would really like to hear your feedback or your experiences regarding the fisheye versatility/defishing thing.

Regarding versatility - Paint Shop Pro that I mentioned also has built-in rectilinear fisheye correction. It's parametrized, so you can specify the degree of rectilinearity you need. It also enlarges pictures when defishing so no resolution is lost in center.

Full rectilinear projection would make 1:2.4 cinema wide ratio out of 4:3 so it never makes sense. For indoor shots like real estate listings it makes sense to apply partial rectilinear defishing, then straighten vertical lines with partial Panini projection.

If you have time, combining these and experimenting can be fun. And there is also adaptive wide angle filter in Photoshop CS6.

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micksh6
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Re: versatility
In reply to micksh6, Apr 28, 2013

And then there is partying. I actually go to parties often and fisheye lens is irreplaceable at parties. It's the only lens that allows you to sit at the table and capture entire table.

Couple of old shots

1

2

one relatively new

3

Then during the party comes an idea for a gift to friends - to make their pool look larger. This is a photo of a pool that's 8-10 feet wide at most. Looks larger, doesn't it?

4

Everything can be shot with fisheye. Very versatile lens.

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eques
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Panini projection?
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 28, 2013

CrisPhoto wrote:

Hi,

recently I bought the Samyang 7.5/f3.5 fisheye because I wanted to see with my own eyes what can be done with such a lens. I already have the mFT 9-18mm so this lens duo might be redundant and at the end I have to decide which lens to keep ...

First day I went out and took some test pictures (unfortunately the weather and light was not good.)

There have been many threads about fisheyes and UWA lenses in this forum, but a want to show you my own results. This is not a thread about "having fun with fisheye" as such, it is more about the "defishing" theme.

I went to my favorite barn and made the following pictures:

  • Panasonic 12-35 @12mm
  • Olympus mFT 9-18mm @9mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished @6mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished cropped to FOV 9mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished with "Panini" projection
  • 3x Pana12-35 (portrait orientation) stitched with "general Panini" projection

Panasonic 12-35 @12mm

Samyang 7,5mm

Samyang with "general Panini" projection (FOV 4,5mm?)

3x Pana 12-35 @12mm stitched with "general Panini" projection (FOV 4.5 again)

My current opinion is like this:

  • The fisheye is very sharp
  • It can be used as a UWA and the sharpness is acceptable like 10MPixels
  • It is very versatile. I made very astonishing "fisheyes" and some UWA pictures as well
  • Defishing rectilinear is way to extreme, needs cropping away 30%
  • Defishing with Panini projection gives very nice "instant panoramas". Sharpness is good enough for screen and medium prints and I would say it looks like 10Mpxls resolution

I would really like to hear your feedback or your experiences regarding the fisheye versatility/defishing thing.

Best regards

Christof

My opinion and experiences of the fisheye:

  1. It is indeed very sharp and delivers excellent contrast and colors.
  2. There are situations, where you can use the FE as UWA without cropping. (Landscapes without off centre straight vertical lines)
  3. It is indeed very versatile, I like to use it for close ups too.
  4. I use the FisheyeHemi plugin to PS. It just has 3 options, I use 2 or 3.
    http://www.imagetrendsinc.com/products/prodpage_hemi.asp

How do you do the Panini projection? This looks extremely good and IQ is nearly as good as in stitched picture.

Peter

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eques
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Fisheye close up
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 28, 2013

Here an example, at about 0,12m distance:

Peter.

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_sem_
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Re: Panini projection?
In reply to eques, Apr 28, 2013

eques wrote:

How do you do the Panini projection? This looks extremely good and IQ is nearly as good as in stitched picture.

I believe the Fisheye Hemi uses a form of the Panini projection or sth similar.

Hugin produces great results and is very capable but I'd pay for sth that would do this stuff directly in LR (a good interface is needed that's all). FH unfortunately PS plugin only, and the company doesn't seem much alive.

There is a dos batch script for batch defishing with same parameters with Hugin (nona, actually) floating around the forums. The problem is that one projection mostly doesn't fit all images - some look best fishy, many are fine with Panini, for all straight lines rectilinear is best, many are crap with any You don't see the defished preview while composing, that's surely one problem.

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Anders W
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Re: Panini projection?
In reply to eques, Apr 28, 2013

eques wrote:

CrisPhoto wrote:

Hi,

recently I bought the Samyang 7.5/f3.5 fisheye because I wanted to see with my own eyes what can be done with such a lens. I already have the mFT 9-18mm so this lens duo might be redundant and at the end I have to decide which lens to keep ...

First day I went out and took some test pictures (unfortunately the weather and light was not good.)

There have been many threads about fisheyes and UWA lenses in this forum, but a want to show you my own results. This is not a thread about "having fun with fisheye" as such, it is more about the "defishing" theme.

I went to my favorite barn and made the following pictures:

  • Panasonic 12-35 @12mm
  • Olympus mFT 9-18mm @9mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished @6mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished cropped to FOV 9mm
  • Samyang 7.5mm defished with "Panini" projection
  • 3x Pana12-35 (portrait orientation) stitched with "general Panini" projection

Panasonic 12-35 @12mm

Samyang 7,5mm

Samyang with "general Panini" projection (FOV 4,5mm?)

3x Pana 12-35 @12mm stitched with "general Panini" projection (FOV 4.5 again)

My current opinion is like this:

  • The fisheye is very sharp
  • It can be used as a UWA and the sharpness is acceptable like 10MPixels
  • It is very versatile. I made very astonishing "fisheyes" and some UWA pictures as well
  • Defishing rectilinear is way to extreme, needs cropping away 30%
  • Defishing with Panini projection gives very nice "instant panoramas". Sharpness is good enough for screen and medium prints and I would say it looks like 10Mpxls resolution

I would really like to hear your feedback or your experiences regarding the fisheye versatility/defishing thing.

Best regards

Christof

My opinion and experiences of the fisheye:

  1. It is indeed very sharp and delivers excellent contrast and colors.
  2. There are situations, where you can use the FE as UWA without cropping. (Landscapes without off centre straight vertical lines)
  3. It is indeed very versatile, I like to use it for close ups too.
  4. I use the FisheyeHemi plugin to PS. It just has 3 options, I use 2 or 3.
    http://www.imagetrendsinc.com/products/prodpage_hemi.asp

How do you do the Panini projection? This looks extremely good and IQ is nearly as good as in stitched picture.

Peter

Since the post mentions "general Panini", it is probably done by means of Hugin. The advantage of doing it that way rather than by Fisheye Hemi (which also uses Panini) is that you can vary the parameters so as to fit the individual image. For this reason, I prefer to do it with Hugin. I tried Fisheye Hemi but found that it wasn't much quicker and more restricted.

The best for me would be an LR plugin, but that isn't available at this point. I have to leave LR to do it, and since that's the case, I might as well go to Hugin as to Photoshop with Fisheye Hemi.

Some additional examples in this prior thread of mine if you are interested:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50722127

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micksh6
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Re: Panini projection?
In reply to _sem_, Apr 28, 2013

_sem_ wrote:

eques wrote:

How do you do the Panini projection? This looks extremely good and IQ is nearly as good as in stitched picture.

I believe the Fisheye Hemi uses a form of the Panini projection or sth similar.

Hugin produces great results and is very capable but I'd pay for sth that would do this stuff directly in LR (a good interface is needed that's all). FH unfortunately PS plugin only, and the company doesn't seem much alive.

There is a dos batch script for batch defishing with same parameters with Hugin (nona, actually) floating around the forums. The problem is that one projection mostly doesn't fit all images - some look best fishy, many are fine with Panini, for all straight lines rectilinear is best, many are crap with any You don't see the defished preview while composing, that's surely one problem.

Nah, live preview is just fine for composing. Just be aware that corners will be lost and leave some minimal safety margin for edges, that's it.

And, don't shoot with fisheye when there is no need for fisheye, that will eliminate all other problems.

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CrisPhoto
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Re: Panini projection?
In reply to micksh6, Apr 28, 2013

Thanks for all the good feedback so far.

Hugin:

Sorry that I did not mention Hugin in the first post, could have avoided some question marks...

To say it clear: yes I use Hugin. I used it for traditional panoramas from time to time and at that time I was wondering how to stitch a single fisheye image (as the wizard buttons are disabled in single file mode, nothing to stitch actually).

When I got the fisheye I looked closer and discovered that I have to ignore the wizard, select the projection and go to the last tab to start the job.

Also the OpenGL "fast preview" is very useful.

  • Not only can I change the projection and compare it "live".
  • I discovered that I can go to the "move/Drag" tab and move the horizon line as needed. This way there is no need any more to get the horizon into the middle of my photos. I can adjust the tilt effect and bending lines in PP!!

Non-Hugin options:

Good idea to fake the focal length to get different results, I will surely try this.

Sad to hear that fisheyeHemi is a PS plugin only, as I work with LR most of the time.

A defish plugin for LR would be a very nice thing.

Projection:

I agree that the projection type depends. Architecture might look best with rectilinear, nature can be fun with fisheye. Panorama often looks good with Panini ...

MPixel:

I struggle with DXOs pixelmania and with their mFT rating. While I like to read their measurements, I can not understand why the mFT rating is this bad. If I compare my photos with the photos of my friends FF cam, I don't see why my photos are only half as good. Sorry if my post seems to support this strange rating ...

What I meant is:

  • If I use rectilinear projection the borders are stretched very badly and I might have to crop 50%, going from 16MP to 4MP.
  • While Panini and similar are much more fish-friendly and I can easily keep about 80% of the width, resulting in 10MP of used pixels. Used pixels, not DXO whatever.

So thanks for the feedback so far, hope even more ideas will come from you ...

Christof

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CrisPhoto
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Re: Fisheye close up
In reply to eques, Apr 29, 2013

I love this closeup.

I know it is not easy. I tried some closeups with my 9-18 lens and had some nice shots. But with the fisheye I noticed that is hard to get a pleasant background. Almost everytime something disturbing comes into view (even the own feet are quite often included).

I think I will have to exercise a bit to get such a lovely picture ...

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_sem_
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Re: Fisheye close up
In reply to CrisPhoto, Apr 29, 2013

CrisPhoto wrote:

I love this closeup.

I know it is not easy. I tried some closeups with my 9-18 lens and had some nice shots. But with the fisheye I noticed that is hard to get a pleasant background. Almost everytime something disturbing comes into view (even the own feet are quite often included).

I think I will have to exercise a bit to get such a lovely picture ...

Fisheyes are great for wide-angle closeups including the whole landscape, and may produce an incredible deep-focus impression if stopped down (low relative background blur). The Nikkor 10.5mm focuses to mere 3 cm in front of the lens, at ca 1:5 magnification. Most others don't allow as close focus, and one can get extension rings thin enough. But certain Samyangs can be modded for closer focus relatively easily.

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CrisPhoto
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Re: Fisheye close up
In reply to _sem_, Apr 29, 2013

Yes, I can get quite close with my Samyang too. I believe the 0,1m focus distance printed on the focus ring is measured from sensor as I can nearly touch the subject with my front lens. I guess the distance is only 3cm measured from the lens.

Have to be very careful with closeups as the front lens is quite exposed ...

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dinoSnake
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Re: Panini projection?
In reply to Anders W, May 14, 2013

Anders W wrote:

Since the post mentions "general Panini", it is probably done by means of Hugin. The advantage of doing it that way rather than by Fisheye Hemi (which also uses Panini) is that you can vary the parameters so as to fit the individual image. For this reason, I prefer to do it with Hugin. I tried Fisheye Hemi but found that it wasn't much quicker and more restricted.

The best for me would be an LR plugin, but that isn't available at this point. I have to leave LR to do it, and since that's the case, I might as well go to Hugin as to Photoshop with Fisheye Hemi.

Having now tried both, I must agree that Hugin is more powerful but also must add the disclaimer that it is also more user unfriendly, as well.  It suffers from the all too-typical freeware failing: a complete lack of understanding on user interface design.  And the documentation stinks.

Fisheye Hemi may not be the all-in solution but for those looking for a 'point and click' solution to the defishing problem, it does a fine job under many circumstances.

Here is Hugin working on some images taken with the Rokinon 7.5mm on GX1:

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