Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?

Started Apr 26, 2013 | Discussions
EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 6 months ago

Adam Benn wrote:

mick232 wrote:

Adam Benn wrote:

Wrong.  Since the evf is displaying an image from the sensor, which is optically stabilized, the image in the evf is stabilized.

Back before evf's, you were correct, as the view finder was a real view using mirrors in front of the sensor.

Wrong. The sensor is only stabilized at the moment of exposure, not during live view.

I was wondering about that, but some quick Googling suggested that it should be stabilized at all times.  Oh well.

Thinking to my experience though, there must be stabilization active once the camera is focused (half press).  When the camera is idle, there is little point to actively stabilizing.  But I believe that is true of lens stabilization too - the stabilization system sits idle but ready, and then activates when the shutter button is depressed half way.

No, the only time you have stabilised evf is during video and that's a bit weird as its digital and weird fluttering goes on, OIS would cure all this, oh but Sony decided its not necessary it seems, frustrating to say the least as the stabilised video aint bad but as soon as you move in lower light static situations you can see the digital stabilisation doing its own thing.

The whole thing is sad because Sigma OIS works significantly better than the sensor Stabilization.

I called Sigma. They said Sony users call all the time to complain about soft lenses and it just ends up being that they forgot to turn off sensor Stabilization. It's a hassle for them to disable it, but too many Sony shooters are idiots I guess.

They said if enough people call and write, asking for OIS back, they would consider it for future releases.

Write to Sigma. http://www.sigmaphoto.com/about-sigma/contact-us
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From time to time, I point my camera at the right things. This is generally when I forget everything I've learned.

Coincidentally, Sigma has done this only on its DC (APSc) lenses. Sigma puts OS on only three prime lenses on any mount (all three are macros: 105, 150, 180). DG zooms do get OS.

This also applies to Pentax. So, I would say that it might be a made up excuse from Sigma. The presence of OS is also a key factor I consider Sigma (above others) when shopping for a lens to share between A-mount and E-mount. Removing OS is a disincentive and Sigma loses the favor. I spoke to a Sigma rep about it a while ago but he was utterly clueless (but said he will take it to Sigma decision makers... yeah right!).

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LeicaBOSS
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 6 months ago

Haha - blame it on Sony. Of course. I really do believe that they get customer service reports from Sony users who don't know to turn SteadyShot off.

As for these comparison charts... this isn't the right way to assess stabilization. The actual unsharpness due to camera shake has quite a bit of randomness. You can get a perfectly sharp image at 1/8 focal length and blurry photos at 2x focal length. IS will increase the likelihood of a sharp image at slower focal lengths.

The more telling statistic is % sharp photos. Take 50 images and judge how many are critically sharp. Showing one image really doesn't say much.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 6 months ago

Haha - blame it on Sony. Of course. I really do believe that they get customer service reports from Sony users who don't know to turn SteadyShot off.

As for these comparison charts... this isn't the right way to assess stabilization. The actual unsharpness due to camera shake has quite a bit of randomness. You can get a perfectly sharp image at 1/8 focal length and blurry photos at 2x focal length. IS will increase the likelihood of a sharp image at slower focal lengths.

The more telling statistic is % sharp photos. Take 50 images and judge how many are critically sharp. Showing one image really doesn't say much.

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From time to time, I point my camera at the right things. This is generally when I forget everything I've learned.

So...
- It is only APSc lens buyers from Sony (those are the ones now missing), but not Sony FF buyers (or APSc owners who buy Sigma FF lenses with OS).
- All Pentax buyers

And I think it might be that Tamron thought preemptively of that? I don't recall Tamron ever offering VC.

I don't think that makes sense at all. Next what? Canon and Nikon buyers who use tripod while forgetting to turn off OS as advised?

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Michel J
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 6 months ago

LeicaBOSS wrote:

Adam Benn wrote:

mick232 wrote:

Adam Benn wrote:

Wrong. Since the evf is displaying an image from the sensor, which is optically stabilized, the image in the evf is stabilized.

Back before evf's, you were correct, as the view finder was a real view using mirrors in front of the sensor.

Wrong. The sensor is only stabilized at the moment of exposure, not during live view.

I was wondering about that, but some quick Googling suggested that it should be stabilized at all times. Oh well.

Thinking to my experience though, there must be stabilization active once the camera is focused (half press). When the camera is idle, there is little point to actively stabilizing. But I believe that is true of lens stabilization too - the stabilization system sits idle but ready, and then activates when the shutter button is depressed half way.

No, the only time you have stabilised evf is during video and that's a bit weird as its digital and weird fluttering goes on, OIS would cure all this, oh but Sony decided its not necessary it seems, frustrating to say the least as the stabilised video aint bad but as soon as you move in lower light static situations you can see the digital stabilisation doing its own thing.

The whole thing is sad because Sigma OIS works significantly better than the sensor Stabilization.

Where is your evidence of this? Any link?

Anyway I can explain to you why it's not, and no offense but again it's seems to be you have paralogism in your reasoning:

I called Sigma. They said Sony users call all the time to complain about soft lenses and it just ends up being that they forgot to turn off sensor Stabilization. It's a hassle for them to disable it, but too many Sony shooters are idiots I guess.

Yes, reason why they believe in fairy t... ooops: Minolta colours...

They said if enough people call and write, asking for OIS back, they would consider it for future releases.

You don't need that. Buy the Leica version then switch to Sony ( )

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digitalshooter
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Sony could care less about Sigma (nt)
In reply to Adventsam, 6 months ago
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PS: all posts are just my opinion!

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LeicaBOSS
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to Michel J, 6 months ago

My reasoning is simple. When I really have no horse in the game and simply want to know which method works best for my photos. (Sorry, I care about my photos more than I care about arguing with you)

And I...

1.Take 100 shots of a given target A) With "Steady Shot" and a long lenses at a give shutter speed and B) 100 shots with in-lens OIS and the same settings

2. And I alternate 10 shots at a time, back and forth, with a 30 second rest period between to capture these 200 photos

3. And I randomize and evaluate the images 'blind' , marking them roughly as "unacceptable" "acceptable" and "tack sharp" (by adding an EXIF comment)

4. Record the results, by comparing the EXIF with the shot log

5. Run a few statistical analyses. You can argue which method is most appropriate

6. Repeatably, the OIS produces significantly more total keepers and more "tack sharp" images. (t-test is fine for this, esp with p consistently <0.05)

7. It's reasonable to conclude that the OIS likely performs better

OR - you can post a single image from each and draw broad conclusions. I'm sure the latter is much better.

Bottom line is that this method for evaluating OIS is quite fair. The Sigma 180mm f/2.8 APO MACRO and A77 were the lens/body combo used.

If you have an emotional attachment to  SteadyShot, by all means, continue believing. It's much better than using no OS.

BOOM goes the dynamite.

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Michel J
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 6 months ago

LeicaBOSS wrote:

My reasoning is simple. When I really have no horse in the game and simply want to know which method works best for my photos.

And I...

If you have an emotional attachment to SteadyShot, by all means, continue believing. It's much better than using no OS.

I mostly don't use SteadyShot because my primary concern is high IQ to say the least!

So I won't over-exaggerating the benefit of a system VS another one as you does, simply because I don't like it and prefer the use of a strong tripod...

But I begin to use OIS in the film era. The least that can be said is that is a very old and outdated techno... And have many weak points.

1.Take 100 shots of a given target A) With "Steady Shot" and a long lenses at a give shutter speed and B) 100 shots with in-lens OIS and the same settings

2. And I alternate 10 shots at a time, back and forth, with a 30 second rest period between to capture these 200 photos

3. And I randomize and evaluate the images 'blind' , marking them roughly as "unacceptable" "acceptable" and "tack sharp" (by adding an EXIF comment)

4. Record the results, by comparing the EXIF with the shot log

5. Run a few statistical analyses. You can argue which method is most appropriate

6. Repeatably, the OIS produces significantly more total keepers and more "tack sharp" images. (t-test is fine for this, esp with p consistently <0.05)

7. It's reasonable to conclude that the OIS likely performs better

Again you like syllogisms. "Because you find (or don't find) an expected result with a system, then you deduct prematurely that one had disqualified the other."

But does your protocol was relevant? Afaik, it was not. So, if not, the cause was some wrong criteria which helped you wrongly to disqualified one system VS another (but not because it was a pragmatic reasoning, because it seems to be you missed many points what doesn't appeared in your description, and there is a real bad luck that conclusion was erroneous, sorry if that hurt)

OR - you can post a single image from each and draw broad conclusions. I'm sure the latter is much better.

Bottom line is that this method for evaluating OIS is quite fair. The Sigma 180mm f/2.8 APO MACRO and A77 were the lens/body combo used.

I don't know if it was "fair", but I'm sure it was not enough severe.

It seems to be that some people have a worrying tendency to restrain only points which helped defend them own analysis! .

(Sorry, I care about my photos more than I care about arguing with you) BOOM goes the dynamite.

Well yeah: "boom" (if so that was an argument to you) I will stop to participate more!

No offense, but I hope for you, that you could trying to be more realistic.

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WaltKnapp
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to Adventsam, 6 months ago

Adventsam wrote:

RJH1981 wrote:

I agree with Ken. Sony has image stabilized sensors already. Canon and Nikon bodies do not provide IS so it is part of the lens features for those on Sigma.

Hello, it has a button, turn it off, the OIS provides an evf stabilised view unlike Sony provides, to disable it is madness and its no cheaper either.

You have no knowledge that Sigma even keeps all the parts necessary for the in lens stabilization in the A mount lens.

There is an advantage in optical alignment to locking all lens elements in perfect optical alignment.  Gives slightly better images than the out of alignment that is part of active in lens stabilization.

I expect that having stabilization actually working would cost the company more as it would involve more assembly steps and alignment steps.

You have stabilization to use with the Sigma lens or any other lens used on A mount Sony Cameras. Sigma (or Tamron who also do the same thing) can make their own choices, they seem to sell the lenses just fine in plentiful numbers.

I know it's not a deciding factor with me for buying the Tamron 18-270 lens I use, or the Tamron 150-600 lens I've preordered.

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WaltKnapp
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to Amateur Sony Shooter, 6 months ago

Amateur Sony Shooter wrote:

I am fraid you are wrong. Steady Shot only works at the very moment of image being captured by main sensor.

Thus using less battery power as well than constantly flopping around glass elements inside a lens. Which is what in lens stabilization does.

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LeicaBOSS
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to Michel J, 6 months ago

I'm afraid the central issue is a missing understanding of experimental design. Particularly in how to interpret and challenge conclusions.

The stabilization experiment I outlined begins with the hypothesis that OIS and Steady Shot are equally effective at reducing camera shake. The results of this experiment only indicate that with the A77 and the Sigma 180mm f/2.8, handheld at a shutter speed 2 stops slower than the reciprocal rule (1/60sec) and photographing a target 10 feet away - one can be confident (around 95% confidence) that using the optical , in-lens stabilization will provide acceptably sharp or tack sharp results more frequently than using the Steady Shot in-body system. It also indicates that both Steady Shot and OIS perform significantly better than using no stabilization at all.

There is no mention of tripod shooting - because it's irrelevant to the question of which stabilization technique for handheld shooting produces acceptable results more frequently.

The main ways to improve this model would be:  1) To use a software analysis of the images and report blur units (accounting for least perceptible difference, which would require a separate experiment)  2) Test multiple Sigma lenses with OIS  3) Assess the technique of multiple photographers.

This, of course would complicate the design considerably, and only serve to increase confidence in the results and eliminate possible confounders.

Perhaps, as in the last thread, it will take another Ph.D. researcher to step in and explain why this is fair.

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Michel J
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 6 months ago

LeicaBOSS wrote:

I'm afraid the central issue is a missing understanding of experimental design. Particularly in how to interpret and challenge conclusions.

The stabilization experiment I outlined begins with the hypothesis that OIS and Steady Shot are equally effective at reducing camera shake. The results of this experiment only indicate that with the A77 and the Sigma 180mm f/2.8, handheld at a shutter speed 2 stops slower than the reciprocal rule (1/60sec) and photographing a target 10 feet away - one can be confident (around 95% confidence) that using the optical , in-lens stabilization will provide acceptably sharp or tack sharp results more frequently than using the Steady Shot in-body system. It also indicates that both Steady Shot and OIS perform significantly better than using no stabilization at all.

There is no mention of tripod shooting - because it's irrelevant to the question of which stabilization technique for handheld shooting produces acceptable results more frequently.

The main ways to improve this model would be: 1) To use a software analysis of the images and report blur units (accounting for least perceptible difference, which would require a separate experiment) 2) Test multiple Sigma lenses with OIS 3) Assess the technique of multiple photographers.

This, of course would complicate the design considerably, and only serve to increase confidence in the results and eliminate possible confounders.

Perhaps, as in the last thread, it will take another Ph.D. researcher to step in and explain why this is fair.

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.

It's me or it seems to be that all specific factors which differentiate specific OIS vs IBIS was missed again...!

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Keith Hanlan
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to Adventsam, 6 months ago

Adventsam wrote:

All new Sigma lens have Optical Stabilisation disabled, why? crazy.

I suspect that there are several reasons:

  • cost-savings (which unfortunately is not passed on to the buyer)
  • avoids user error when both types of stabilization are enabled
  • reliability/quality are probably a bit better without the extra complication of OIS.

I have both the Sigma 70-200/f2.8 and the 17-70/f2.4-4 with OS before it was removed by Sigma. I believe that the OIS is better than the A580's SteadyShot on the longer lens but this is hard to quantify. With the shorter lens, I see no difference. Because these are my two primary lenses, I tend to leave SteadyShot disabled.

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Keith Hanlan
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Re: Steady shot is better
In reply to OpticsEngineer, 6 months ago

OpticsEngineer wrote:

I just tried out my Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 that has optical stablization just after sunset outdoors, photographing a distant cell phone tower. (nice clean lines to look at)

Which body? Presumably SteadyShot has improved over the years.

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Keith Hanlan
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to EarthQuake, 6 months ago

EarthQuake wrote:

Adventsam wrote:

All new Sigma lens have Optical Stabilisation disabled, why? crazy.

No, the 70-200mm HSM II OS comes with OS in Sony mount, as well as a few other random Sigma lenses.

As for the EVF/IS discussion: My OMD offers stabilization in EVF with on sensor IS, so clearly its possible, would love to see Sony add this feature to their SLTs.

That would require communication between the body and the lens. Since Sony uses SteadyShot as a market differentiator, it is not in their best interest to support such a protocol.

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LeicaBOSS
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to Michel J, 6 months ago

I am very very interested to know which specific characteristics of each system are more important than the results the system produces. It's such a terrible, thoughtless logical flaw to do that.

It's like telling someone you used a very expensive ingredient in a recipe - and it doesn't matter if the soup tastes bad. Conversely, it's like saying you cannot comment on the soup unless you know how it was made. Both wrong.

You are so wrapped up in the engineering and theoretical features of each system, that you cannot remotely accept the value of a simple test of the results if the results go against your intuition.

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Michel J
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Re: Does Sony force Sigma to disable OS in lens?
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 6 months ago

LeicaBOSS wrote:

I am very very interested to know which specific characteristics of each system are more important than the results the system produces. It's such a terrible, thoughtless logical flaw to do that.

No, because some shooting skills may differ according to the system, and maybe it depends of the ability of people to better control a system over another one? Or maybe... it depends to not make paralogism in reasoning at the first sight? Who knows? All are pure hypothesis, of course...

It's like telling someone you used a very expensive ingredient in a recipe - and it doesn't matter if the soup tastes bad. Conversely, it's like saying you cannot comment on the soup unless you know how it was made. Both wrong.

It's like saying why Hasselblad chose the Minolta A-mount to makes five-star cuisine with fastfood ingredients...!

You are so wrapped up in the engineering and theoretical features of each system, that you cannot remotely accept the value of a simple test of the results if the results go against your intuition.

I plead for skills beyond intuition. Anyway, I saw a syllogism again on your reasoning, but for you, maybe it dosen't matter.

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Michel J
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